423 replies to this topic

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving, on 13 January 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

Still. This is a bit more satisfying to me. At least then I'd know if I got swarmed by helicopters I'd have an actual option of defense... rather than knowing my 6 million cbill mech could be taken out by a helicopter that costs less than 600 thousand due to not being able to hit it.

I think this here is the root of the problem. Newsflash, not everyone has bad aim.

[Grus]

Koniving, on 12 January 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

There isn't a specific mech per sé.

But the Clans had an answer to the Heavy Gauss Weapon System.

They call it the HAG or Hyper Assault Gauss.
And it is basically: Rotary Gauss!
"they apparently used similar design principles to the Lyran Alliance's Heavy Gauss Rifle." (Sarna.net)
Also it was the Clan answer to Rotary Autocannons.
Effective accurate range: 720 meters. (regardless of which HAG).
Fully automatic.
Each "Gauss" slug does 1 damage.
The smallest version churns 20 slugs per firing cycle.
The largest churns 40 slugs per firing cycle.

Smallest is 10 tons.
Largest is 16 tons.

Developed by Hell's Horses in 3068, it... just kicks ***.

so a blood ask with 2 of those or a Stone Rihno with 3... hmmm...

I'd still rather have a new clan 60tonner first. I'm more than ok with the hellfire. Heavy laser quirks and some missle quirks with armor and str quirks. I'll take it

[IllCaesar]

Koniving, on 13 January 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

Still. This is a bit more satisfying to me. At least then I'd know if I got swarmed by helicopters I'd have an actual option of defense... rather than knowing my 6 million cbill mech could be taken out by a helicopter that costs less than 600 thousand due to not being able to hit it.

I think there are some non-canon solutions that would still end up finding a way to please most people, at least in the mechanics. The ACs are clearly balanced in MWO on the basis of it being a PvP game, which for good or ill has strongly defined the meta. With PvE the developers can throw that right out the window. It may not be the most lore friendly solution but a strikingly obvious one is to simply make AC preference a menu toggle. If PGI is worried about balance they could lock the preference in at the start of a campaign if they're worried about people abusing it... even though its a PvE game with mod support so its a stupid thing to be worried about. Having players be able to switch on the fly like the LBX is supposed to except for switching between a single big round and a stream of equallysized rounds is another fairly obvious choice, though that might be a little harder to implement. It'd certainly be preferred in PvP over the previous one mentioned but would definitely be considered overpowered. Again, not a huge concern for a PvE game with mod support but one worth considering nonetheless.

I'm sure that if I put more than two minute's thought into the situation I could come up with more solutions that satisfy people. Again, not entirely lore friendly but compromises often have to be made. Personally, I'd be much more interested in making rudimentary melee combat a thing. It would be another disappointment if we don't get the whole shebang of melee combat that we want but some basic commands for the arms, such as swipe up, swipe down, and thrust, would be a decent enough start. I think a baby steps approach to that would get us to well-realized melee combat in a Mechwarrior game significantly sooner than trying to figure it out all at once and delivering something incomplete and probably broken altogether.

[Koniving]

Dont LRM me please, on 13 January 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think this here is the root of the problem. Newsflash, not everyone has bad aim.

Then join me sometime in Battlefield 3, 4, or any other and we'll shoot down jets and helicopters with tanks.

Prior to the current emblem, it was of a tank shooting down a helicopter, as the little group of friends we had were called "Tank Snipers", as we liked to shoot down things from incredible distances using tanks.

But its actually harder to hit things when you shoot many shots to get the same damage. Well to focus that damage. It does get easier to hit things when you don't have to wait 5 to 10 seconds to reload after each shot. So there is that.

Keep in mind, unlike in MWO where all you have to worry about is a minor bit of bullet drop and whether or not enemies go where you want... BT users had to deal with convergence, managing five separate but somewhat overlapping firing arcs, arms that can move independently of one another, having to slip on special gloves if they want to grab things (some mechs didn't even have joysticks, you had to suspend your hand in the air and move your trigger finger to shoot; imagine compensating for this thing not being aligned properly!), foot pedals for turning, slam your feet to jump and the pedals each act like the Analog stick on a playstation controller but controlled by your feet on top of being able to press them in. Toggling weapons is flipping rocker switches. So much stuff...

