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A Community-Driven Balance Update


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#701 Khobai

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:31 AM

the night gyr was one of the scariest mechs in the game. thats why it was nerfed.

you act like it was nerfed for no reason. it was nerfed for a very good reason. it was just overnerfed.

Quote

The game can only be balanced around brawling. Poke weapons such as many lasers and gauss ppc need to be seriously disadvantaged in damage, dps and everything else because the way poking operates is much more advantageous to brawling in itself.

The teams should have to make a move to make something happen. autocnnons, mrm, srm and other weapons should be much more lethal. Otherwise everyone just resorts to poking becaues noone wants to be focus fired in the open.


exactly.

brawling needs to be stronger than sniping to promote dynamic gameplay. otherwise you just get static firing lines and long range/midrange poking.

however on the flipside, brawling should not be so much stronger that teams can just rush into firing lines with brawling builds and always expect to win.

Quote

are headshots really a common enough occurrence for it to be a problem? i think i've only been killed by headshots a dozen or so times in my several years of playing.


they arnt common because most of the combos that can headshot are ghost heated. so right now its not a problem no.

if you start removing ghost heat on PPFLD combos like gauss/ppc and dual ac20 the frequency of headshots will likely increase.

but even if headshots are exceedingly rare, does it really add anything beneficial to the game to allow assault mechs to get killed randomly by some fluke lucky shot? I do like the fact that headshots punish you for shutting down though. there should be consequences for shutting down. which is why I suggested only allowing headshots if the mech is shut down, otherwise just have the damage go to CT.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 03:49 AM.


#702 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:34 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

the night gyr was one of the scariest mechs in the game. thats why it was nerfed.

you act like it was nerfed for no reason. it was nerfed for a very good reason. it was just overnerfed.

brawling needs to be stronger than sniping to promote dynamic gameplay. otherwise you just get static firing lines and long range/midrange poking.


Yeah your not biased at all lolz.

#703 Khobai

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:50 AM

Quote

Yeah your not biased at all lolz.


I never claimed I wasnt biased.

I want a healthy balanced meta where both sniping and brawling coexist.

That is my devious underlying agenda. Congratulations. You figured it out.

#704 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 03:57 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

the night gyr was one of the scariest mechs in the game. thats why it was nerfed.

Report me, But I really feel the need to call you a liar on this. The NTG was a borderline garbage mech from the time of its release. It barely held a spot on meta mechs tier list because of 1 semi good build which didn't even hold up to the fire power of the day, lol much less now. We are talking direwolf level mobility on a 75 tonner before the nerfs.

As to your healthy balanced meta stuff, I call ******** on that as well, What you want is nothing less than a srm spam paradise. I can provide multiple citations upon request.

#705 cougurt

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:04 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

they arnt common because most of the combos that can headshot are ghost heated. so right now its not a problem no.

if you start removing ghost heat on PPFLD combos like gauss/ppc and dual ac20 the frequency of headshots will likely increase.

i've been playing since 6 PPC stalkers were a thing. if headshots weren't an issue then, i don't see how they would be now.

#706 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:07 AM

View Postcougurt, on 11 February 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

i've been playing since 6 PPC stalkers were a thing. if headshots weren't an issue then, i don't see how they would be now.

There not some people are just trying to use the age old tactic of lying SO hard and SO loud that eventually, The lie will become the truth. We must not let that happen.

Eternal vigilance is the cost of a healthy forum and a healthy game.

#707 Scyther

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 04:12 AM

I agree with Khobai and some others that any weapons tuning really should keep in mind that brawling and mid-range combat needs to remain a core element of play.

I don't FP very much, although when I did I noted that 'stand back and pick the dummies off at range when they keep trying to get a look' was both common and quite boring.

I know that in QP when both sides take a stance across the center and peek out from buildings and try to snipe, the games are static and dull. Or when 4 guys on your team try to hang back and snipe while remaining unharmed, it just unbalances the match play.

Sniping and long-range should have a niche in MWO but it is one of the most boring and unsatisfying play styles (except perhaps to a successful sniper). People tend to like the idea of 'I can shoot without getting shot back' too much and it warps the overall game play.

#708 HammerMaster

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:05 AM

View PostHammerMaster, on 10 February 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:


False.
I disagree on all those points.
If implementation was done properly you would NOT need 2x armor/structure.
Eg.
No free c3 lockons.
Beta bloom reticule fixing ppfld
Lore heatscale fixing absurd pplfd (again) builds (remember noisy cricket ppc cicada?)
Ecm (don't get me started)
Universal cool down (small laser and ppc and Gauss all 6 seconds)
"Soft" lock sized hard points (thanks konniving for pointing this out)
Lore build rules (chance rolls, time frames and techs)
Hardcore lore appropriate Battletech checkbook balance simulator. ( Repair and rearm!)


View PostTarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

^ in this post: "how to make half the weapons in the game completely useless."




You all are just spoiled by not experiencing it! Ha!

View PostBombast, on 10 February 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:


Half seems generous. Two thirds, at least.

Man, I think I have balance PTSD after that post.


Success!

Edited by HammerMaster, 11 February 2018 - 05:11 AM.


#709 C E Dwyer

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:05 AM

Warning EGO's will be bruised.

My take on game balance and the boring play.

Yes it's very dull, Chris Lowery's system doesn't work.

It just draws everything into the middle where he's tried to make every weapon play the same.

Now there is nothing wrong with this, if, and only if each Mech gets quirks for various weapon systems so that each variant has a point.

Mr Lowery doesn't want to do this, because it makes his skill tree look a complete failure, yet it's proven to be the one defining factor that bring some measure of balance between high and hard point mounted mechs.

Without quirks the Bushwhacker is just a mech that boats missiles. Without quirks the Annihilator is a nothing mech, the Uziel is a nothing mech because it has poor quirks in comparison, the Urbie also punches above it's weight, because of it's massive armour quirks.

The Grid Iron another example, a nothing mech, that was over quirked so it's single GR fired like a machine gun, suddenly became feared in Q.P. Quirks reduced, virtually disappearing once more.

The Night Gyr feared because it pop tarted and it is far more durable, and did higher damage, than the Victor poptart, (that caused gauss charge up, and hover jets) and had high mobility, (fast torso twist)coupled with above average hard points, needed a massive slap down, and got over slapped, that even if you use all the torso twist quirks is still very bad.

WarHawk a nothing mech, used as a LRM boat by the masses, that is mostly ignored other than by a few comp players, because it's ERPPC Quirks which the average shot in the game can't make use of.

Again it's base mech quirks, and not weapon changes that make this mech work.


Sure there are people that will say oh no that opinion is wrong, I get 600 damage with an Uziel easily in Q.P, but those people tend to be the type of people that frankly could get those kind of scores in an unquirked Vindicator.

The people that have decided between themselves to become the unelectted Voice of the community, are the same people that presented an alternative skill system that was so easily exploitable, it makes the official node system look good by comparison.

These changes won't do anything positive, for the game, just make it more how this very small minority, want to play the game.

It won't make OP mechs chilled, it won't make bad mechs better, it won't bridge any weapon balance between a single mount, and a mech that can boat high multiples.

All these proposed changes will do is make it easier to hit at range, and reduce the need for brawling, the only real change in brawling is the clan SRM Artemis change. this makes the Huntsman and the Hunchback II and Now the Storm crow even more powerful in scouting.

So yeah these proposed idea's are really going to make changes for the better :P

They're not even addressing the issues in the correct order, the core issues of this game which are are.

1. Weapon placement, location, how many can be boated.

2 Mobility, how fast a mech can torso twist is the primary, why sword and board clan builds were so good, and the Night Gyr, but speed is an important factor.

3 Clan equipment weight, and crit slots

4 Clan durability, XL engine, free case, that weighs nothing.

Until these base line mech abilities are addressed, everything else is pointless, these proposed weapon changes are only going to hurt the numbers of people paying to keep this game afloat, because the people that spend in this game are mostly people that are very poor shots, and increasing the range so that the good few shots can pick them off at range is going to cause far more to leave than dull stale game play.

Base line quirks, quirks and more quirks.

Are the only mitigating factors worth looking at, because these are the only things that can on a mech to mech basis, make a low hard point mech.

then only then should weapons be looked at for their personal niche placement, doing it the proposed way is only going to make the things that matter harder to balance.


I do understand why this has been chosen first, it's because, it's the thing P.G.I are most likely to be receptive in altering.


But it's wrong and no matter how well meaning will damage the game, make the average timid person even more timid and stop playing, which is the one thing the comp people never ever take into consideration, the effects on marketing, and sales, only how they want to play the game.

For all P.G.I's faults, they've made a game that while has become increasingly dull, has some elements of balance in it, which is more than can be said for MWLL the most unbalance pile of ****, I've ever played, which many point to as the way to do it right.

If anyone of this imposed 'voice of the community' is actively 'helping' make MWLL please remove yourself from the players committee immediately and take no further part in trying to make this game good, the proof you can't is out there already.

#710 The6thMessenger

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:14 AM

Okay, so:

Dear Navid A1, Tarogato, Mech the Dane, Quicksilver Kalasa

The way i heard it, especially from QK, SRMs and other brawl builds are phased out in higher-play, in comp. So, how do we make brawling viable?

