104 replies to this topic

[PFC Carsten]

I still don't see the reason to have a portal for a single game. It's just so tediosly many klicks until I can finally „play“ the game, i.e. enter the mechlab for example.

And the start of MWO itself is another portal, where you enter your credentials. Why isn't an update-button just THERE:

Edited by PFC Carsten, 22 January 2018 - 01:08 PM.

[Horseman]

Teer Kerensky, on 22 January 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I've used the portal for months, but at some point some Windows update made it so that the portal silenty crashes every time I try to run it. The same Windows update broke all DX9 games so only DX11 mode works, and they seem to crash in similiar way with no window becoming ever visible.

Try reinstalling DirectX 9 and DirectX 11 runtimes (you can get them from Microsoft).

Quote

Im not home ATM but I hope I can somehow manually install the patch using old installer or something...

"Or something" known as Steam, perhaps? TBH the only reason to use the portal is if you want to participate in a PTS.

[Rhaezor]

And I thought blizzard was silly to have a client for 3 or 4 games.
MWO portal seems great as long as its optional, I wouldn't trade steam and actually wish there was a little bit more integration. More achievements, Cards.
The long overdue MWO friend list overhaul could allow to see friend's steam page so we knew who the hell was who

Edited by Rhaezor, 22 January 2018 - 01:49 PM.

[MovinTarget]

PFC Carsten, on 22 January 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

I still don't see the reason to have a portal for a single game. It's just so tediosly many klicks until I can finally „play“ the game, i.e. enter the mechlab for example.

And the start of MWO itself is another portal, where you enter your credentials. Why isn't an update-button just THERE:

It might be "big picture" planning...
Single portal for MW:O, MW:O - PTO, MW5, MW5-PTO, etc...

[D V Devnull]

PFC Carsten, on 22 January 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

I still don't see the reason to have a portal for a single game. It's just so tediosly many klicks until I can finally „play“ the game, i.e. enter the mechlab for example.

And the start of MWO itself is another portal, where you enter your credentials. Why isn't an update-button just THERE:
<<<image from https://i.imgur.com/ZCMR5ie.png>>>

Hi there, PFC Carsten... There's a reason they have to have a separate launching/patching program. If PGI tried to use their Client's '.exe' to do the Patching, and something blew up, or tried to actually edit the Client's '.exe' which would cause the program to be shut down due to the changes, then there's a chance that the Patching Process could never be finished. It so happens that Windows doesn't like to keep programs in RAM that don't have the exact matching executable still present on the hard disk. Then you would be looking at a total reinstall for MWO, instead of just a reattempt at patching or simply running a Repair Tool.

That said, I do have to hand it to Krist Smith for trying to make a better MWO Portal Patcher. However, looking at their post in response to me on the previous page at a surface level, it does appear that they may still have a lot of work ahead of them. I may even be misreading them a little, but it seems like they still need to make the download sequence protected against fouling by ISPs and error-free, or people will end up with broken installs. I understand that's no picnic to deal with, but trying to force such a sudden End-Of-Life to the Old StandAlone Patcher before that's done usually only means trouble will ensue. I'll just have to hope that I can continue using the Manual Patch Download Method on the New MWO Portal Patcher, and that switching over goes painlessly for me. I'm definitely going to have to make a system-wide backup of my hard disks before trying to do this, and then hope that the New MWO Portal Patcher doesn't decide that it has to redownload the whole thing again, because I don't have as fast an internet link as I used to. At least, on the bright side, PGI's Krist Smith is open for comms if anything goes wrong, which I'm extremely glad to hear. I just hope that it doesn't come to having to bother them, and everything works out, because when things go right for me, they tend to be okay for all except a few edge cases that I don't fall into. However, when a bug hammers me, others aren't far behind with problems.

~D. V. "Merging Patching into the Main Game '.exe' would NOT work well... Going to have to hope for the best now..." Devnull

[Krist Smith]

PFC Carsten, on 22 January 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

I still don't see the reason to have a portal for a single game. It's just so tediosly many klicks until I can finally „play“ the game, i.e. enter the mechlab for example. And the start of MWO itself is another portal, where you enter your credentials. Why isn't an update-button just THERE:

Well, while you're correct that it's for a single game, the Portal manages multiple installed versions, such as the Public Test and Tournament version, each of which have a completely different fileset. The Portal allows all available versions to be managed by a single application instead of a separate patcher for each version.