Do you recall playing past mechwarrior games? MWO streamlined the controls by quite a bit. But mech controls are supposed to be reasonably more complex than the old games. Now try aiming through it, noting that the entire mech rocks and bounces when it works (which includes you, unlike MWO... and MW5 Mercs.. well that kinda bounces the pilot too which is nice. But some of these mechs are described like riding a mini bronco if you're trying to shoot and run (which is why mechs are so terribly inaccurate while running. In fact mech accuracy is neutral while stationary, more difficult while cruising, twice as difficult while running, and impossible while "charging." (all attempts to shoot automatically miss while charging).

Just bring a rifle. Then you can have the power of a PPC in your hands for only 8 tons, with the range of an AC/5 and the firing rate of an M1 Abrams tank.

Because autocannons are for pansies using IFVs.
(Notice the tank is using sabots. Like Mech Rifles.)

Or are autocannons for pansies?

Notice it is using a 'bullet' that explodes.

The point is... autocannons excel at rapid fire and should be rapid fire... or it isn't an autocannon. And through rapid fire, they are useful against anything and everything. Infantry, vehicles, mechs, aircraft, etc.
Sure single shot is nice, but then what good is it with the long firing delay of a Rifle? Lots of firepower sure. But using an autocannon in a single shot format should be part of the total damage the weapon is rated for. For example of an AC/20 needs 10 shots at 150mm to get 20 damage, then firing a single shot should get you 2 damage..

[Koniving]

IllCaesar, on 13 January 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

I think there are some non-canon solutions that would still end up finding a way to please most people, at least in the mechanics. The ACs are clearly balanced in MWO on the basis of it being a PvP game, which for good or ill has strongly defined the meta. With PvE the developers can throw that right out the window. It may not be the most lore friendly solution but a strikingly obvious one is to simply make AC preference a menu toggle. If PGI is worried about balance they could lock the preference in at the start of a campaign if they're worried about people abusing it... even though its a PvE game with mod support so its a stupid thing to be worried about. Having players be able to switch on the fly like the LBX is supposed to except for switching between a single big round and a stream of equallysized rounds is another fairly obvious choice, though that might be a little harder to implement. It'd certainly be preferred in PvP over the previous one mentioned but would definitely be considered overpowered. Again, not a huge concern for a PvE game with mod support but one worth considering nonetheless.

I'm sure that if I put more than two minute's thought into the situation I could come up with more solutions that satisfy people. Again, not entirely lore friendly but compromises often have to be made. Personally, I'd be much more interested in making rudimentary melee combat a thing. It would be another disappointment if we don't get the whole shebang of melee combat that we want but some basic commands for the arms, such as swipe up, swipe down, and thrust, would be a decent enough start. I think a baby steps approach to that would get us to well-realized melee combat in a Mechwarrior game significantly sooner than trying to figure it out all at once and delivering something incomplete and probably broken altogether.

Indeed. Melee combat I think might be handled best in the same way the original thief handled it. If aiming from the right, use right hand. Aiming from left, use left hand. Hold to slam down.

Some games have really evolved this quite a bit in very intuitive ways. The TechManual gave us some idea of how they think it should be done. The pilot flips a switch for melee (specifically punch mode and kick mode). Pilot then aims the reticle and presses the button on the joystick and it happens. That's the basic setup. (Aiming at improvised weapons and punching would actually pick them up).
The more complicated one is you slip on the special gloves and use your hands much like you're playing a virtual reality game.

Patlabor, 08th MS team, Armored Trooper Votoms, Dougram, and numerous others heavily influenced Battletech's development. It is likely Robot Jocks is the original influence of the "gloves" and "hold your arm out" controls. (Side note: Catapillar tracks is in fact in Battletech as an optional upgrade to legs. If you have one or more disabled actuators, you can use the tracks to move around instead as well as to remain upgright. You become unable to fire over 6 meter obstacles, however, as you've lost your 'standing' height.)

Spoiler

LBX is a funny thing, but I'm not gonna get into that. The short end... you're not likely to see single shot LBX weapons either, or giant 'pellets'. Living Legends has an implementation where basically its an autocannon-style shotgun.

