250 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

I love how everyone in here assume "elite unite" farm pugs because they want to or because that not 96% of the game population or anything. Most players and units are not that good, just the way it is.

By definition an "elite" unit would not see many other "elite" units because the idea of being "elite" is top of the class players. Not everyone can be top of the class so your arguments are flawed from the start. If you are the best or even close everyone is a seal waiting to be clubbed.

Edited by Revis Volek, 30 December 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Who's talking about „elite“ units? 8, 10 and 12 premades, yeah, but elite? Don't have to be.

[Kwea]

TWIAFU, on 30 December 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I am only posting factual info from PGI.

I have searched and search for new updates or changes to CW MM to bolster or rebuke claims on either side.

There is none. Zero. Playerbase is untrustworthy and subject to bias.

We can only go by what we know. We know 12man premade is 1% or less of total group population. That means 99% is smaller groups. Odds are, you will face non-12man when you face a group.

What we need and will not get, is updated Group breakdowns in relation to CW.

We need size and percentage. We need updated metrics to know if we are beating a dead horse or if math does or does not support change.

You have no idea how to actually research things, apparently. 99% of the population doesn't play ths mode.

Late night we have more units playing, so I usually get about 70% hub groups or units per drop, because even the individual pugs have figured out that teamwork works, so they form HUB groups. SOME of those hub groups are made with very good individual players, and they can, depending on the map and objectives, give our random pick up groups from within our unit a good run for our money.

See....what people don't understand is that most night WE ARE RUNNING PICK UP GROUPS TOO. We have about 170 members, or which probably 100 play twice a week. MS also accepts brand new players as long as they are willing to play as a team and follow builds and calls. Hell, 6 of our newest players have 10 or less mechs, so we still have players running trials sometimes.

We could EASILY drop 2 12 mans stacked with good players, or at least one EVERY NIGHT. Put Mahi, myself, Xavier, Bandito, Pyth, Shebang, Veggie, Nightmage, (just to mention a few) and any any number of other really good players in one group and win most matches 48-12. Even against other units we usually win 48-30 or so. If we lose to great groups like KCOM, EVIL, BCMC....the matches are usually close, and we win our share of those too.

But that would leave 2-3 groups with new players, playing with limited mechs with limited experience with no one to show them our strats or builds, so most of the time we don't do that. We drop 8 mans a lot, and pug rangle....or we split our vets into 2-3 groups and run 6 seasoned players and 6 new guys each. And we still win far more than we lose, because teamwork is OP. Always has been, always will be.

NOMAD, if you ever really care enough to want to stop spouting BS, come over and drop with us. We don't get salty with new players unless they are salty with us, and the majority of drops are either hub groups sprinkled with solos, or other units.

Or don't...I doubt you actually want info, it would ruin your whining. After all, according to YOU, units should beg PGI to screw themselves over just because solos refuse to team in a team style mode.

Edited by Kwea, 30 December 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[James Argent]

Scouting was introduced in the same patch as the unit tag/no unit tag queue split. Everybody did that because it was shiny and new. The no-unit tag queue failed because:

A: People were allowed to circumvent it (for whatever underlying reason) by dropping solo in the group queue as long as they had a unit tag, and

B: More importantly, there was a brand new mode that everyone was trying, so BOTH of the other CW queues suffered and the split wasn't given enough of a chance to succeed.

Edited by James Argent, 30 December 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[TKSax]

Mystere, on 30 December 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

I will just quote myself, again:

the problem with CW is not the queues. The problem always has been that it's just a mere skeleton of what it was supposed to be. EACH AND EVERY PROBLEM COMES FROM THAT FACT.

Mystere is not wrong here. The reason Units did not want solo's do drop in the Faction Play before it was released was because of how it was sold. Nobody wanted to have these hard fought battles over stuff, only to have it lost by a bunch of unaffiliated players. However in Phase 1 that did happen.

When Faction Play was first release everyone was playing it. I had friends in SJR who fought several nights to take a planet (wolcott) when the finally won it there was much rejoicing. Until the next day when that planet was turned back to the IS, then grinding it out again, only to lose over night again (mostly by PUG;s). After that they gave up and very rarely dropped in force. There was no way for a small unit to have any real effect on CW, because with CW running 24-7 you needed a big unit to hold your planets. FP may have been killed with FP 3.0 however that was just the final shot in a bad design that was suffering from a long and slow death because of poor decisions made at the outset.

Edited by TKSax, 30 December 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Slambot]

The player base is a bit anemic yet to consider separate ques.

[Lykaon]

Dago Red, on 30 December 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

I legitimately can't believe that this fight is happening again on the forum.

Did people learn nothing from what a **** show it made of things when they got what they wanted last time?

