325 replies to this topic

[Honeybadgers]

STOP MAKING CLAN TECH OBJECTIVELY WORSE EVERY SINGLE PATCH.

This is the laziest, least fun way to balance. Our guns are already un-f**king-believably hot, to the point where we have ZERO sustainability, which makes medium and short range fights downright impossible when held against IS's HEAVILY quirked mechs that also run cooler, faster recharging, more precisely accurate guns. Our benefits? more range and lighter weight, which makes boating a thing, which we can't do, due to your damned ghost heat.

I don't disagree that clan mechs do well outside of 600m, but inside that range, we just get steamrolled, and at long range we don't even do THAT well since IS mechs now have the ERLL and can fire three at a time, which we cannot. And this game heavily favors brawling these days since the gauss ppc nerf.

All this patch is saying is "hey remember the supernova, warhawk, laser vomit MAD2C, nova, nova cat, most versions of the line backer, the actually useful arctic cheetah, the viper, the ice ferret, most variants of the shadow cat, the laser boat hunchback 2c, support lasers for the mad dog, close range timber builds, summoner PPC snipers, most variants of the hellbringer, executioner, gargoyle, and the laser focused kodiak are all made DRAMATICALLY worse now, and we're getting nothing return. My mechs do not feel overpowered at all. Heavy lasers were kind of fun in that we could run a big burst burn that we had TWO shots with before overheating, but now we don't even have that because you cannot figure out a way to balance these damn guns without just giving clan way too many of them and then not letting us use them at all.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 20 January 2018 - 09:16 PM.

[Honeybadgers]

mdmzero0, on 20 January 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

Man, you clanners are priceless. Please, PLEASE switch to IS mechs for even just a short while. Maybe it'll give you all some perspective.

My time spent in IS mechs has taught me that IS mechs are simply more fun. I'm sick of all this argument about pure damage being the end-all.

[Y E O N N E]

Dee Eight, on 20 January 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Yes on the boating issue... no on the damage output of the cSPL... it never should have been six at any stage.

Sure, but 4 is just not enough.

[Big Tin Man]

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

STOP MAKING CLAN TECH OBJECTIVELY WORSE EVERY SINGLE PATCH.

This is the laziest, least fun way to balance. Our guns are already un-f**king-believably hot, to the point where we have ZERO sustainability, which makes medium and short range fights downright impossible when held against IS's HEAVILY quirked mechs that also run cooler, faster recharging, more precisely accurate guns. Our benefits? more range and lighter weight, which makes boating a thing, which we can't do, due to your damned ghost heat.

I don't disagree that clan mechs do well outside of 600m, but inside that range, we just get steamrolled, and at long range we don't even do THAT well since IS mechs now have the ERLL and can fire three at a time, which we cannot. And this game heavily favors brawling these days since the gauss ppc nerf.

All this patch is saying is "hey remember the supernova, warhawk, laser vomit MAD2C, nova, nova cat, most versions of the line backer, the actually useful arctic cheetah, the viper, the ice ferret, most variants of the shadow cat, the laser boat hunchback 2c, support lasers for the mad dog, close range timber builds, summoner PPC snipers, most variants of the hellbringer, executioner, gargoyle, and the laser focused kodiak are all made DRAMATICALLY worse now, and we're getting nothing return. My mechs do not feel overpowered at all. Heavy lasers were kind of fun in that we could run a big burst burn that we had TWO shots with before overheating, but now we don't even have that because you cannot figure out a way to balance these damn guns without just giving clan way too many of them and then not letting us use them at all.

The list of IS mechs that have been the best in the game and got nerfed into oblivion is longer. It's the circle of life man.

[Honeybadgers]

Big Tin Man, on 20 January 2018 - 10:35 PM, said:

The list of IS mechs that have been the best in the game and got nerfed into oblivion is longer. It's the circle of life man.

I genuinely don't give a crap about what's competitive or not. What I care about is fun. And overheating on my second salvo and never feeling like I'm able to put down a reasonable amount of my firepower because my heat dissipation is so horrible, no matter how carefully I build my mech (because when I try to run smaller lasers on something like a nova cat or supernova I run into space issues) Is just not FUN.