A bit more accurate would be an autocannon-style flak cannon.... kinda like the one I put above for an Autocannon. Which that is an autocannon, with a special type of cluster/flak/fragmented ammunition...
...which is the special munitions that the cluster shot for LBX is.
(The standard ammo for an LBX is still 3x more expensive than standard ammo for other ACs, and my belief there is that an LBX is something between a Rifle and an AC in terms of the shots, firing longer shells than ACs do. The shell shown for the LBX art happens to show a rather short Sabot; which is what "Rifles" fire...not autocannons. But the range decreases as the damage goes up, akin to autocannons. A rapid fire rifle with the option for proximity-fused flak-style exploding cluster shells? Fits better than "Mech shotgun" for everything it does in the ruleset and in the fluff.)

ACs in MWO are balanced (if you can call them that) for how MWO is designed, with damage ratings of 3 to 19 times that of the source material (when you consider damage to be a rating of damage delivered in a certain time frame.) They could easily be balanced in any form, though, provided other weapon systems are too.

Mw5 Mercs isn't yet balanced and as such between weapon variants and other aspects, there's plenty of opportunity there... Many variations of multi-shot ACs can easily be balanced against laser weapons when taking another fact I gave earlier into account. With Battletech's given examples of laser power, a single shot at the beam durations provided would barely do anything to iron let alone armor-grade steel or whatever Battletech's armor is made out of. But if you take the power output, beam duration, etc. and pump it into a laser drilling calculator, and then shoot it multiple times you can drill holes into just about anything. Meaning the standard lasers, like the ACs, would also be multi-shot. Though to compensate for the many drawbacks of autocannons such as weight, ammo requirement, projectile travel time, leading targets, etc, you have TacOps' rapid fire AC rules, which allow for 2 damage ratings to be done in a 10 second time slice while lasers only have one. So an AC/5 could get twice its rating, but a medium laser will always get a single rating in that ten seconds. 30 heat is a far more bearable thermal limit, too, given that.

Granted there's a lot of decimal numbers involved if you do it this way. As Karl mentioned Harebrained Schemes times all damage by 5. Light mechs get 4 moves per turn, mediums get 3, heavies get 2 and assaults get 1... but each turn is still ten seconds. So while it innovates, it also stays the same. Just cuts out most of the decimals and you get a bunch of high numbers for that feeling of power.

You're right about mods though. Among my things to mod, include durability of helicopters and tanks and weapon variants. If I can manage it, a new hitbox system too.

I'm rather fond of the Sub hitbox system I came up with. Another thing that makes my design for the weapons all the more tangible, is sub-dividing the armor and structure for a body section into multiple sub sections.
This also puts a big emphasis on making alpha strikes pretty excessive, as you can shoot through the armor and structure of a side torso section.. clean through it... and still not destroy it as you only got a small area where the health was a fraction of the damage you did. This would also allow Gauss Rifles to do what they do in fluff. Punch holes through mechs and continue on to slam into OTHER mechs. Since the sub hitbox system has the side effect of making the PPC...seriously overkill, I decided that after it hits the kinetic and heat energy would disperse to nearby sections until it fizzes out. This altogether makes missiles feel like missiles, too.

But I'm getting carried away.

[Conner Ward]

Koniving, on 13 January 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

It is likely Robot Jocks is the original influence of the "gloves" and "hold your arm out" controls.

BATTLETECH was out way before Robot Jox (which I saw in the theater). Also, when did control gloves get added to BATTLETECH, was this a Catalyst thing? I only remember that there was the Nerohelmet, and HOTAS setup in most Mechs.

[Koniving]

Conner Ward, on 13 January 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

BATTLETECH was out way before Robot Jox (which I saw in the theater). Also, when did control gloves get added to BATTLETECH, was this a Catalyst thing? I only remember that there was the Nerohelmet, and HOTAS setup in most Mechs.

TechManual (2007)
Battletechnology (1987-1989) -- Huh, you're right. It preceded it. Oh. But same year as the PatLabor TV series. I think the third or fourth episode has the gloves. I'll need to dig through again to find the specific magazine's date.
(There's at least two more sources that I am looking for as it has been a while. I think one of them is the Mechwarrior RPG 1st or 2nd edition; I'm checking right now.)