Just saying the past shall be repeated because PGI has already strayed to far from any other options for the "community" to accept anything but more segregation and systematic disassembling of an actual community.

[Dago Red]

Lykaon, on 30 December 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Just saying the past shall be repeated because PGI has already strayed to far from any other options for the "community" to accept anything but more segregation and systematic disassembling of an actual community.

I don't disagree I just find it depressing is all.

If we're going to have a repeat of old bad arguments I'd at least like to see Mudhut Warrior pop back up to shout pages of inane drivel. Could use a good jester about now.

[Deathlike]

In the mode where teamplay is everything and success demands teamwork, we have people wanting the mode to be all about #1 - themselves.

Sometimes people are their own worst enemy. This thread is a symptom of it.

And no... you don't have to join a unit to make CW/FP enjoyable - you have to have friends that are willing to help each other out.

Such is the life of a post-Long Tom atmosphere.

[Tarogato]

Kwea, on 30 December 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

You have no idea how to actually research things, apparently. 99% of the population doesn't play ths mode.

Closer to 95%, based on my spurious-but-best-we-have-available methods.

Edited by Tarogato, 30 December 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Asym, on 30 December 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Spoiler

Earlier it was stated that teams farm when and were they can: the noobs, the psuedo teams and teams that are inferior, not my words but a team member of MS. Is that a fact? Do you believe him?

I didn't record the struggles we had with a make-up comp team. What we did have, in reality and I have no reason to lie, were horrendus fights and people literally quitting in-match and then being blocked. A cycle of we're doing this for the money, oh, I don't like you at all, insults flying around in match, people quitting and then the search for another A level player. Weeks of this to get the 20 matches..... That is opinion and I don't record everything.....this isn't a court of law.

I belong to a team and they have been here since day one (many of them) and have been on several teams. Their stories are the truth as they experienced it....Opinion again. The cycle of anti-social behaviors run amok causing teams to dissolve, collect again and dissolve again.. Alternative account for each team and they have no less than 3 seperate team accounts.....

Proof, always empirical proof for some... I sure you long for good fights and everybody longs for a good game... If I were in charge, I'd give you a separte que and let you determine the entry requirements and then, lock you out of everything non-team so that what you sow in your que stays there: for good or ill; till it proves itself safe for general consumption.... Just an opinion....

So once again (a recurring theme with you) there is zero evidence to back up your "fact".
It's now downgraded to an opinion, no surprise.

Well I can tell you as a fact we don't avoid anyone, ever. We actively seek them out.

[Liveish]

Rework the reward system in CW, which is the main reason most solo player pugs play the mode to get free stuff like MC/Cbill and Mechbays.

Maybe move those rewards to QP and change up the awards for CW to better suit unit play. ( unsure what it could be, maybe units that play the mode could give feedback.)


Make QP 8v8 and at this point in the game life, I would be happy to limit group sizes at 6 or even 4.

[Shadowomega1]

The biggest issue from FP 3.0 was instead of making the que group v group they made it unit v unit instead. Which ment solo unit members would be dropped vs large premade units. That was the biggest issue with fp 3.0.

[N0MAD]

I started this thread after viewing multiple threads in the forums in which many pugs complained about being farmed/clubed, and team player claiming that they want to play good games vs other teams and that they didnt like the farming/clubbings they were forced into by the system. It seemed that both sides were unhappy with the system as is, so it seemed that the simple solution was indeed just splitting the Q giving both sides what they seemed to want.
But it seems this isnt so, from responses here it does seem that pugs do want an arena that seems fairer and more fun for them, the team side obviously doesnt want their own arena, they seem to think they are being punished by being put into an arena where they can play teams like themselfs.
Many reasons have been put forward as to why, low pop counts, the failure of the previous attempt to have a solo Q (altho anyone with any common sense knows why it failed), the reason for low pops are a symptom of other failings in the mode etc, read thru the thread for the various reasons not to split the Q. I was mildly surprised by the anger, insinuations and insults used in this discussion and the harassment along with what i believe is just misinformation.
Then there were the guys with the usual "its a team game, join a group get gud" comments which they been spaming for years which has resulted in absolutely nothing, reminding me of a Simpsons scene in which homer keep putting a screw driver in a electric socket, "join a team get good" "join a group get gud" "join a team get gud", well we can see the result of that, just look at FP, where it ends up entire teams just drop out of a game.
FP has a lot of serious problems, some are just not fixable, PGI has neither the inclination not the talent to fix it but some believe that there are things simple things that might salvage the situation but there seems to be those that have closed their minds and would rather see the status quo for reasons of their own, the old keep putting that screw driver into a socket because surely the next time it will have a different result.
Does the state of FP actually mater to me? no not really, IMHO the game is just bad, but being a MW fan i always hope that there will be a turn around and maybe just maybe one day i can play my favourite IP again and being a team player i would love to play a competitive mode with my friends, FP as is is not competitive, a game mode where casual pugs are thrown in with top rate organised teams like MS can not be considered competitive by anyone that knows what true competition is.
Gents i leave the game to you, by the state of FP i see that you are all doing a great job directing the way forward and you dont need input from others, i will refrain from making suggestions in the future as i see you guys have it all in hand.
PS. I am not blaming teams or indeed MS for the situation (i only mentioned MS by name because their name came up in the thread), indeed i applaud teams like MS for their efforts and commitment to their players, a genuine Well done for providing a service to the players in their chosen game.

