423 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Koniving, on 10 January 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

And concludes with an ad for Stackpole's "The Warrior" trilogy. Which I don't even think is a Battletech book.

The Warrior Trilogy

• Warrior: En Garde (August 1988)
  
• Warrior: Riposte (October 1988)
  
• Warrior: Coupé (April 1989)

I have read them all. They were also available as a standalone compilation later. Reference: http://www.sarna.net...Warrior_Trilogy

So yeah, they are BattleTech books.

[BTGbullseye]

Arkhangel, on 10 January 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

we don't really have a point of reference yet. mean, if, say, we could see Techs walking around and working on our mechs we could get a sense of the actual scale.

You need to visit the Academy sometime... There's a tech standing under each of those test mechs.

[MovinTarget]

BTGbullseye, on 10 January 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

You need to visit the Academy sometime... There's a tech standing under each of those test mechs.

B-b-b-but how do you know if they are normal people, vat born, or Manei Domini?

[Arkhangel]

HammerMaster, on 10 January 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Let me just say, how much I appreciate the NTH degree that Koniving goes in trying to show a point. Not only does he convincingly type a wall of text how he is correct. He pulls REAL DATA FROM LORE BOOKS/FLUFF/TROs. AND VIDEOS! Sorry to say too may people just wave their hands dismissively with the old adage: "Does not translate from turn to FPS" (well yes it would if you did it properly), but hey what you gonna do? I for one am worn down on attempting to sway the deaf ears. So Huzzah for the continuing effort Koniving. Don't ever stop.

well, in fairness, this is how to properly argue. actually have data to back you up. this is why i consistently tell "Mech D.O.A.ers" to now judge a mech until you've actually fielded it. mean, people've said EVERY mech since.. well.. probably just after the Clan Packs came out was "dead on arrival" yet quite a lot of them are currently solid performers, and highly popular (Warhammer, Nightstar, Annihilator and Bushwacker anyone?).

Why i like that quote from Robery Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes, which was essentially "without data, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, and theories to suit facts." without sufficient info, you really can't make an argument for or against anything.

[Koniving]

Arkhangel, on 10 January 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

also, you can't really say an exact height on MWO's mechs, as we don't really have a point of reference yet. mean, if, say, we could see Techs walking around and working on our mechs we could get a sense of the actual scale. you really can't use any specific mech as a measuring stick until you have something that ISN'T a mech to compare it to.

Google mwo mech scale. Pig provided the scales of all mech in game at the time of the resale next to rulers.
Its the black image with gray mechs.

Most mechs are 14+ with a few humanoid lights pushing close to 14 meters. Most 55 tonners are over 14.5 meters here. Hunchback is around 13.6 as it has always beeb being one of the shortest 50 tonners. Crab grew quite a bit. Cataphract ct is wider than the awesome's ct plus some of both STs (baffling!)

Pretty interesting stuff. And its pgi made.

[Koniving]

Rampage, on 10 January 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

The Warrior Trilogy

• Warrior: En Garde (August 1988)
  
• Warrior: Riposte (October 1988)
  
• Warrior: Coupé (April 1989)

I have read them all. They were also available as a standalone compilation later. Reference: http://www.sarna.net...Warrior_Trilogy

So yeah, they are BattleTech books.

Cool. The artwork on the ad doesn't have a single mention of bt. Or mechs. Which was why I suspected otherwise.

[Koniving]

Am not gonna let all the fluff in the thread go to waste either. This weekend will move it into the bt discussion thread to go along with other weapon systems and such... Accompanying the bt corporations and hypothetical tabletop to real time simulator.

Also working on *not* so short stories based on tabletop (megamek) campaigns.
May do some of the scenario campaigns from "BattleTech simulator" as practice. With a franken mech.

[MechWarrior319348]

Haven't played in a month, was about ready to move on. But this!? Im freakin out!!!!..................... *Look Im freakin out*!! Well damn, looks like I'm back in.

[MovinTarget]

Dillion Harper, on 11 January 2018 - 06:27 AM, said:

Haven't played in a month, was about ready to move on. But this!? Im freakin out!!!!..................... *Look Im freakin out*!! Well damn, looks like I'm back in.

So are you freakin out, or freakin in?

[Magam Flamesmith]

Koniving, on 09 January 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

Meaning that there's variants that carry weapons larger than a single ton.
Meanwhile, there isn't a single Locust carrying a weapon heavier than a ton.

Not to make my first post be in direct contradiction of Koniving, but we have 2 locust variants in game that carry weapons heavier than 1 ton stock (and not PGI made up variants either)

2xLRM5 on the LCT-1M at 2 tons each (a Davion variant interestingly enough)

2xSSRM2 on the LCT-3S at 1.5 tons each

And neither of those is counting the ammunition needed for those guns either (1 ton of ammunition total, for each)

[Grus]

can someone do a dive in the lore and show us what the clans answer to this mech was? and btw* still waiting for another clan 60tonner*...