There are a couple of reasons why we can't patch at the login screen. First of all, at that point the executable is running - every patch we release changes the exe, so patching at this point would require the game to be shut down again anyway in order to complete. Secondly, while CryEngine is running, it tends to hog quite a few resources, from CPU to memory to bandwidth. All of these resources are very handy in both downloading and applying the patch. We used to have an in-game patcher that took 2-3 times longer to patch (at least), which is why we got rid of that concept and patch separately.

As for getting the number of required clicks down, a feature that will be coming out soon is the option to auto-apply available patches as soon as the Portal opens, saving you from having to click the "Patch" button. This is, however, still in early works, so I can't say when it will be out.

[DAYLEET]

When Steam become an option, all other options should be deleted. There are zero reasons to have secondary options. Steam does everything and more at no performance cost. I just checked, it uses less than 50mb of memory. Focus on steam. Keep uploading news to steam, get seen, remind people you exist and destroy the unseen pocket of resistance that insist on being apart.

[Krist Smith]

Rhaezor, on 22 January 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

And I thought blizzard was silly to have a client for 3 or 4 games. MWO portal seems great as long as its optional, I wouldn't trade steam and actually wish there was a little bit more integration. More achievements, Cards. The long overdue MWO friend list overhaul could allow to see friend's steam page so we knew who the hell was who

Yeah, just so everyone's clear on this (I'll get Matt to update the actual post to be totally clear as well) - this has ZERO impact on Steam installs. We're only retiring the old MWO Patcher. The option will still exist to use either Steam or the Portal, whichever you prefer. Just not the old patcher (which has had a warning pop-up about this eventual retirement for the past several months now). If you want to switch from the patcher to Steam, that's completely fine. It will mean reinstalling the game (or at least doing some manual copying that will take some know-how to accomplish), whereas the Portal should detect existing installs and not require the ~18 GB fresh download. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, we've seen some issues with older versions of the game installer misbehaving, not to mention a total breakdown when people manually move their entire game install base (which is a general Windows no-no for installed applications).

[Ninjah]

My Portal also crashed every time until I checked "Run as Administrator". No problems now.

[Krist Smith]

Ninjah, on 22 January 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

My Portal also crashed every time until I checked "Run as Administrator". No problems now.

Oh, that's odd. My first thought is to ask - did you install the Portal as a different Windows user? I think I might have to handle some file permissions issues.

[PFC Carsten]

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Well, while you're correct that it's for a single game, the Portal manages multiple installed versions, such as the Public Test and Tournament version, each of which have a completely different fileset. The Portal allows all available versions to be managed by a single application instead of a separate patcher for each version.

There are a couple of reasons why we can't patch at the login screen. First of all, at that point the executable is running - every patch we release changes the exe, so patching at this point would require the game to be shut down again anyway in order to complete. Secondly, while CryEngine is running, it tends to hog quite a few resources, from CPU to memory to bandwidth. All of these resources are very handy in both downloading and applying the patch. We used to have an in-game patcher that took 2-3 times longer to patch (at least), which is why we got rid of that concept and patch separately.

As for getting the number of required clicks down, a feature that will be coming out soon is the option to auto-apply available patches as soon as the Portal opens, saving you from having to click the "Patch" button. This is, however, still in early works, so I can't say when it will be out.

Last time i checked, I had to download patches separately for PTS even though I was already using the portal version. This has been fixed? Kudos then, because honestly I haven't seen a live PTS in a long time no. But good that you try to make life easier for some select few folks!

The game-windows itself uses negligibly few ressources on a system meeting the required system specs, but anyway: Good that you're so concerned about people with lower end machines having a smooth patching experience.

Maybe tell me one thing though: Why does in-game pop up another window (the one everyone only remembers the dismiss-button) parrotting the same stuff you loaded the portal screen with?

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

[…] not to mention a total breakdown when people manually move their entire game install base (which is a general Windows no-no for installed applications).

Maybe ask the fellows from gog.com? There, I can move complete installed games - and not only decades old DOS box containers - entirely from one machine to another, provided I have enough space on my USB key. It's definitely possible.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 22 January 2018 - 02:29 PM.

[Sigmar Sich]

Rest in peace, good old patcher. You will be remembered.

