83 replies to this topic

[PoohPuss]

tker 669, on 05 February 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

In this game you are rewarded for firing your weapons as much as possible.

Yes. And because it's a matter of course, it's assumed.

I'm not talking about waiting to shoot for the express purpose of winning doing as little damage as possible (and thereby winning less). I'm talking about you mashing that fire-button as hard as you can. But as your team does so too the result should be that the better you've become the less damage you deal before you win. If you fire at a given frequenzy killing that Atlas doing only 250, you'd have killed him in half the time it would take you to kill him doing 500 damage.

That's the thought anyway. And that thought is what puzzles me about damage-output beyond the reasonable being a badge of honor (assuming a team of equal players getting comparative dmg output).

Disclaimer: To avoid confusion, the above statement doesen't mean to say good answers haven't been presented in this thread.

[Ghogiel]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

If 12 perfect players won a skirmish doing equal amounts of damage, they would only cause 110 damage each. If a real life tier-1 team win, each doing 1k dmg on average (I don't think there is that much armor and HP present in any given match), that would mean 900 damage worth of essentially misses on average.

So I'm wondering what I'm missing regarding the whole "if you do less than 2k damage you're dung" attitude?

You letting other players on your team do 2k while you haven't/can't is down to you not doing more. You aren't there for moral support, there is only so much dmg and kills to go around, if other players are doing the 2, 3, 4ks while you do what ever and finish with consistant sub 1ks when the dmg is there to be had. Why is that?

Secondly always shooting CT is not completely viable all the time and often not even desired. Shooting off a side or leg might be inarguably the best thing to do at any given time depending.

For 12 perfect players the idea that 900dmg is being wasted is far from reality. Firstly they should be doing 480 in a perfect shooting bots in CT scenario to kill every mech because there are 4 mechs per person. When you ggclose some scrubs with a real 12man everyone on the team does 800-1200. People aren't even allowed to do 2k by virtue of your team mates ability to sit mechs down before you even see them.

Lastly 900dmg "extra" on the enemy is not misses. People who are missing are getting zero "extra" dmg. Fact is this "extra" dmg adds up so it's never really wasted so much. Plus the players dropping 2, 3, 4ks are almost universally doing far more effective dmg than the average low dmg player who dont even have ability to lay that much out ever.

[Bud Crue]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

Seems there doesen't need to be too much attention put towards a subject these days to account for obsession.

@Bad Crue, Bombast expressed he didn't understand the numbers I presented in my first post so I laid them out for him. No biggie.

Meh. I think I don't understand where you are coming from with this is all. Asking question is always good, but I think the origin of your question (a**holes giving grief) is not going to have an adequate explanation no matter what.

[ANOM O MECH]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Yes. And because it's a matter of course, it's assumed.

I'm not talking about waiting to shoot for the express purpose of winning doing as little damage as possible (and thereby winning less). I'm talking about you mashing that fire-button as hard as you can. But as your team does so too the result should be that the better you've become the less damage you deal before you win. If you fire at a given frequenzy killing that Atlas doing only 250, you'd have killed him in half the time it would take you to kill him doing 500 damage.

That's the thought anyway. And that thought is what puzzles me about damage-output beyond the reasonable being a badge of honor (assuming a team of equal players getting comparative dmg output).

Disclaimer: To avoid confusion, the above statement doesen't mean to say good answers haven't been presented in this thread.

Again that is excluding the skills of others.

As you get better, your average damage goes up. Even with good aim, as when you get the torso, you get the arm with it.

You don't have to agree with me. Having watched and played with exceptional players, I know that high damage numbers come with it. Again if you were to look up EmP members you would some of the most accurate shot in the game, also have very, very high average damage.

[PoohPuss]

tker 669, on 05 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Again that is excluding the skills of others.

As you get better, your average damage goes up. Even with good aim, as when you get the torso, you get the arm with it.

You don't have to agree with me. Having watched and played with exceptional players, I know that high damage numbers come with it. Again if you were to look up EmP members you would some of the most accurate shot in the game, also have very, very high average damage.

