62 replies to this topic

[Daggett]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

Okay, so from stock loadout you remove 2.5t of energy weaponry that you can add to the already available 1t of mg ammo. Where do you intend to get the other 1.5t of ammo for a total of 5t? Smaller reactor nets 0.5t ... So you'd have to reduce armor by 1t - even when considering that you're most likely going to switch to Ferro in addition to the already Endo based chassis that'll make a squishy mech super squishy and wihout any backup weaponry.

Sound like one of the more "clever" plans.

Do I even want to ask how you intend to get 3,5-4t of ammo and three lasers (er-micro at best in that scenario) and expect to actually still have all three of them once you run out of ammo?

Bombast, on 21 January 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

What engine are you running there? With an XL190 and head shaving (Which may be a bad idea), the Piranha has 6.5 tons of pod space. That's, at most, 3 tons of MG ammo.

The Piranha is very comparable to the locust since most things like structure and engine weight the same so this is what you get if you shave arms (you don't need them if going for max ammo and MGs only) and head for maximum pod space:

LCT-1E

That's 7.82 tons availabe but clan-ferro is lighter than IS ferro so you will probably get those extra points needed for 8t. If not then it's okay to shave the missing few pts from other locations. It's a glass cannon anyway, a few points don't make that much of a difference if your goal is to not draw any fire at all. Also the survival-tree will give much more points back than you need to strip from vital components.

Head armor btw is irrelevant on fast humanoid mechs, so it's not a vital component for me like the torsos and legs. How often does someone aim at a light's head and how many of those shots hit the cockpit when going up to 155 kph? That's next to none. Players shoot legs and torso, i don't mind getting headshotted in one out of hundred games.

Regarding the 3 lasers:
You need the arms so you lose 0.67t for fully armoring them which leaves you with 7.33t left to work with. And you even have some points left to rearm the head or so a bit since you only need 7.25t.

3t are gone for MGs, so you have 4.25t left for ammo and weapons. This enables you to fit 3.5t of ammo and three er-smalls micros. And if you go full-glass-cannon you can also strip some more armor to get another 0.25t to fit 3t of ammo and three heavy smalls or any other 0.5t lasers.

TLDR: You only need to strip very few points of vital component armor to get either 8t without arms or up to 7.5t with them. I do this kind of stripping on most of my lights and the added firepower or sustain was worth it every time, a couple armor points missing on some torsos rarely make that much of a difference if played carefully and mobile enough.

@Geisterbaer:
You can come to the same conclusion with your way of modifying the stock loadout if you strip armor where necessary and factoring in the lighter clan-ferro. The useless head and arms alone are worth more than a ton.

Edited by Daggett, 21 January 2018 - 08:59 AM.

[Mole]

I won't know for sure until I get the thing in my hangar and start messing with it but I worry that the Pirahna is going to have major ammunition issues which may make the 12 MG variant undesirable.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

The Piranha is very comparable to the locust since most things like structure and engine weight the same so this is what you get if you shave arms (you don't need them if going for max ammo and MGs only) and head for maximum pod space:

LCT-1E

That's 7.82 tons availabe but clan-ferro is lighter than IS ferro so you will probably get those extra points needed for 8t.

Which still means no lasers at all in order to get those 5t of ammo ... which kind of was my point with regards to 5t of ammo

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

Regarding the 3 lasers:
You need the arms so you lose 0.67t for fully armoring them. So you got about 7.25t left.

And we're back to ER Micros as predicted ...and you're still under armored.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

3t are gone for MGs, so you have 4.25t left for ammo and weapons. So you can fit 3.5t of ammo and three er-smalls.

ER-Micro ... smalls still weigh 0.5t per item.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

And if you go full-glass-cannon you can also strip some more armor to get another 0.25t to fit 3t of ammo and three heavy smalls or any other 0.5t lasers.

Which also means that by the time you run out of ammo you're also very unlikely to still have those arms.

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

TLDR: You only need to strip very few points of vital component armor to get either 8t without arms or 7.5t with them. I do this on most of my lights and the added firepower or sustain was worth it every time, a couple armor points on each location rarely make that much of a difference if played carefully and mobile enough.

Let's just say that I have my doubts about that

Daggett, on 21 January 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

@Geisterbaer:
You can come to the same conclusion with your way of modifying the stock loadout if you strip armor where necessary and factoring in the lighter clan-ferro. The useless head and arms alone are worth more than a ton.

not really

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 21 January 2018 - 08:55 AM.

[Khobai]

By stripping head/arm armor, the Piranha should be able to do 12mg, 3 microlasers, and 4 tons of ammo

Thats certainly enough ammo for the whole game.