Much of the BattleTechnology stuff draws from the BT novelists that wrote it, mostly from William H Keith Jr. (the first novelist), a woman writer whose name I can't recall, and as I recently discovered Stackpole wrote at least one. They were edited by Battletech's board game developers of CityTech, Battletech Second Edition and third.
TechManual blatantly copy/pastes a lot of stuff from the TechManual when it came to mech details. Some stuff was edited, left out or added but most of it was copied word for word. The entire thing of how the cockpit works... they added the DI computer (which came later on and was copied from another source), but beyond that just about word for word, with the caveat that modern mechs have much more customizability, while the ones prior to 3040 relied heavily on stagnant rocker switches. The later being more reliable under damage with minimal functionality lost if something broke, was damaged or otherwise unusuable. The later had issues like if your button broke it would basically keep you from using everything that button was associated with, leaving you to try and reconfigure your cockpit to make it work somewhere else in order to get the functionality back which got more pilots killed than not.

DI computer: TechManual page 42.

Quote

DIAGNOSTIC INTERPRETATION (DI) COMPUTER
The unsung hero of the BattleMech is the diagnostic interpretation
(or DI) computer. This little gem pretty much acts as
the ’Mech’s autonomic and higher nervous system, and is the
last component that I want to talk about before describing how
BattleMechs are brought to life. The short form is, the DI computer
is a network of distributed computers that monitors and coordinates
the basic functions and components of a BattleMech.

This was added in because of a novel, in which a mech's nearly severed hand actuator was apparently used to make some big plot-shifting Deus Ex Machina, thanks to the DI, allowing the fingers to still move and trigger something. (I didn't read it and the TechManual isn't specific, but the level of detail under "By whatever means necessary" tells me that they drew the gist of it straight from a novel).

Quote

But the DI is more than a status indicator. It can also use these
lines and webs as a back-up data feed to other components. For
example, if a BattleMech’s forearm is nearly severed, the DI computer
can determine the status of the hand actuator dangling by
a thread of armor through data lines in the armor. The BattleMech
wouldn’t be able to do much with the hand because the forearm
myomer groups and structure are destroyed, but it would be able
to communicate with the hand…
I probably could’ve picked a better example. At any rate, this
“bypass capability” enables BattleMechs to continue functioning
even when suff ering from massive internal damage.

Note the entire cockpit section is done in the format of a technical speech in front of an audience.

Also despite what PHT claims about Battletech never having AI... they had it.

Quote

BattleMechs are very capable and smart robots, with most of
their intelligence embodied in the DI computer network. But
they are not truly autonomous. Partly because they have so
much firepower and could cause so much destruction if something
went wrong, virtually all of the higher decisions are left
in the hands of MechWarriors. MechWarriors decide when the
BattleMech moves, where the BattleMech moves to and whom
the BattleMech shoots. Frankly, it is difficult to code all that decision-
making for computers, at least in real-world environments.
This, despite claims to the contrary by…are they here? Kaumberg
Komp Quarterly journalists?
Anyway, the Terran Hegemony managed independent operations
for its WarShip-sized Caspar robots, but even those
had shortcomings that precluded their use in ’Mechs. So don’t
worry, folks; the MechWarrior isn’t just a safety system preventing
BattleMechs from taking over us puny organics.

Warship sized autonomous robots. O.o; Yep.
You heard it here.
Also from Kell Hounds mission scenarios:
http://www.sarna.net...The_Kell_Hounds
First Published: 1988. Yes. Battletech had Artificial Intelligence. (The warships would be the more advanced, but even softer AI; you got Mechs and security robots. So yeah, ha, PHT, saying I can't put 10 ton rudimentary AI target/test drones in my Battletech campaign because AI is not "canon." Take that.

Security robots controlled by their own AI. Long before "The Broken." And then the Terran Hegemony's warship sized robots (that did have AI, and apparently 'problems' with said AI that had them verge away from 'true' AI use, but it DID exist! As opposed to claims that it doesn't. Or Battletech Wiki's thing about how computers take up entire rooms; untrue, the slot size of building rules is not directly indicative of size but of fragility. AC/2s are quite a bit bigger than small lasers but take the same number of slots, and UAC/2s are not four times bigger than AC/2s.)