I don't care that the Yen Lo Wang isn't a meta mech. I play it because it's unbelievably fun. I feel like all my clan mechs are pretty much relegated to missile and dakka spam or long range sniping. I very rarely swap across to a clan mech and see someone running a totally off the wall fun build that isn't roasting its own *** off, and yet I see crazy fun looking balanced heat builds on IS mechs all the time. I put two light gauss, two MPL and two ERML on a marauder with a light 295, a targeting 2, and 2 double heat sinks. It's got a whopping 38 damage alpha. But it's so, SO fun. Snap shots like a monster, tough, and it can stay in the fight forever, I get 5-10 salvos before overheating. I run a snub nose PPC, 4 MPL and an MRM40 on my MAD-5D and it doesn't even overheat, but god help me if I ran an ERPPC 2 SRM 6 and 4 MPL on any clan mech, it'd be awfully hot.

I wish I could get in close and hold my own with ballistics, but in close range, the increased firepower a clan mech can theoretically bring is vastly outweighed by the IS quirks because IS mechs have toughness quirks, and the tonnage difference between an IS 2x LBX10 and a clan LBX10 is 2 tons. Sure, that's two medium lasers, but an IS mech can run 4-6 medium lasers and not be absolutely melting, whereas a clan mech running 4-6 mediums is going to be unbelievably hot.|

I think clan mechs are due for a little quirkening. Give the nova cat and supernova some proper heat reduction. Let certain assault mechs fire 6 heavy mediums or 8 regular mediums.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 21 January 2018 - 02:12 AM.

[Delta1262 Scorch]

Somewhy here i was remembering those days few years ago, when MWO had patch/updates each 2 weeks, and actually interesting and somewhat uniue events besides regular that came with each mechpack release. I was even showing GPIs systematic work as an example to why people should play this game, and why it has much better potential to improve with time then many of those similar tank projects, and other.
Then PGI decided to change sthe shedule and make updates more deep and serious, but 1 per month. It was like that from 3 to maybe 5 months, but now everytime you look at the patchnotes, is it just feels or there are really less changes and work done then it was in those 'update per 2 weeks'? Then i wonder why, not because of MWO, because someone on the mechcon said that projects wouldn't slow each other, and it started much before the whole MW5 announcements. And now in those terms you can't not only say that it's not like one of those projects so it worth to try,play,return. You don't even shure why are you still hope for something and playing it.

P.S: And what with that Stalker? Just curious, it's kinda one of the first mechs in the game, yet it look like he's getting model fixes systematically, one after another. Like each 2 updates or something like that? I can't be sure about that, but i remember reading about Stalker's model fixes in patchnote numerous amount of times. It feels like by now it's completely made of fixes.

[Luminis]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

I wish I could get in close and hold my own with ballistics, but in close range, the increased firepower a clan mech can theoretically bring is vastly outweighed by the IS quirks because IS mechs have toughness quirks, and the tonnage difference between an IS 2x LBX10 and a clan LBX10 is 2 tons. Sure, that's two medium lasers, but an IS mech can run 4-6 medium lasers and not be absolutely melting, whereas a clan mech running 4-6 mediums is going to be unbelievably hot.|

Got curious about the whole brawling thing. Went over to the MWO loadout simulator (quite the nifty tool, by the way) and and threw some Clan vs. IS brawlers at it...

Victor vs. Scorch:



Cyclops vs. MCII-2

[Y E O N N E]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

I genuinely don't give a crap about what's competitive or not. What I care about is fun. And overheating on my second salvo and never feeling like I'm able to put down a reasonable amount of my firepower because my heat dissipation is so horrible

Dude...

The IS have alphas that cap out at 57 with lasers with absolutely terrible dissipation. Many stop at around 45 because going higher is just too hot for them to handle or because they are out of hardpoints. The 65 ton RGH-3A stops at 47, for example.

You can get to 42 with just six cERML on a Hellbringer and up to 31, 32 DHS. Heat? What heat?