Quote

Which also means that by the time you run out of ammo you're also very unlikely to still have those arms.

if you use light machine guns and stay at range you should be able to keep your arms intact relatively easily

if youre using regular machine guns its true youre probably losing the arms

I think light machine guns are the way to go because otherwise your range is too limited, light machine guns give you better options. you get very slightly better ammo efficiency too.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 09:43 AM.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

regradless if its doa.op or not I still think it will be fun cause it can do things other lights can't

[Der Geisterbaer]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

By stripping head/arm armor, the Piranha should be able to do 12mg, 3 microlasers, and 4 tons of ammo

Thats certainly enough ammo for the whole game.

Let's just say that I have managed to empty 3t of machine gun ammo with 6 and 8 machine guns with my Mist Lynxes not too often but certainly often enough that 4t with 12 would have gone sooner.

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

if you use light machine guns and stay at range you should be able to keep your arms intact relatively easily

And with light machine guns the damage per second drops from those "unbalanced" 12dps down to 8.4 in addition to more spread out damage.

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

if youre using regular machine guns its true youre probably losing the arms

Not just probably

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

I think light machine guns are the way to go because otherwise your range is too limited, light machine guns give you better options. you get very slightly better ammo efficiency too.

If the Mist Lynx can serve as any indication then you're plain wrong.

[Khobai]

Quote

Let's just say that I have managed to empty 3t of machine gun ammo with 6 and 8 machine guns with my Mist Lynxes not too often but certainly often enough that 4t with 12 would have gone sooner.

you can take more than 4T if you drop the microlasers

the microlasers probably arnt even worth it

you can also drop the engine down to 170 for more ammo too

Quote

And with light machine guns the damage per second drops from those "unbalanced" 12dps down to 8.4 in addition to more spread out damage.

doing 12dps doesnt help if you have to get so close you DIE

doing 8.4dps and staying alive is better

also theres the opportunity cost of regular MGs. theres situations where LMGs can do damage that MGs cant do damage in. MG cant do any damage at all in the 261m-500m range.

so youll make up for the lower DPS by having more opportunities to shoot at the enemy due to longer range

Quote

If the Mist Lynx can serve as any indication then you're plain wrong.

the mist lynx has less free tonnage than the piranha does

so its not an indication

1) mist lynx has locked jumpjets
2) mist lynx has locked engine
3) mist lynx has locked active probe
4) mist lynx cant remove its arm armor

piranha has potential to carry more ammo than the mist lynx ever could

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 10:14 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

you can take more than 4T if you drop the microlasers

the microlasers probably arnt even worth it

you can also drop the engine down to 170 for more ammo too



doing 12dps doesnt help if you have to get so close you DIE

doing 8.4dps and staying alive is better



the mist lynx has less free tonnage than the piranha does

so its not an indication

1) mist lynx has locked jumpjets
2) mist lynx has locked engine
3) mist lynx has locked active probe
4) mist lynx cant remove its arm armor

piranha has potential to carry more ammo than the mist lynx ever could

Yet pretty much all "Crit Lynxes" for some (not so) odd reason use standard machine guns not light ones ... and in some cases even just 6 instead of the maximum of 8

[Khobai]

Quote

Yet pretty much all "Crit Lynxes" for some (not so) odd reason use standard machine guns not light ones ... and in some cases even just 6 instead of the maximum of 8

maybe because crit lynxes cant use 12 LMGs. 8 LMGs just isnt enough dps.

they have to use standard machine guns to still do a respectable 8 dps

using LMGs, the piranha can do more dps than the crit lynx with twice the range


or to put it in terms even you can understand. 12 is better than 8.


the piranha is not a crit lynx. theyre not really comparable at all. theyre not even going to be played the same way since the piranha doesnt have jumpjets which heavily influence how the mist lynx is played. I doubt the pirahna will get the same structure/armor quirks the mistlynx does either.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 10:23 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

~smile~ Let's just say that I still trust in seeing Piranhas with 10 to 12 standard machine guns that with light machine guns

[Daggett]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Which still means no lasers at all in order to get those 5t of ammo ... which kind of was my point with regards to 5t of ammo

This was not clear from your post. I said you can fit 5t of ammo and you were asking where those missing 1.5t should come from when stripping all lasers which i answered with "equip ferro and strip armor where it's not needed".

Of cause i never said that the Piranha can fit 5t of ammo AND backup weapons. The whole point was to prove that you can run 12MGs with more than enough ammo to pull your weight in a match.

I only included an option with less ammo but those backup lasers to show that this is possible too..

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

And we're back to ER Micros as predicted ...and you're still under armored.