Did Macross/Robotech have the gloves?
It could also be that FASA came up with it first, or got it from one of the other many influences. I confess I fell asleep watching Dougram. And then there's influences which draws some of the old mechs that I haven't even seen yet.

08th ms team apparently gave influence much later, probably when the Blind Rules came to play, as seismic sensors and such became a bigger thing with real use.

Control gloves was more of a "Golden Age" technology. Older mechs are the ones that generally had them. The Thunderbolt is one. Hunchback is another. Wolverine, Griffin and Phoenix Hawk were the mechs that actually used them in novels, however. It was apparently a thing for Brawlers to drop their AC/5, dawn the gloves and then brawl enemies in advanced melee.

This is before it became a more common practice to mount weapons onto mechs permanently rather than have them be jettison capable, due to weapon theft.

Still digging but will use a separate post.

Edited by Koniving, 14 January 2018 - 08:00 AM.

[Koniving]

TechManual Page 40.

Quote

When hand actuators are present on a ’Mech, most of their
actions require little input from the MechWarrior. As I’ll describe
later, ’Mechs generally have enough intelligence to recognize a
simple “grab command” as aimed by a control stick and crosshairs,
and can thus pick up improvised clubs or cargo without
detailed input from the MechWarrior. Punching is trivial: click the
punch mode switch, aim the crosshairs, and pull the punch trigger.
Ditto for using clubs and hatchets. For fine hand manipulations,
sensors built into the gloves of MechWarriors or separate
waldo gloves can allow a ’Mech to mimic the gestures of its
MechWarriors, at least when the glove sensors are activated.

21 magazines and most don't search by word.. meh.

Side note: Saw the BT compendium and jumped on it to see if that was one of the other sources (it'd make sense).
And immediately standing out are numerous pieces of excellent Battletech art of the Unseen.
Such as this Marauder.

There's also a Thunderbolt, whose head looks like a Knight's Helmet, but otherwise it's clearly a Thundebrolt.

And then there's this. Is this a Stinger?

Can anyone identify this mech?

The wings suggest Phoenix Hawk. The head looks like a wide Stinger head.

Mackie?

Spider. Definitely spider.

Dude... the art...
I think I'm gonna be busy for a little while..
Examples of good mech art are really rare, and yes there's problems (Marauder's legs, the Jenner's seemingly bent backwards leg on the title, numerous others, but I don't think I can find better examples of the classic designs than these.. Time to do some 3D modeling while the motivation's here.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 January 2018 - 08:17 AM.

[HammerMaster]

As per my previous statement. Koniving's walls of text continue to state what's obvious to me. A new thread should be started and named: "What's in the books and missing from MWO", by Koniving.

[Koniving]

HammerMaster, on 14 January 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

As per my previous statement. Koniving's walls of text continue to state what's obvious to me. A new thread should be started and named: "What's in the books and missing from MWO", by Koniving.

Yeah.

I'm gonna get on that. After I finish doing what I can to model the Spider in 3D...probably tomorrow. (also that mech I mistook for the Stinger is apparently the Crusader..with less bulky guantlets. Looks pretty tasteful here.)

[Buenaventura]

While you're digging through old stuff, I seem to remember an IS mech, in the 30-40t area, fast, DHS, armed with a good dozen standard small lasers and a few mediums. Sandpiper maybe? Sometimes hard to remember stuff from 20 years ago, especially if you read it just once.

[Koniving]

Buenaventura, on 14 January 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

While you're digging through old stuff, I seem to remember an IS mech, in the 30-40t area, fast, DHS, armed with a good dozen standard small lasers and a few mediums. Sandpiper maybe? Sometimes hard to remember stuff from 20 years ago, especially if you read it just once.

Gimme more details than that, you just described most 30 to 40 ton mechs (DHS being the only exception, but just about every mech has some variant with them)

A body shape, at least.

[Arkhangel]

Koniving, on 14 January 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

TechManual Page 40.


21 magazines and most don't search by word.. meh.