You want the big 64-78 alphas, you get the big spike to go with it. If you are feeling like you can't get damage out, or that something like 42 isn't high enough, thank the other Clan 'Mechs bigger than you for making you feel inadequate.

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 02:08 AM, said:

I think clan mechs are due for a little quirkening. Give the nova cat and supernova some proper heat reduction. Let certain assault mechs fire 6 heavy mediums or 8 regular mediums.

You are completely off your rocker.

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

My time spent in IS mechs has taught me that IS mechs are simply more fun. I'm sick of all this argument about pure damage being the end-all.

Then take a damage reduction to get the handling back. Until both sides have that firepower, you don't get both on one.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 January 2018 - 03:56 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

All of you Clan apologists posting up how "crippling" this heat change is... I have a question. Have ANY of you actually done the numbers/maths behind it?

Now I already know the answer is no, because if you did you would realise this poses basically no really discernible threat to the best weapons in the game right now - Clan Energy.

If you actually want to educate yourselves on this change rather than flutter about like a bunch of rustled chickens - start READING FROM HERE. You can see the actual numbers over two separate areas and well, Clan Energy will still be king. You can all sleep easy tonight that nothing has really changed, in fact pretty much all of it is unchanged when you're talking 0.2 sec more to cool off... Whoopdeeedoo.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 03:49 AM.

[MovinTarget]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

All of you Clan apologists posting up how "crippling" this heat change is... I have a question. Have ANY of you actually done the numbers/maths behind it?

Now I already know the answer is no, because if you did you would realise this poses basically no really discernible threat to the best weapons in the game right now - Clan Energy.

If you actually want to educate yourselves on this change rather than flutter about like a bunch of rustled chickens - start READING FROM HERE. You can see the actual numbers over two separate areas and well, Clan Energy will still be king. You can all sleep easy tonight that nothing has really changed, in fact pretty much all of it is unchanged when you're talking 0.2 sec more to cool off... Whoopdeeedoo.

But I needz moar salt for mah popcornz!

[Doctor Dinosaur]

The problem is not the MP nerf. Or the PPC nerf. The problem is the AC nerfs, the missile nerfs, the MG nerfs, the gauss nerf, the laser nerfs ADDITIONALLY to the XL nerf and all the buffs to IS.
I want fricking Snubs and MRM, too.

EDIT: Don't forget skills are less effective for clans, also I FEEL (might be wrong though!) that the engine desync was a bigger hit to clans than to IS.

Edited by Doctor Dinosaur, 21 January 2018 - 04:05 AM.

[Daggett]

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

This is the laziest, least fun way to balance. Our guns are already un-f**king-believably hot, to the point where we have ZERO sustainability, which makes medium and short range fights downright impossible when held against IS's HEAVILY quirked mechs that also run cooler, faster recharging, more precisely accurate guns. Our benefits? more range and lighter weight, which makes boating a thing, which we can't do, due to your damned ghost heat.

If you want cool mechs stop putting big guns into your abundance hardpoints and switch over to lighter ones with tons of DHS.
Yes, clan guns are hot, but their DHS are also more compact. You need to strike a balance between firepower and cooling.

You basically have two choices: You either use light weapons like medium (pulse) lasers and lots of DHS to get incredible heat sustainability or you mix in heavier weapons to sacrifice sustainability for more alpha. And with 60+ alphas it is clear that you can't and should not be able to fire this more than a few times before overheating. Go down to 40pts alphas and pack DHS instead and you will have NO problems with heat sustainability.

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

*insert way too long list of mechs* are all made DRAMATICALLY worse now, and we're getting nothing return. My mechs do not feel overpowered at all.

And you (like many others here) are DRAMATICALLY overestimating the heat-gen nerf. We lose only 2.1% maximum. And since many builds don't use all nodes, the loss is even less severe. This won't turn ANY build from good to bad, in fact i don't think that i will even recognize it on most of my mechs.

Clans are currently VERY heat-efficient if you build them right, so i can indeed understand this small nerf. Maybe it's even not enough.