[Krist Smith]

PFC Carsten, on 22 January 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

Last time i checked, I had to download patches separately for PTS even though I was already using the portal version. This has been fixed? Kudos then, because honestly I haven't seen a live PTS in a long time no. But good that you try to make life easier for some select few folks! The game-windows itself uses negligibly few ressources on a system meeting the required system specs, but anyway: Good that you're so concerned about people with lower end machines having a smooth patching experience. Maybe tell me one thing though: Why does in-game pop up another window (the one everyone only remembers the dismiss-button) parrotting the same stuff you loaded the portal screen with? Maybe ask the fellows from gog.com? There, I can move complete installed games - and not only decades old DOS box containers - entirely from one machine to another, provided I have enough space on my USB key. It's definitely possible.

PTS is still a separate install base, so unfortunately it still requires separate patches, but those patches can be applied via the same Portal you'd use for the main version. I am looking into a way to leverage existing files on your system from the main game install to offset some of the PTS/Tournament download requirements, but that's still kinda in the early concept stages at this point.

As for the in-game carousel (the one that shows up after you log in), it's because Steam users don't get to see the carousel when they're patching, and it often contains useful game info (like new Mechs, events, and other general updates). It can seem redundant when you're coming from the Portal/Patcher, but it's got a use and design elected to keep the flow as-is for all players (of all my responsibilities at PGI, design isn't really one of them ).

[Ninjah]

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Oh, that's odd. My first thought is to ask - did you install the Portal as a different Windows user? I think I might have to handle some file permissions issues.

Nope, I only have one administrator account, didn't even create a windows user (skipped that). I'm running Windows 8.1 (everything up-to-date). Also I have MWO and Portal installed on my other drive since system SSD is almost full.

[Blerome Jake]

The portal takes so much longer to open compared to the old launcher (which was REALLY SLOW (by modern gaming standards) already).

Just a quality of life suggestion; If you are going to make it show all the updates before I enter the game then disable the popup when I enter the game or vice versa. Let me guess this change was for the steam users right? So us loyal people get ****** on both ends, we get the launchers popup updates then the same updates again when the game begins.

[Horseman]

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

There are a couple of reasons why we can't patch at the login screen. First of all, at that point the executable is running - every patch we release changes the exe, so patching at this point would require the game to be shut down again anyway in order to complete. Secondly, while CryEngine is running, it tends to hog quite a few resources, from CPU to memory to bandwidth. All of these resources are very handy in both downloading and applying the patch. We used to have an in-game patcher that took 2-3 times longer to patch (at least), which is why we got rid of that concept and patch separately.

As for getting the number of required clicks down, a feature that will be coming out soon is the option to auto-apply available patches as soon as the Portal opens, saving you from having to click the "Patch" button. This is, however, still in early works, so I can't say when it will be out.

While we're at this... when will there be a feature to remember out login credentials outright (or, for Steam users, link our MWO account with our Steam account and authorize through Steam)?

[Krist Smith]

Horseman, on 22 January 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

While we're at this... when will there be a feature to remember out login credentials outright (or, for Steam users, link our MWO account with our Steam account and authorize through Steam)?

Well, this is a design decision (technical design, but design nonetheless) that was made early in development for the sake of security - we don't store your password to avoid the security concerns entirely. I'll mention it around the office, but if this is something you'd really like to see, you'd need to get Paul, Russ, or Alex on board with it.

[D V Devnull]

Ninjah, on 22 January 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Ninjah, on 22 January 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

My Portal also crashed every time until I checked "Run as Administrator". No problems now.

Oh, that's odd. My first thought is to ask - did you install the Portal as a different Windows user? I think I might have to handle some file permissions issues.

Nope, I only have one administrator account, didn't even create a windows user (skipped that). I'm running Windows 8.1 (everything up-to-date). Also I have MWO and Portal installed on my other drive since system SSD is almost full.

Pardon me while I poke in, but this did bring up some interesting thoughts and questions on my part. I really could use Krist Smith's input here.

First off, when I went to Install MWO a couple years back, I made sure to install to a directory with just one single Permission statement. That happened to be "Everyone > Full Control", which took care of a lot of problems, and made it so that even "Run As Administrator" was not needed normally. Unfortunately, I rapidly discovered that only the Installing User could launch the MWO StandAlone Patcher, regardless of who was logged onto Windows at the time. Even "Run As Administrator" couldn't help the issue at the time, and would just leave MWO's BootStrap and Initiator '.exe's stuck in an infinite loop. This required a WorkAround where a certain Registry Branch had to be duplicated to any additional Windows Users who wished to play MWO on the computer. Anywho, the question is this... Will the Installer for the New MWO Portal Patcher take care of that issue, so that Registry Key duplication won't be needed for more than one person on a computer to play MWO?