[Bolter01]

soo many mechs still to come!

[Gasoline]

Grus, on 11 January 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

can someone do a dive in the lore and show us what the clans answer to this mech was? and btw* still waiting for another clan 60tonner*...

Tbh, I doubt there ever was one. This mech was produced after the Clan invasion and probably more designed to fight other IS forces than Clan forces.

Although based on the Annihilator the Cygnus is probably the closest clan counterpart... Maybe some variants of the Mad Cat Mk.II as well.

The clan 60t bracket is a little thin...

You have the Glass Spider which will be surpassed by the inevitable Rifleman IIC in any regard.
You have the Hellfire Battlemech laser/missile boat with MASC.
You have the Lupus as a humanoid Mad Dog with ECM. (probably surpassed by the Hellbringer)
You have the Matador Battlemech will all sorts of hardpoints all over the place and jump jets.
You have the Thresher Battlemech with MASC and jump jets.

Most of them have a distinct lack of variants therefore needing some serious making up of PGI.

[IllCaesar]

Bolter01, on 11 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

soo many mechs still to come!

I'd totally be up for some of those Mektek mechs making it into the game. I know that the way its built is very much not suited for MWO but the Black Heart in particular looks like something PGI's artists would have a field day with.

Edit: I know that it'd never be under serious consideration though, unfortunately. There's already enough litigation with Harmony Gold, don't want to open up more of it. Besides, there's dozens of mechs that are already significantly more popular than any of Mektek's inventions.

Edited by IllCaesar, 12 January 2018 - 01:33 AM.

[MovinTarget]

IllCaesar, on 12 January 2018 - 01:17 AM, said:

I'd totally be up for some of those Mektek mechs making it into the game. I know that the way its built is very much not suited for MWO but the Black Heart in particular looks like something PGI's artists would have a field day with.

Edit: I know that it'd never be under serious consideration though, unfortunately. There's already enough litigation with Harmony Gold, don't want to open up more of it. Besides, there's dozens of mechs that are already significantly more popular than any of Mektek's inventions.

Warthog was my assault jam.

[Koniving]

Magam Flamesmith, on 11 January 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

Not to make my first post be in direct contradiction of Koniving, but we have 2 locust variants in game that carry weapons heavier than 1 ton stock (and not PGI made up variants either)

2xLRM5 on the LCT-1M at 2 tons each (a Davion variant interestingly enough)

2xSSRM2 on the LCT-3S at 1.5 tons each

And neither of those is counting the ammunition needed for those guns either (1 ton of ammunition total, for each)

Fair enough But they're still the smallest weapons of each weapon class.

In Battletech's somewhat obscure "Softpoint" system, you can swap LRM-5 with SRM 2 or SSRM 2 easily, but a swap to an LRM-10 or SRM-4 would be average difficulty.

And you've have to get into SRM-6 before you could even hope to swap for an MRM-10 with ease in BT's softpoint system.
"The MRM-10 is the lightest and smallest MRM launcher. It was designed to easily be swapped in for an SRM-6."
MRM-10 (Sarna.net)

You'd need to be in SRM-4 territory to be able to swap to easily for a Mech Mortar/2. As you need to be in an SRM-4 to be able to carry an LRM-10.
"It has been replaced in most military forces by the LRM-10, which offers five times the salvo size.
With the reintroduction of the Anti-Missile System, engineers revived the Mech Mortar concept. The munitions used by the mortars, though often possessing limited guidance packages, weren't destroyed by AMS systems in tests."

So that makes for an interesting thought, doesn't it? Battletech already has a sized weapon-point system. Its obscure and kinda hidden and it is soft meaning there's no hard restrictions, but the difficulty of the swap goes down by 2 points if the soft points match, That two points can make all the difference between successfully mounting a good weapon, or the half-baked mounting of a missile launcher that jams, laser with excess heat, or a non-functional paperweight.

But well, the game's so far along that even if this could make the game better, there'd be so much against it. Yet if this was something featured from the beginning, no one would even bat their eye at it and would look forward to releases of even 'similar' mechs because they'd be unique. Compare the weapon sizes of the Warhawk and the Marauder IIC... and the Marauder IIC superiority would only be subjective rather than factual.

[Koniving]

Grus, on 11 January 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

can someone do a dive in the lore and show us what the clans answer to this mech was? and btw* still waiting for another clan 60tonner*...

There isn't a specific mech per sé.

But the Clans had an answer to the Heavy Gauss Weapon System.

They call it the HAG or Hyper Assault Gauss.
And it is basically: Rotary Gauss!
"they apparently used similar design principles to the Lyran Alliance's Heavy Gauss Rifle." (Sarna.net)
Also it was the Clan answer to Rotary Autocannons.
Effective accurate range: 720 meters. (regardless of which HAG).
Fully automatic.
Each "Gauss" slug does 1 damage.
The smallest version churns 20 slugs per firing cycle.
The largest churns 40 slugs per firing cycle.