And i say that as someone who runs clan mechs much more often than IS mechs. Clan is not underperforming and this nerf will not change that.

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

Heavy lasers were kind of fun in that we could run a big burst burn that we had TWO shots with before overheating, but now we don't even have that because you cannot figure out a way to balance these damn guns without just giving clan way too many of them and then not letting us use them at all.

A minor nerf of 2.1% will not stop anyone from doing 2 big alphas. Why are you guys crying so loud before even trying things out?

A typical clan laser vomit (2xHeavy Larges + 6 Medium lasers) generates 69.8 heat. With all nodes unlocked this goes down to 62.5. With the nerf you will generate 63.94. That's a difference of just 1.44 heat. I'm sure your 25+ DHS can handle this, they will dissipate this in less than 0.3s.

Have less than 25 DHS on such a build? You are probably doing it wrong anyway.

Edited by Daggett, 21 January 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Honeybadgers, on 20 January 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

This is the laziest, least fun way to balance. Our guns are already un-f**king-believably hot, to the point where we have ZERO sustainability, which makes medium and short range fights downright impossible when held against IS's HEAVILY quirked mechs that also run cooler, faster recharging, more precisely accurate guns. Our benefits? more range and lighter weight, which makes boating a thing, which we can't do, due to your damned ghost heat.

If you build your clan mechs to match the alpha and damage output on IS mechs they actually run quite a bit cooler than IS mechs.

For example the battlemaster (and other IS laser boats) typically have an alpha of 40 - 50 or so, if you built the equally heavy mad iic to have a 40 - 50 damage alpha it will run a LOT cooler than the battlemaster. The same is true for other mechs.

So the only reason clan mechs "run hot" is that people are too greedy about maximising their alpha strikes, stop doing that and you have clan lasers that run way cooler than the equivalent IS lasers.

Of course, it IS more competitive to run high alphas and run hot managing heat by firing less weapons in between. This is why clan laser mechs are so much stronger than IS laser mechs, what you're trying to do is describe this advantage as a negative so you can dishonestly pretend that clan lasers run hot, it's simply not true. Never has been.

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 January 2018 - 05:14 AM.

[Mighty Spike]

J

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

If you want cool mechs stop putting big guns into your abundance hardpoints and switch over to lighter ones with tons of DHS.
Yes, clan guns are hot, but their DHS are also more compact. You need to strike a balance between firepower and cooling.

You basically have two choices: You either use light weapons like medium (pulse) lasers and lots of DHS to get incredible heat sustainability or you mix in heavier weapons to sacrifice sustainability for more alpha. And with 60+ alphas it is clear that you can't and should not be able to fire this more than a few times before overheating. Go down to 40pts alphas and pack DHS instead and you will have NO problems with heat sustainability.


And you (like many others here) are DRAMATICALLY overestimating the heat-gen nerf. We lose only 2.1% maximum. And since many builds don't use all nodes, the loss is even less severe. This won't turn ANY build from good to bad, in fact i don't think that i will even recognize it on most of my mechs.

Clans are currently VERY heat-efficient if you build them right, so i can indeed understand this small nerf. Maybe it's even not enough.

And i say that as someone who runs clan mechs much more often than IS mechs. Clan is not underperforming and this nerf will not change that.


A minor nerf of 2.1% will not stop anyone from doing 2 big alphas. Why are you guys crying so loud before even trying things out?

A typical clan laser vomit (2xHeavy Larges + 6 Medium lasers) generates 69.8 heat. With all nodes unlocked this goes down to 62.5. With the nerf you will generate 63.94. That's a difference of just 1.44 heat. I'm sure your 25+ DHS can handle this, they will dissipate this in less than 0.3s.

Have less than 25 DHS on such a build? You are probably doing it wrong anyway.

thx, would like it twice if i could
for the clanners

Edited by Mighty Spike, 21 January 2018 - 10:09 AM.

[Luminis]

Sjorpha, on 21 January 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

For example the battlemaster (and other IS laser boats) typically have an alpha of 40 - 50 or so, if you built the equally heavy mad iic to have a 40 - 50 damage alpha it will run a LOT cooler than the battlemaster. The same is true for other mechs.