Tarogato, on 30 December 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Closer to 95%, based on my spurious-but-best-we-have-available methods.

Math is hard, but let me give you a tip, use all variables when trying to get a correct answer.
What you failed to account for in your calculations is... Alt accounts.. we know there are many many Alts in game and i would bet in FP there are more Alts used than in other game modes, you know yourselfs that there a many teams whos entire membership run several alts so they can use both clan and IS accounts. Was surprised to see the people that gave your post likes, being the intelligent people they are didnt point this out, perhaps your inaccurate take on this just suited their agenda or maybe they just bad at taking all thing into consideration when coming to a conclusion.

Edited by N0MAD, 30 December 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

this topic again? CW is and will remain as bad as it is. if most of you havent realised PGI has entirely given up on the mode. a series of terrible decisions followed by waffling followed by hasty fixes followed by population decreases followed by more hasty fixes followed by more waffling and so on..... there have been many high quality suggestions in years past but they have obviously been ignored. it should be really apparent by now that no real effort will ever go into the mode again, any suggestions should be tempered by the fact that they have to be incredibly easy to implement and have little to no risk of back fire

Since The Dong each change has been far too delayed to address the issues at hand, ham-fisted and demonstrating almost no understanding of the game mode itself (this also applies to most player suggestion ive heard). at this point the 'brand' is toxic and a lot of players wont come back even to try new changes. Apart from rolling back entirely to pre Dong i dont think anything will revive this mode and i dont even think going pre Dong would help. coupled with PGIs abandonment of the mode since the start of 2017 and for the foreseeable future (no changes until Solaris at least) i dont think theres any point in hoping for something new or even different

Edited: for the unit haters the odds of coming up agaisnt a 12 man of skilled communicating players is tiny. by your own stats if 95% of the players are solo how are you getting smashed by 12 mans every game? Anecdotal evidence, comfirmation bias, every fallacy under the sun has been used in these discussions. also who actually believes units have scheduled training time every week? it would be quite a small percent especially now a days. i was once in a unit but left and if i bother to play CW i pug under my own unit as a solo. as for the whole conspiracy of 'big units avoid each other' thats mainly false do you really think anyone enjoys smashing people who cant even stay together? it sucks to steam roll someone theres no point to it.

Edited by VitriolicViolet, 30 December 2017 - 08:06 PM.

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

I started this thread after viewing multiple threads in the forums in which many pugs complained about being farmed/clubed, and team player claiming that they want to play good games vs other teams and that they didnt like the farming/clubbings they were forced into by the system. It seemed that both sides were unhappy with the system as is, so it seemed that the simple solution was indeed just splitting the Q giving both sides what they seemed to want.
But it seems this isnt so, from responses here it does seem that pugs do want an arena that seems fairer and more fun for them, the team side obviously doesnt want their own arena, they seem to think they are being punished by being put into an arena where they can play teams like themselfs.
Many reasons have been put forward as to why, low pop counts, the failure of the previous attempt to have a solo Q (altho anyone with any common sense knows why it failed), the reason for low pops are a symptom of other failings in the mode etc, read thru the thread for the various reasons not to split the Q. I was mildly surprised by the anger, insinuations and insults used in this discussion and the harassment along with what i believe is just misinformation.
Then there were the guys with the usual "its a team game, join a group get gud" comments which they been spaming for years which has resulted in absolutely nothing, reminding me of a Simpsons scene in which homer keep putting a screw driver in a electric socket, "join a team get good" "join a group get gud" "join a team get gud", well we can see the result of that, just look at FP, where it ends up entire teams just drop out of a game.
FP has a lot of serious problems, some are just not fixable, PGI has neither the inclination not the talent to fix it but some believe that there are things simple things that might salvage the situation but there seems to be those that have closed their minds and would rather see the status quo for reasons of their own, the old keep putting that screw driver into a socket because surely the next time it will have a different result.
Does the state of FP actually mater to me? no not really, IMHO the game is just bad, but being a MW fan i always hope that there will be a turn around and maybe just maybe one day i can play my favourite IP again and being a team player i would love to play a competitive mode with my friends, FP as is is not competitive, a game mode where casual pugs are thrown in with top rate organised teams like MS can not be considered competitive by anyone that knows what true competition is.
Gents i leave the game to you, by the state of FP i see that you are all doing a great job directing the way forward and you dont need input from others, i will refrain from making suggestions in the future as i see you guys have it all in hand.