You said "er-micro at best in that scenario" and i gave an example that er-micro is easy to do with still having 3.5t ammo left. And only your head is missing armor. That's not underarmored for a fast light that's almost never get hit in the cockpit by my experience.

If you strip the mech only slightly (so it can probably be called underarmored rightfully) you can get to 7.5 ton to fit 3t of ammo and three er-smalls or heavies so it IS possible to have decent ammo AND better backup weapons than just er-micros. It's just a matter of preference if one prefers firepower/sustain or a few points of additional armor.

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

ER-Micro ... smalls still weigh 0.5t per item.

Of cause i meant micros. I already fixed that soon after i saw this mistake.

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Which also means that by the time you run out of ammo you're also very unlikely to still have those arms.

Not necessarily. It's no MLX with huge arms everyone knows to shoot at to disarm it. The Piranha's arms are tiny compared to MLX or ACH and will draw a lot less fire.

No one will actively aim for the Piranha's arms with only a laser in it, especially not if it's a micro one. Players will shoot torso or legs. Sure it will happen that some stray shots will blow of an arm but this will happen much less often than on the MLX or ACH where everyone aims at the arms.

I'm pretty confident that i will be able to preserve my arms long enough to make those lasers do some work for their weight.

Also even if both arms are gone you still have that laser in the CT. Which enables a third build option: 1 (Heavy) Medium in the CT and two er-micros in the arm if you think those will fall of too quickly.

Or just the medium in the CT and stripped arms for more ammo or armor depending on your preferences. This way you can have 4t of ammo and a heavy medium laser as backup/dps amplifier while being fully armored except the head and the empty arms. Or 3.5t of ammo and a fully armored head if you want to waste valuable pod-space for unneeded protection.

Endless possibilities for every taste...

Edited by Daggett, 21 January 2018 - 10:41 AM.

[Lykaon]

Piranha -2 with 6x ER medium lasers 11 DHS only need to shave a smidge of armor to get a 7 ton payload.

I think this is an under rated potential build that may be seen in use. It has manageable heat levels versitility due to range and still hits real hard for a 20 tonner with a firepower of 42 no ghostheat no ammo dependency and a heat efficiency of over 33% with skill nodes It may become a common build for the model 2.

[Mystere]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

for real this sounds very unbalanced that's like 12 damage a second without overheating.
why do Assaults not have this consider they are large and sluggish

12DPS is nothing to 60/90-point alpha strikes.

You have bigger problems if a Piranha wins against those odds stacked in your favor.

[TWIAFU]

Appogee, on 21 January 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

That's how I run my Golden Boy these days, in Conquest matches.

I know we talking QP here, but Streaks are a standard part of DD now due to Lynx rushes....



It's great fun.

[MrMadguy]

Just another OP Light. It's better not to play this game, till PGI won't start applying negative dmg quirks to them. Something like -75% MG dmg.

[Daggett]

MrMadguy, on 21 January 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Just another OP Light. It's better not to play this game, till PGI won't start applying negative dmg quirks to them. Something like -75% MG dmg.

It's better to FIRST play the game against Piranhas and THEN decide if they are OP.

[Khobai]

Quote

~smile~ Let's just say that I still trust in seeing Piranhas with 10 to 12 standard machine guns that with light machine guns

and they will die HORRIBLY

1) piranha not particularly fast for a tiny mech
2) piranha likely wont have armor/structure quirks on anywhere but the legs
3) only 20 tons
4) no jumpjets
5) no ecm/stealth armor shennanigans

how long you think pirahnas are going to last at 130m? about 2 seconds against anyone competent.

using LMGs will drastically increase piranha survivability and options. while both outdpsing and outranging the mistlynx.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 11:19 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Der Geisterbaer, on 21 January 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Yet pretty much all "Crit Lynxes" for some (not so) odd reason use standard machine guns not light ones ... and in some cases even just 6 instead of the maximum of 8

Using 6 means effectively 7 (15% quirk), while also doubling the HP of that right arm
Less upfront potential, but MUCH stronger overall, also saves tonnage.


I use Light ones, because I don't like the limited range...but damage is also very low. It's unsatisfying to shoot, most of the time, so I understand the appeal of normal MGs

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 January 2018 - 12:04 PM.

[Grus]

Abisha, on 21 January 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

for real this sounds very unbalanced that's like 12 damage a second without overheating.
why do Assaults not have this consider they are large and sluggish

you mean like dual heavy gauss? 50pnt of pin point damage for no heat?

[Spheroid]

@Khobai: you need to publically take back your very incorrect prediction of machine gun ghostheat. I am glad you have finally come to a realistic appraisal of the Piranha.