Smallest is 10 tons.
Largest is 16 tons.

Developed by Hell's Horses in 3068, it... just kicks ***.

[Dee Eight]

Adding to the range discussion... remember that lasers do damage via heat...and they also have to burn thru an atmosphere and this degrades the effective range that they still deliver enough heat to deal damage. This is also why under Aerotech rules... the weapon ranges fired in space use the same hex system... but now a hex is 18,000 meters across, not merely 30 meters as with the ground map hexes...and high altitude fighter combat...each hex represents a battlemech ground level map sheet.

Ballistic weapons have to deal with velocity drop in the atmosphere, plus gravity drop, PLUS any potential instability of the rounds in flight (in today's tank guns... APFSDS ammo fired from smooth bore barrels for example are less accurate than those fired from rifled barrels so the "effective" target range tends to be lower). Then there's the question of fusing for the projectiles. Now obviously kinetic energy armor piercing projectiles don't use fusing unless they employ a bursting charge, but for chemical energy explosive rounds... there's some sort of fuse that controls the detonation. The reason why many countries use smooth bores over rifled comes down to economics of barrel wear and the particular secondary munitions they prefer to employ. HESH rounds work best out of rifled barrels but HEAT rounds don't like to be "spun" as it degrades their performance so a smooth bore barrel is best. The british prefer HESH to HEAT and that's why their tanks continue to use rifled barrels.

A lot of manufacturers even today are moving towards self-inerting fuses in their projectiles, that either detonate the round after a certain distance, or otherwise rendered them insensitive so as to not litter a battlefield with dangerous ordnance that might harm civilians, or any of their own forces that then occupy that area in the future. Given that the were in Battletech things like the ARES conventions for warfare (which nobody broke really until the WoB during the jihad) then its safe to assume that included stuff like we see today in various UN conventions on arms over cluster munitions and land mine treaties.

Edited by Dee Eight, 12 January 2018 - 08:00 AM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving, on 10 January 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

Even if you go beyond that, there's actually a lot of variety between ACs. Just within a class you have belt-fed (think RAC), cassette fed, extended cassette, rapid cassette, you've got certain brands that seem pretty advantageous but then have issues like needing to lock the arm carrying it into a position for several seconds to reload or the feed will jam, requiring the use of an alternate feed that requires the use of the other hand (Victor, specifically, is being used for this example but there are numerous others) with a longer reload time.


This is an OLD, old example and the Chemjet Gun shot count is wrong (went by the phrase "few" shots and the image's 3 shot count and tried it) but it shows two types of multi-shot burst fire style ACs (and one with two variations) as a way of picturing how it might work if we fired on MWO's firing cycles.

Ok I guess you're right, but what that other poster said, I think I still prefer single-shot cannons because they're funner, skill based and the like. When I saw your video I think it's a great idea, to have many variants of the same autocannon class, but maybe I think the single-shot cannons should have some disadvantages like heat or less ammo per ton to give the multi-shot cannons a reason to be used.

And rifles are not that good though, I'm sure they have awful fire rates and a measley 9 damage per shot with the heaviest rifle is kind of lacking. Also why are they called rifles if rifled barrels were abandoned in the late 19th century for smoothbore barrels? Idk they seem ******.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 12 January 2018 - 09:10 AM.

[Arkhangel]

IllCaesar, on 12 January 2018 - 01:17 AM, said:

I'd totally be up for some of those Mektek mechs making it into the game. I know that the way its built is very much not suited for MWO but the Black Heart in particular looks like something PGI's artists would have a field day with.

Edit: I know that it'd never be under serious consideration though, unfortunately. There's already enough litigation with Harmony Gold, don't want to open up more of it. Besides, there's dozens of mechs that are already significantly more popular than any of Mektek's inventions.

Unfortunately, there's really only one out of that pack that were made up that are actually considered canon. the Deimos, that Clan Snow Raven Assault. and the Clans didn't really have an "answer" to the Fafnir because it wasn't widely used against them, having been invented to kill Davions. that said, the Clans did have the Behemoth/Stone Rhino, which is a similar-sized mech with a similar mid-long range Artillery role (which is also why the Fafnir will never replace the Annihilator. the Anni is a Brawler, the Fafnir is a walking Artillery piece.)

@Dee Eight: actually, the Kuritans did nuke Helm right after the fall of the Star League. though I suppose it depends when exactly the Ares conventions were signed. http://www.sarna.net...res_Conventions annnd it looks like that happened well after. interesting thing to note, the restrictions on WMDs were so strict, Tear Gas wasn't even allowed to be used on enemy troops, as it counted as a chemical weapon.

Edited by Arkhangel, 12 January 2018 - 09:31 AM.