Math is hard, but let me give you a tip, use all variables when trying to get a correct answer.
What you failed to account for in your calculations is... Alt accounts.. we know there are many many Alts in game and i would bet in FP there are more Alts used than in other game modes, you know yourselfs that there a many teams whos entire membership run several alts so they can use both clan and IS accounts. Was surprised to see the people that gave your post likes, being the intelligent people they are didnt point this out, perhaps your inaccurate take on this just suited their agenda or maybe they just bad at taking all thing into consideration when coming to a conclusion.

Nope.

Happy to let pugs go play the whole of FW content in a QP environment with a matchmaker -

Just no LP or taking worlds and such, because they're not actually doing anything that warrants that.

Everyone who does poorly wants to have the standards lowered to make them a winner. Of course they do. They want to do the things they're already doing that lose suddenly win matches. Because that's the easiest possible thing, it rewards them for doing nothing at all.

That doesn't make it a sane or reasonable response or that they'll even get what they want. They'll still get beaten just as bad and they'll blame something new. Until they can play MW5 with unlimited ammo, no heat and invulnerability turned on and then take their terribad LRM lore build out and get actual kills and pretend that's them being a BA.

There should be no casual pugs in FW. The only reason there are any pugs in FW at all is because hardcore pugs, people who'd rather drop solo in Group Queue than regular QP if they could, can still play FW without being in a premade. You find a good way to keep casual pugs out of FW and I think everyone would approve.

Also you're lying, a lot, in the whole thing. FW never emptied because of challenging matches. Ask anyone/everyone in Davion, which was the most populous loyalist faction by a million miles. Ask Liao and Marik who were almost always in a crappy spot. Or Kurita, or FRR, or Steiner - all of whom played endless matches against Clans when Clans were OP AF and still had literal comp tier units dropping in them. It emptied because PGI never delivered the promised content, leaving it shallow and without depth. Then Long Tom, then One Bukkit which made factions totally useless.

So your whole premise is built, literally, on lying and misrepresentation. Sure, pug FW content in QP. Let people play it with respawns and a matchmaker - hell, probably ought to mix Clan/IS on each side to fill matches and better balance for skill. FW though has always been about teamwork. Since Group Queue got nerfed for, you know, groups (so that we'd get all those 'casual players with a buddy or two' who were just waiting to play but it was nofair against groups.... who never showed up because bads still lose to less bads, they lost 100% as much and never showed just leaving group queue a crappy place to play as a group) FW is it for a teamwork environment save for the huge commitment of 8v8 comp play which most people don't have time or energy for.

So, in short, quit lying.

[Tarogato]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

What you failed to account for in your calculations is... Alt accounts.. we know there are many many Alts in game and i would bet in FP there are more Alts used than in other game modes, you know yourselfs that there a many teams whos entire membership run several alts so they can use both clan and IS accounts.

What are you trying to implicate, and what is the point your trying to make by it?

Are you trying to say that there are probably fewer FP players than we think, because more players on the FP leaderboard are alts? If so...

A: what does it matter - they are accounts playing the game regularly, that is the unit of measure here. At what point is an alt account completely indistinguishable from a unique human being playing the game? If more people roll alts in FP, that's makes FP look better. But maybe it's suppose to make FP look better, because FP brings enough enjoyment for those players to justify rolling alts.


B: how many people do you honestly think roll alts? We have absolutely no idea, and no way of knowing - even a poll wouldn't get us close to the right answer. But if I were to guess, I would say probably 1% on a whim, or at least a negligibly small amount.

Edited by Tarogato, 30 December 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[Violent Tendencies]

I don't play FP for the many reasons mentioned in this thread...
If only such a small portion of the player base actually plays FP, I don't understand why they would continue with it, let alone double down with this solaris thing when the vast majority of players really have no interest.

If QP is where its at, why dont we see a full-court press in improvement/development there?

[Mystere]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

But it seems this isnt so, from responses here it does seem that some pugs do want an arena that seems fairer and more fun a safe space for them where they can derp unmolested 24x7 just like they do in QP and be able to conquer entire planets without ever facing any unit who might want to defend them ...

FTFY.

FYI, I only drop solo.

Edited by Mystere, 30 December 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

So, in short, quit lying.

Say what? ok brother, pls point out the lies in my statement.