Do they produce all those high damage numbers when playing together, all at once? Or do they produce those numbers when playing with ppl who aren't as good?

Since you bring it up, I don't agree or disagree with what you're saying. I asked a question, read the answers and talk for a bit around the subject-matter. Taking a stand is not part of my equation what regards this thread. There is no "win-result" here for me, just learning.

[ANOM O MECH]

PoohPuss, on 05 February 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

Do they produce all those high damage numbers when playing together, all at once? Or do they produce those numbers when playing with ppl who aren't as good?

Since you bring it up, I don't agree or disagree with what you're saying. I asked a question, read the answers and talk for a bit around the subject-matter. Taking a stand is not part of my equation what regards this thread. There is no "win-result" here for me, just learning.

No problem.

Good players, have high damage against other good players. Again, killing someone who knows what they are doing mean they are going to spread damage no matter how good your aim.

PPFLD shots from a good player will hit torsos or what they are shooting at more, but again they get credit for attached components.

[Bohxim]

Imo, sure you could down most mechs thru the ct with an average of 100-200 dmg. But the game's mechanic, weapon types and player skill inherently brings about spread damage. And in most times dmg to any component (well maybe except empty shield arms) is always good as it softens up a mech for others to disable or core out.
Practically, you tend to see an average of 200-300 dmg per player to wipe the enemy team. So for the longest time what I've known to be the bench mark per match was 300 dmg. That's where I know I've done at least my part. 500 is doing pretty well, above that is excellent. Remember, for you to pull high dmg, not only must your enemy not be good enough to take you down before you do it, your team isn't doing good enough to partake in that damage too.

Some scenarios I've noticed.i usually play in a 4man lance. We usually have a 'tank', 2 'dps' and 1 'harasser/flank' and it tends to have a mix of 2 of us having high dmg games. Also sometimes when I see the rest of the PUG and I notice some names I'm unsure of or am sure aren't very good players (either by observing from previous games or they admitted they're relatively new to the game) my average damage is pretty high for win games. Even sometimes on losing games but we go down fighting hard, we still pull 700-900 dmg game losses.
But occasionally I've has the pleasure of dropping with big name 12 man's (mixed units or large units) and I notice due to the better coordination and better movement, the team averages out to 4-500 with no one breaking 600. But its almost always a solid win or roll.
There definitely is a correlation between skill levels and preferences of your enemy and your own team that determines the dmg outputs of a player. But I still believe a player tends to be generally good if they're consistently pulling 500 onwards dmg

[Gamuray]

Keep in mind, the mech you're playing is also vital to your damage output. Personally, I have no issue outputting 500 ish damage when playing my favored mechs. But I have a lot of mechs to work with and I don't like playing the same ones much. So when I play my less favored mechs, the damage is significantly lower.

So keep in mind that a good player's damage can still be reduced by being in a mech they aren't used to. ESPECIALLY if it's in a weight class they aren't used to. (i.e. I'm more of an assault pilot, but I often play mediums and lights to switch it up)

[LordNothing]

tker 669, on 05 February 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

Interesting perspective.

Completely wrong, but interesting.

Perfect example of the skill disparity and lack of understanding the game.

i was also very stoned.

you still didnt make your case though. you just stroked your ego convinced that nobody other than yourself can have a valid opinion.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 February 2018 - 06:53 PM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

The closest thing we have to a measure of an actually good performance are kmdds and solo kills.

Raw damage numbers can be very misleading if taken out of context.

Context part 1 - what weapon do you use. Rockets in general tend to inflate dmg numbers way over your actual contribution to the game. For example, if I were to compare an efficiency of an ATM boat to a laserboat, I would multiply atm damage x 0.66 or something. Using rockets and arty broadens the gap between damage dealt and damage that mattered.

Context 2 - your accuracy - obviously.

Context 3 - your ability to focus fire and knowing where to focus fire (coring CT on a mech that already has a ST open because you didn't check or remembered, shooting torso on a light while everybody else shoots its legs...)