Second off, with that issue out of the way, thankfully Patching happened to be a breeze for any and every user playing MWO, and other users on the system could use Updated, Patched Versions of MWO without Issue. There was no need for "Run As Administrator" here either. Thus, Question #2... Will it stay that way?

Third, any time the Repair Tool currently needs to be used, in the rare event of a problem, or just someone being paranoid and needing to Verify the Current MWO Install, I have noticed that "Run As Administrator" becomes necessary here. Oddly, it seems like it shouldn't need that done, what with the Install Directories already having their Permissions on "Everyone > Full Control", and so brings me to the question... Will the Install of the New MWO Portal Patcher fix this issue with per-user operation of the MWO Repair Tool, so that each user can use it properly with Their Profile and such? Or is there a reason for needing Administrator Permissions even when the Directory Permissions would show that not being needed?

Fourth, every time I try to use the Old StandAlone Patcher to actually Download the Patch File, my ISP slows it down horribly to the point that it takes well beyond too long under normal circumstances. They're literally dead-bent upon forcing everything through the Web Browser, even to the detriment of their customer's experience. Unfortunately, I'm already on the best ISP my area has. Conversely, downloading the '.zip' in the first place with my Web Browser and manually providing it to MWO's Patcher by hand is rather rapid and doesn't take too long once the Patcher verifies it has the right file from the Server. So I'm left to ask... Is there anything in the New MWO Portal Patcher to actively shield the Patch File Download connection against the ISP being a problematic jerk?





Also, before I forget...

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

<<<snip>>>

Well, this is a design decision (technical design, but design nonetheless) that was made early in development for the sake of security - we don't store your password to avoid the security concerns entirely. I'll mention it around the office, but if this is something you'd really like to see, you'd need to get Paul, Russ, or Alex on board with it.

My credits to all of you at PGI for avoiding Auto-Storing of Password Information. Not to be callous to others, but storing that information is usually the weak point that so-called "black hats" use to steal a user's account forever. Frankly, I don't mind having to type it in every time for security purposes. It's a lot better than what I fear the alternative would be.



~D. V. "Okay, I've got my questions still, but I'm trying to look at this positively... Got any useful tidbits of info?" Devnull

[PFC Carsten]

Krist Smith, on 22 January 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

PTS is still a separate install base, so unfortunately it still requires separate patches, but those patches can be applied via the same Portal you'd use for the main version. I am looking into a way to leverage existing files on your system from the main game install to offset some of the PTS/Tournament download requirements, but that's still kinda in the early concept stages at this point.

As for the in-game carousel (the one that shows up after you log in), it's because Steam users don't get to see the carousel when they're patching, and it often contains useful game info (like new Mechs, events, and other general updates). It can seem redundant when you're coming from the Portal/Patcher, but it's got a use and design elected to keep the flow as-is for all players (of all my responsibilities at PGI, design isn't really one of them ).

Thank you for your input, Krist Smith.
Two additional things:

The in-game carousel could use a trigger, whether or not the game was launched from steam or not in order to determine if it's useful to load at all. For me, it takes quite a couple of seconds, which is especially annyoing when I had my mandatory 24h ISP disconnect and I want to rejoin my running game as fast as possible.

Second, the soon-to-be-phased out patcher already HAD this auto-apply button for patches. Thanks for trying to bring that back.

Right now, the Portal seems like a light-weight browser only with bookmarks which open the system's default browser. Which is kinda... not really helpful and feels completely unncessary for me as a normal player (non-PTS, no championship build).

[Krist Smith]

