132 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

Of course they need to remove GH from ac20. And from ultra AC20s too.

Clan gaussvomit doing anywhere from 72 to 94 alpha at range. Laservomit doing 64. IS MRM+mlas doing 110. Dual HGR doing 50 with high velocity rounds, more if you throw in some lasers.

40 damage from dual ac20 and 80 from dual ultras at close range will absolutely not break the game at this point. This can shake the meta though but it would be a good thing to happen.

The problem is, PGI does not revisit their old balance decisions even if meta has changed dramatically and old limitations make no sense. Like in case of ac20, gauss charge, and streaks.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 05:10 AM, said:

its fine if everyone else is playing big slow mechs too

the problem is it makes people not wanna play mediums. and mediums already have enough strikes against them as is.

I don't get your comment.

I think everyone understands to not getting too close to big and slow 'mechs, particularly those packing HGRs.

[R Valentine]

AC/20 allows a light fusion engine or an XL is fitted in the arms. AC/20 has no charge and no weapon explosion. AC/20 can be timed with PPCs, particularly snub-nose PPCs. AC/20 optimal range is greater than Heavy Gauss optimal range. We really don't need to remove the GH on AC/20. If anything, PGI is going to nerf heavy gauss again. It will probably happen after the Fafnir drops, however. Can't ruin those pre-order sales.

[Seranov]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 05:16 AM, said:

Of course they need to remove GH from ac20. And from ultra AC20s too.

Clan gaussvomit doing anywhere from 72 to 94 alpha at range. Laservomit doing 64. IS MRM+mlas doing 110. Dual HGR doing 50 with high velocity rounds, more if you throw in some lasers.

40 damage from dual ac20 and 80 from dual ultras at close range will absolutely not break the game at this point. This can shake the meta though but it would be a good thing to happen.

The problem is, PGI does not revisit their old balance decisions even if meta has changed dramatically and old limitations make no sense. Like in case of ac20, gauss charge, and streaks.

I'm just saying, my 2x UAC20 + 2 HML Deathstrike sure wouldn't complain about being able to alpha both arms at the same time!

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 06:20 AM, said:

AC/20 allows a light fusion engine or an XL is fitted in the arms. AC/20 has no charge and no weapon explosion. AC/20 can be timed with PPCs, particularly snub-nose PPCs. AC/20 optimal range is greater than Heavy Gauss optimal range. We really don't need to remove the GH on AC/20. If anything, PGI is going to nerf heavy gauss again. It will probably happen after the Fafnir drops, however. Can't ruin those pre-order sales.

HGauss actually does more damage than the AC20 does inside the AC20's optimal range. But also it weighs three tons more, in addition to all the problems you mentioned. It has plenty of downsides if you devote your tonnage and crits to it, but that 50 PPFLD is n o i c e.

[BEST EGG]

Dual HGauss could lose half the range buff and still be a viable loadout, especially in lower tier gameplay. There is simply nothing that compares to instantaneous delivery, near-hitscan 50 alpha.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 06:20 AM, said:

AC/20 allows a light fusion engine or an XL is fitted in the arms. AC/20 has no charge and no weapon explosion. AC/20 can be timed with PPCs, particularly snub-nose PPCs.

Just check AC20 velocity and compare it to HGR velocity.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Seranov, on 05 February 2018 - 06:42 AM, said:

I'm just saying, my 2x UAC20 + 2 HML Deathstrike sure wouldn't complain about being able to alpha both arms at the same time!

Yes, DS and maulers will rock, but well, they will still be range limited and will run hot considering six lasers and the heat from two ultras.

[R Valentine]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Yes, DS and maulers will rock, but well, they will still be range limited and will run hot considering six lasers and the heat from two ultras.

Maulers will never rock. They have horrible hit boxes and the hardpoint placement is sub-optimal. As for velocity, AC/20s still manage to time just fine with snub-nose PPCs. And as much as I like the idea of dual AC/20 fire, it'll never happen. PGI will nerf H-gauss first.

[Curccu]

The Basilisk, on 05 February 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

The HGRs have a long charge time and bad convergence...so if you still got a problem with them....well ....

Long? Just normal convergence and over 2xbetter velocity than AC20 = easier to hit where you want.