Context part 4 - early damage vs late damage. Usually the later in the game it is, the less the damage you do means. Example: 100dmg done by a backstabbing light in 2nd minute of the game that killed an enemy assault before it even reached the front line vs 200dmg done by a direwolf who hid behind its team until there was 11vs4, and then went rambo.

Context part 5 - how much damage did your enemies do (large enemy dmg is a sign that your team, maybe including you, were not effective in dropping enemy mechs fast/disabling them before they do harm)

etc. etc.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 05 February 2018 - 06:50 PM.

[LordNothing]

still think that 300 is par for a direct kill, its the bare minimum required to get a direct front ct kill on the heaviest of mechs. you can get that down with really good aim (headshot) or positioning (backshat), or go the other way with scatter weapons and missiles. its still a gross abstraction that does not account for the complexity of having many players sharing targets.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 February 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[Humpday]

If youre playing with really good players, your entire team will do max about 400-500 a clip.
In PUG you'll see people do the work of 3-4 mechs with 800-1400dmg.

Below 400 is unacceptable, at that performance you're not damaging enough of the mechs to help your team.
Now what acceptable in my eyes is to do sub 400 damage but make up for it by taking out 3-4 people and getting them off the field.

[Yosharian]

One of the biggest problems with damage scores is that you often have people swanning around with 500+ damage scores thinking they're hot ****, when they did that damage with LRMs or other weapons that spread. Or they just abused strike-2-win.

I'll take 500 pinpoint damage (e.g. from a laser boat) over 500 LRM boat damage any day of the week.

That aside, if I do less than 400* damage I determine that I didn't pull my weight or my build needs to be reworked. I never use LRMs, but if I did, I'd double that number.

*Of course that number varies slightly depending on what class I'm bringing (but less than you might think, my Cougar for example has 450 average damage)

Edited by Yosharian, 05 February 2018 - 08:10 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Asym, on 05 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

Aren't we all? Puzzled that is...

Don't we all need to feel "superior"?
Don't we all need to self-justify why we are "playing a freaking video game"; instead, of reloading cartridges for the upcoming long range precision match this next weekend??? (where we really shoot precision rifles out beyond 800 meters for score.....) Or, finishing another ballistic test of a new rifle?

Ignore them.....and have fun and whatever "statistics" result from having some fun is good enough.......

No we don't.. There is something Special about humility.. That said op doing 250 + is really all you need in quickplay. 250 damage is 2-4 mechs dead, thats enough to pull your weight.


And match score or damage is pointless its all about Cbils.. Cbils is what counts not some epeen score no one with a brain gives a toss about.

Funnily all these people above quoting high damage regularly yet never actually do it in real life is just fake news.

Edited by Samial, 05 February 2018 - 08:33 PM.

[Jobe01]

Funny... I’ve seen thousands of QP matches (sadly), and if I’m on the losing side of a fight, 9 out of 12 typically do <300 damage. On the winning side, 6 out of 12 usually do >300. Every once in a while I see some 4digit scores... most of the time there are 1 or 2 ~600 (sadly, not me most of the time).

Some times people lose sight of the fact that it’s every match that counts.., not just the ones where we “crush it.” But hey, I’m average on a good day. There are those that are really good that put up really high scores on a regular basis... just don’t expect everyone to- or else this wouldn’t be the game (and I can’t stress that enough) that it is.

[ANOM O MECH]

LordNothing, on 05 February 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

i was also very stoned.

you still didnt make your case though. you just stroked your ego convinced that nobody other than yourself can have a valid opinion.

Yeah and it shows.

You don't really have a point so there was no case to be made.

You are not performing on par with most decent players I know, and your stats show this. So you coming out with a lie off the hop, doesn't help your case.

Oh, and your opinion isn't invalid. It is most likely legitimately how you see things. However , your perspective is not from someone who is enjoying success or experienced playing with units. Especially good units.

None of what I say should be insulting to you. Not the point. The point is to put your opinion into context with your experience and success.