D V Devnull, on 22 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

Pardon me while I poke in, but this did bring up some interesting thoughts and questions on my part. I really could use Krist Smith's input here. First off, when I went to Install MWO a couple years back, I made sure to install to a directory with just one single Permission statement. That happened to be "Everyone > Full Control", which took care of a lot of problems, and made it so that even "Run As Administrator" was not needed normally. Unfortunately, I rapidly discovered that only the Installing User could launch the MWO StandAlone Patcher, regardless of who was logged onto Windows at the time. Even "Run As Administrator" couldn't help the issue at the time, and would just leave MWO's BootStrap and Initiator '.exe's stuck in an infinite loop. This required a WorkAround where a certain Registry Branch had to be duplicated to any additional Windows Users who wished to play MWO on the computer. Anywho, the question is this... Will the Installer for the New MWO Portal Patcher take care of that issue, so that Registry Key duplication won't be needed for more than one person on a computer to play MWO? Second off, with that issue out of the way, thankfully Patching happened to be a breeze for any and every user playing MWO, and other users on the system could use Updated, Patched Versions of MWO without Issue. There was no need for "Run As Administrator" here either. Thus, Question #2... Will it stay that way? Third, any time the Repair Tool currently needs to be used, in the rare event of a problem, or just someone being paranoid and needing to Verify the Current MWO Install, I have noticed that "Run As Administrator" becomes necessary here. Oddly, it seems like it shouldn't need that done, what with the Install Directories already having their Permissions on "Everyone > Full Control", and so brings me to the question... Will the Install of the New MWO Portal Patcher fix this issue with per-user operation of the MWO Repair Tool, so that each user can use it properly with Their Profile and such? Or is there a reason for needing Administrator Permissions even when the Directory Permissions would show that not being needed? Fourth, every time I try to use the Old StandAlone Patcher to actually Download the Patch File, my ISP slows it down horribly to the point that it takes well beyond too long under normal circumstances. They're literally dead-bent upon forcing everything through the Web Browser, even to the detriment of their customer's experience. Unfortunately, I'm already on the best ISP my area has. Conversely, downloading the '.zip' in the first place with my Web Browser and manually providing it to MWO's Patcher by hand is rather rapid and doesn't take too long once the Patcher verifies it has the right file from the Server. So I'm left to ask... Is there anything in the New MWO Portal Patcher to actively shield the Patch File Download connection against the ISP being a problematic jerk? Also, before I forget... My credits to all of you at PGI for avoiding Auto-Storing of Password Information. Not to be callous to others, but storing that information is usually the weak point that so-called "black hats" use to steal a user's account forever. Frankly, I don't mind having to type it in every time for security purposes. It's a lot better than what I fear the alternative would be. ~D. V. "Okay, I've got my questions still, but I'm trying to look at this positively... Got any useful tidbits of info?" Devnull

Lol, I fully expected this to turn into a Q&A, so I'll A as much as I can (still have work to do for tomorrow's patch, after all).

1. Yeah, this is kinda what I was referring to when I said the old patch/install path had issues. It was a mistake to install per-user, but at the time the decision was made, we thought it was the best option. Time told us otherwise. So now when you install the Portal or the game, it installs per-machine. Yes, there are consequences to this as well, but overall it's a win (making it optional isn't really an option, either, since the game itself also needs things to be in a predictable place with predictable permissions). As a side note, we follow Windows best practices in terms of requiring admin permissions - if it's installed to either "Program Files" directory ("x86" or regular 64), the system needs permission to make changes, which requires an administrator allowance. If you install to any non-protected directory (which just rules out places like "C:\Windows" and such), then admin permissions usually aren't required. Unless, of course, you've created a directory using a different Windows account, which gets into the headache that you brought up - making sure the directory allows Everyone to modify it. I won't get into how Steam does things, but if you're curious, I'd recommend you look at the permissions they set to their directory in Program Files.

2. The only time that administrator access is required using the Portal is when both a ) there's a patch to apply and b ) the game is installed to a protected directory. Launching the Portal itself doesn't require admin access (outside of Ninjah's problem, that is). Running the game doesn't require admin access. It's just the patching process that _might_ if you meet those two criteria I mentioned. This is due to launching the actual patcher tool (called PatchBot) as a separate process. That's the only part that should ever need elevation, the Portal and game should not.

3. The Repair Tool. This is a different sort of thing. Right now it's conceivable to make it only run as admin if the game is installed to a protected directory, but I eventually plan on adding some more features and fixes that might require it to manipulate the registry (one of the problems with the old installer involved things being placed in per-user registry keys which should be in per-machine keys). Registry manipulation of this sort will require admin permissions out of necessity.

4. Yeah, this is part of the problem we're having with download speeds, and a big reason why we're implemented the whole "download cache" option. So now while I'm completely focused on the Portal I'll do some investigation into options we may have to speed things up. Impersonating a web browser might not be possible, but I might be able to knit Portal functionality into your default browser, simplifying the process down to just a couple of clicks, as opposed to so many manual steps.