Side note: Saw the BT compendium and jumped on it to see if that was one of the other sources (it'd make sense).
And immediately standing out are numerous pieces of excellent Battletech art of the Unseen.
Such as this Marauder.

There's also a Thunderbolt, whose head looks like a Knight's Helmet, but otherwise it's clearly a Thundebrolt.

And then there's this. Is this a Stinger?

Can anyone identify this mech?

The wings suggest Phoenix Hawk. The head looks like a wide Stinger head.

Mackie?

Spider. Definitely spider.

Dude... the art...
I think I'm gonna be busy for a little while..
Examples of good mech art are really rare, and yes there's problems (Marauder's legs, the Jenner's seemingly bent backwards leg on the title, numerous others, but I don't think I can find better examples of the classic designs than these.. Time to do some 3D modeling while the motivation's here.)

The "Spider" could also be a Venom. it's an uptonned version of the Spider that bumped it up to 35 tons, and effectively doubled its firepower: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Venom

[Koniving]

Arkhangel, on 14 January 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

The "Spider" could also be a Venom. it's an uptonned version of the Spider that bumped it up to 35 tons, and effectively doubled its firepower: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Venom

Interesting theory and I love being introduced to new mechs, but...

Venom comes from the 3055 TRO as its debut appearance, first published in 1992. The BT compendium is published in 1990.

Furthermore:
The most distinctive feature of the Spider and what gives it the Mech's name is the spider-web like plating on the chest.

The Venom's chest plating...

this Sarna image is the same as that in TRO 3055.

And its other artwork all show the same chest plating pattern, as well as a very unique head.

Spiders are unique in being the only mech with the spider web chest pattern.


This image always bugged me. I know that the Spider isn't terribly big, but this seems like an iffy set of proportions. I know the spider's cockpit is cramped, cannot be ejected from and if I'm not confusing it for another mech then a pilot needs help getting out (but not in)... but uh... yeah. o.O;

Cobra Commander mask. Check. Spider webs. Check. Wings on some models. Check.

I should note the artist has taken liberties with the heads of mechs, as I mentioned the Thunderbolt has a knight's helmet, and the Marauder..

is different.

Edited by Koniving, 14 January 2018 - 01:16 PM.

[Laser Kiwi]

Mackie? Yes Mackie, 100 tonner with a 360 engine that went at 54 kph due to inefficiencies.

[Arkhangel]

Laser Kiwi, on 14 January 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

Mackie? Yes Mackie, 100 tonner with a 360 engine that went at 54 kph due to inefficiencies.

It was also the first Battlemech literally ever, so it shouldn't be judged too harshly, especially when you look at the later variants when better tech came along and Mechs became commonplace (the Banshee being among the first notable "covered in guns" Assaults, for instance). Near the end of their utility, the Mackie was loading out dual PPcs, an AC/20 and a pair of mediums, which is over twice the fire power it originally carried, bringing it a lot more in line with the Assault Mechs we know. Also, one other thing should be noted. Mackies had the equivalent of an entire Locust's weight in armor. they might not have been fast, but they sure as hell were durable.

Edited by Arkhangel, 14 January 2018 - 01:54 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Arkhangel, on 14 January 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

It was also the first Battlemech literally ever, so it shouldn't be judged too harshly

...And if that picture is any indication, having crotch lazors would kinda make it dead in MWO, unless your enemies are unable to aim due to tearing up in laughter...

[K19]

https://www.devianta...ackie-303563822


This is ugly ... But it's the true art to mech ... Why the PGI gets so far from the extreme model of combat between mech and are functional and not this crap was made it looks more "arcade than a simulator" the standard weapons and a beautiful joke ... One day I play the real MW.

[Buenaventura]

Koniving, on 14 January 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

Gimme more details than that, you just described most 30 to 40 ton mechs (DHS being the only exception, but just about every mech has some variant with them)

A body shape, at least.

Humanoid. 2x ML in each arm, 13 SL (6 per side torso, 1 in head or CT). 7/11 or faster, no JJs.

[Koniving]

Buenaventura, on 14 January 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Humanoid. 2x ML in each arm, 13 SL (6 per side torso, 1 in head or CT). 7/11 or faster, no JJs.

That certainly is unique. Sounds like the IS version of a Piranha.