Think of more along the lines of not getting a calculus tutor who has never taken calculus and is bad at math.

Also from my perspective, you can have a lot of success not by being the best pilot. I wouldn't be too surprised if you and I one vs. one'd if you won. I am just not that great a pilot. However, you and I drop into a CW pug match, I will be at the top of the score sheet a lot.

The reason for this is raw experience, and being a part of a successful unit. Basically I have access to data such as tactics, loadouts, positioning, likely enemy tactics, and so on that you don't have access to (but can over time in CW as a pug too just longer/harder). So that is not me saying ha, ha I am better at all.

If you were to join a unit, and especially if a good one, your perspective would change dramatically.

Edited by tker 669, 05 February 2018 - 09:47 PM.

[Kodyn]

A good rule of thumb someone once taught me was "if you do at least 3x the weight of your mech in damage, you did your part". Now this would obviously vary for some lights, as some are set up as brawlers and can pack a high alpha, but there's also stuff like Kitfoxes that may contribute greatly to a team without doing much damage.

I'm happy if I can hold a 3-500 average, with the odd 6-800 game in between. When I do below 300 it's usually a new mech that I'm unused to, or I made a mistake early and died to something I shouldn't have. My best matches are where I can net 3-4+ kills with under 500 damage, then I actually get to feel like my aim was decent(or I got lucky and hit opened components).

I think a player's goals also need to be taken into account when it comes to what's considered a good average for them. Much of the time, I'm space-broke, and looking to buy new mechs with Cbills. For me, it's all about maximizing my earnings and shortening my grind. The best way to do that is voting lots of Conquest, getting lots of kills/assists, components, and trying for inflated damage when possible. When it's about the CBills, I don't mind if I have a 0 kill, 700 damage match with 9 assists- I may not have performed that well, but I made 200k+ CBills. 3-4 kills and low damage works out similarly for CBills. When in a light, I try for Scouting and Flanking bonuses to make up for lower damage numbers.

Back when I was in a unit and doing mostly FP and Group Queue, I was more concerned with the team winning, killing the right targets at the right time, etc, and damage took a back burner to team efficiency altogether. On good matches damage would generally be spread across the team fairly evenly, excepting light scouts, and with a bias towards direct fire support mechs. If any one pilot had inflated damage counts, it meant someone on one team or the other was failing pretty hard and either feeding them damage or not doing that damage themselves leaving them to carry. (Mostly talking Group here, FP everyone tended to have inflated numbers since we never had a balanced match.)

[Khobai]

Quote

A good rule of thumb someone once taught me was "if you do at least 3x the weight of your mech in damage, you did your part".

I dont think thats a very good metric.

if you only do 60 damage in a locust or 300 damage in an annihilator youre not really doing your part in either case

200 damage + 3x your mechs tonnage is probably more accurate

if youve done 250-500 damage youve usually done your part

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 11:16 PM.

[Kodyn]

Valid points Khobai, but I was a newb at the time of receiving the advice, and it was advice I would also direct towards a newer player. I generally feel bad if I go as low as 300 in an Assault or Heavy, and I try for 300+ on any mech, but that's just me. I know guys that can rack up 6-800 dmg games easy with lights, but I can't do that, so I have to set my goalposts closer or further depending on mech class/loadouts.

Also, the more I think about it, the exact advice may well have been 3x weight + some amount of damage, 100 or 200 as you suggested. Actually, may have been 150 match score plus 3x your weight in damage...now I'm second-guessing.

[Escef]

Yosharian, on 05 February 2018 - 08:09 PM, said:

That aside, if I do less than 400* damage I determine that I didn't pull my weight or my build needs to be reworked.

Humpday, on 05 February 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Below 400 is unacceptable, at that performance you're not damaging enough of the mechs to help your team.

What game are you guys playing? No, seriously, I regularly see matches where both top damage is below 600 and 3/4s of the winning team deals less than 400 on a regular basis. I just fail to see how you can realistically have standards like that.