You can run 78 damage laser alpha on the MAD-IIC and be cooler than a BLR. A ~40 damage alpha and the thing is going to be a fridge.

Sjorpha, on 21 January 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

So the only reason clan mechs "run hot" is that people are too greedy about maximising their alpha strikes, stop doing that and you have clan lasers that run way cooler than the equivalent IS lasers.

But my 94 damage "Lolpha" Deathstrike is actually fun

Plus, the insane heat output makes it a little more interesting to use rather than just point-click-delete.

[PFC Carsten]

Delta1262 Scorch, on 21 January 2018 - 02:32 AM, said:

Somewhy here i was remembering those days few years ago, when MWO had patch/updates each 2 weeks, and actually interesting and somewhat uniue events besides regular that came with each mechpack release. I was even showing GPIs systematic work as an example to why people should play this game, and why it has much better potential to improve with time then many of those similar tank projects, and other.
Then PGI decided to change sthe shedule and make updates more deep and serious, but 1 per month. It was like that from 3 to maybe 5 months, but now everytime you look at the patchnotes, is it just feels or there are really less changes and work done then it was in those 'update per 2 weeks'? Then i wonder why, not because of MWO, because someone on the mechcon said that projects wouldn't slow each other, and it started much before the whole MW5 announcements. And now in those terms you can't not only say that it's not like one of those projects so it worth to try,play,return. You don't even shure why are you still hope for something and playing it.

P.S: And what with that Stalker? Just curious, it's kinda one of the first mechs in the game, yet it look like he's getting model fixes systematically, one after another. Like each 2 updates or something like that? I can't be sure about that, but i remember reading about Stalker's model fixes in patchnote numerous amount of times. It feels like by now it's completely made of fixes.

It's sustaining MVP and prepping for MW5.

[MovinTarget]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 21 January 2018 - 04:02 AM, said:

I want fricking Snubs and MRM, too.

EDIT: Don't forget skills are less effective for clans, also I FEEL (might be wrong though!) that the engine desync was a bigger hit to clans than to IS.

I will give you all the Snubs and MRMs I can buy if you can give us ATMs, one slot SRMs, 2 slot DHS... Clan XLs

And yes, of course Engine desync hits (most) clan *omnimechs* harder, b/c you typically (TYPICALLY, I SAID) have huge locked engines for above average speed. Welcome to mechs handling (more) like big stompy robots.

So guess what, when they say "the grass is greener on the other side" *it goes both ways*

Edited by MovinTarget, 21 January 2018 - 01:35 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 21 January 2018 - 04:02 AM, said:

The problem is not the MP nerf. Or the PPC nerf. The problem is the AC nerfs, the missile nerfs, the MG nerfs, the gauss nerf, the laser nerfs ADDITIONALLY to the XL nerf and all the buffs to IS.
I want fricking Snubs and MRM, too.

EDIT: Don't forget skills are less effective for clans, also I FEEL (might be wrong though!) that the engine desync was a bigger hit to clans than to IS.

Actually the problem is the PPC nerf

[Jack Shayu Walker]

MovinTarget, on 21 January 2018 - 06:46 AM, said:

I will give you all the Snubs and MRMs I can buy if you can give us ATMs, one slot SRMs, 2 slot DHS... Clan XLs

I will give you the DHS's if you throw in the IS ERPeePs and Heavy PeePs as well.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 January 2018 - 08:46 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Like I'm totally cool with the heat nerfs, I'm fine I get it clams OP sure, sure. But when you mess with fire rate on a really clench weapon like the ERPPC, it really clamps down on the fun value of the weapon. Like could you perhaps nerf ANYTHING besides the fire rate? Damage, range, velocity, heat? Please don't bludgeon the weapon's tempo anymore than you already have. Or at least allow the skill tree to reach more extreme values with enough point dedication so I can make my gun work like I want it. Say 25% cool down IS, 20% cool down Clan if you put like 70 points into the firepower tree?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 January 2018 - 08:52 AM.