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 06:20 AM, said:

AC/20 allows a light fusion engine or an XL is fitted in the arms. AC/20 has no charge and no weapon explosion. AC/20 can be timed with PPCs, particularly snub-nose PPCs. AC/20 optimal range is greater than Heavy Gauss optimal range. We really don't need to remove the GH on AC/20. If anything, PGI is going to nerf heavy gauss again. It will probably happen after the Fafnir drops, however. Can't ruin those pre-order sales.

Ammo explosion (which could/should also have higher chance happening overall)
AC20 velocity is ~½ or less of all PPCs so doesn't time that well on lets say that max optimum range.
AC20 optimum range is better than HGR but only has 2x MAX range. Didn't do the math but I would estimation quickly that HG does about same damage at 270 as AC20, most likely more.

[Curccu]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

Maulers will never rock. They have horrible hit boxes and the hardpoint placement is sub-optimal. As for velocity, AC/20s still manage to time just fine with snub-nose PPCs. And as much as I like the idea of dual AC/20 fire, it'll never happen. PGI will nerf H-gauss first.

Oh and Mauler-2P rocks with 2xHGR and 6x(ER)ML

[R Valentine]

Curccu, on 05 February 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Oh and Mauler-2P rocks with 2xHGR and 6x(ER)ML

Still inferior to the Sleipnir, which twists off damage way better even though it has a smaller alpha strike. Also has higher placement of the HGRs. Maulers are wet paper bags.

[Seranov]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Yes, DS and maulers will rock, but well, they will still be range limited and will run hot considering six lasers and the heat from two ultras.

I mean, that's absolutely correct. Mostly the reason I went with only 2 HMLs instead of a larger number of other lasers. But I imagine that PGI is worried about folks running around doing 80 damage double tap alpha strikes without any charge up, and it's likely any change to UAC20 ghost heat would likely come at the cost of higher jam rate or longer jam duration.

[R Valentine]

Seranov, on 05 February 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

I mean, that's absolutely correct. Mostly the reason I went with only 2 HMLs instead of a larger number of other lasers. But I imagine that PGI is worried about folks running around doing 80 damage double tap alpha strikes without any charge up, and it's likely any change to UAC20 ghost heat would likely come at the cost of higher jam rate or longer jam duration.

Yes, just what we need. An IS UAC/20 that's just as useless as the clan UAC/20.

[Water Bear]

I have mixed feelings. The damage similarity of the HGR to the the AC/20 makes it look like a similar situation, but the sacrifices required to mount 2x HGR are far and away greater than mounting 2x AC/20. For example, a 65 ton Jagermech can easily mount AC/40 whereas the smallest 'mech I can think of off the top of my head that can mount 2x HGR is 90 tons. (I'm sure there are lighter such 'mechs, but none I can quickly imagine).

OTOH, with TTK through the floor these days thanks to modern DPS and clan alpha builds, I'm really not sure it would make much difference to allow AC/40. I don't think much of the concerns regarding AC/40+ energy weapons because the heat would be pretty severe. Maybe just turn the ghost heat down, and voila.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Seranov, on 05 February 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

But I imagine that PGI is worried about folks running around doing 80 damage double tap alpha strikes without any charge up, and it's likely any change to UAC20 ghost heat would likely come at the cost of higher jam rate or longer jam duration.

I strongly suspect no one cares about some old stuff they done ages ago. It kinda works and it looks ok in their spreadsheets so why bother.

[R Valentine]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

I strongly suspect no one cares about some old stuff they done ages ago. It kinda works and it looks ok in their spreadsheets so why bother.

Eh, given that clan gauss vomit reaches 94 damage and that no mech mounting 2x UAC/20 would be an old school KDK-3 with 4x UAC/10 I tend to agree. I like the idea of 2x AC/20, but I'm still inclined to believe that PGI would nerf HGR long before they even considered AC/20 ghost heat. Can't let IS have anything nice.

[wamX]

Hit the Deck, on 05 February 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

I don't get your comment.

I think everyone understands to not getting too close to big and slow 'mechs, particularly those packing HGRs.

Especially when people take the time to press "R" and get some info on who they are running in front of.

[El Bandito]

It is very easy to deal with HGR mechs. Just shoot the ST, and warn your teammates.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 05 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

It is very easy to deal with HGR mechs. Just shoot the ST, and warn your teammates.

Yup, or fight them at medium to long range... kind of easy to do as they are often slow.... Also flank and crit out their ST's....

[Y E O N N E]

Oh no, the AC/20 might be worth something if we lower ghost heat on it. Head for the hills!