- Do we increase SRM damage?
- Do we reduce SRM spread
- Do we increase SRM velocity?
- Do we reduce SRM heat?

#711 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:39 AM

View PostLionheart2012, on 11 February 2018 - 02:42 AM, said:


This would be a significant deviation from lore where destruction of three critical slots in an engine is considered a destruction of the 'mech. Rather than this and the inherent buffs you suggest that would be needed for standard engines and LFEs, further complicating balance, let's instead make the ISXL more rugged with greater hit points. This has some precedent as the hit points of clan components are less than that of their typically bulkier IS counterparts.

snip

Lore/TT has a FULLY functioning engine crit table where 3 engine crits, be in the RT, LT or CT would scram a mech and shut it down, ie dead. Though, originally I would have preferred said setup, I highly doubt PGI would make it robust enough to be effective without TTK dropping dramatically. And PGI HAD previously made lip service to it several times, primarily EACH TIME PGI either added an engine/heat scale penalty or increased said penalty for the cXL.

And think about how fights would evolve if we had a fully engine crit system that affected mechs. Armor would not be so front loaded and not simple due to lights or but arty strikes, friendly fire.. etc, anything that may damage the rear sections. A sniper able to get the drop on the enemy from the rear.. suddenly mechs dead with only rear armor destroyed and IS damage. And people complained about "pop-tarts"... There is a reason stock load outs have high rear armor values, which were doubled when PGI doubled the Armor/IS values during closed beta, but then only after they had dramatically reduced weapon cooldowns.......

Though the side torso destroyed = dead mech with isXL MIGHT have been fine while it was purely IS vs IS (there was also R&R - high expense on REPAIRING mechs-removed before Clan introduction) but once the Clans were introduced with their LIGHTER and LESS bulky overall components, even more so when the Clan Batttlemechs went live, continuing on with keeping that HUGE distinction between isXL and cXL is no longer warranted imho and many others. Use the lore/tt for the flavor but as this is a FPS and not a dice game, it needs to go.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 February 2018 - 05:41 AM.


#712 TKSax

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:56 AM

View PostJohnathan Tanner, on 11 February 2018 - 03:57 AM, said:

Report me, But I really feel the need to call you a liar on this. The NTG was a borderline garbage mech from the time of its release. It barely held a spot on meta mechs tier list because of 1 semi good build which didn't even hold up to the fire power of the day, lol much less now. We are talking direwolf level mobility on a 75 tonner before the nerfs.

As to your healthy balanced meta stuff, I call ******** on that as well, What you want is nothing less than a srm spam paradise. I can provide multiple citations upon request.


You are way off the NTG, when it was released it had much better mobility, it had a low top speed for a heavy but its accel decel and twist were pretty good. Add on that it was the only heavy that you could run Dual Guass and Dual PPC on, it was the very bets heavy in the game, and possible best mech in the game for a short time. Then the nerfs started and you have the mech that is stuck in Jello as it is today.

#713 Scyther

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:58 AM

Quick reply to The6thMessenger:

You make brawling more viable by making longer-range poking and longer-range PPFLD less viable. Either by weapon change, convergence change, map design, or all three.

Nobody is going to close to brawl range when they get shot to pieces before they reach it.

#714 Water Bear

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:00 AM

View PostTarogato, on 07 February 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

We want to hear what YOU ALL have to say, make modifications to our proposal, and cut down and simplify where necessary. So please, if weapon balance is important to you, take the time to dig in and offer your opinions.


Drive balance decisions by data.

#715 Bud Crue

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:11 AM

View PostWater Bear, on 11 February 2018 - 06:00 AM, said:


Drive balance decisions by data.


What data, and whose?

PGI's data? The data that they claim shows that the Vindicator is within 8% of the performance of the MK-ii? The data that tells them that the Timber outperforms the Ebon and the Hellbringer even in competitive matches, when few teams ever take the thing and the only one that did in the MWOWC got beat? The data that tells them Gauss/PPC is over performing across the board when only like maybe 10 mechs in the whole game can even run it and even less can run it effectively? That data?

That data, and/or PGI's interpretation of it is why we are in the boring mess we are in. If the underlying data is solid then we need some fresh god damn eyes interpreting and applying that data to the game.

#716 ROSS-128

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:15 AM

PGI mostly abandoned tabletop numbers long ago. We don't have TT armor/structure values, we don't have TT engine crits, we don't have TT heatsinks. The large laser family generally does more damage for less heat than their TT counterparts. Almost every weapon has had its heat value adjusted.

Of course there is a good reason for all of this. Battletech with TT values makes for a good, if a little rules-heavy, RPG. But it's a terrible wargame, and a worse PvP FPS. It would be like trying to play Dungeons and Dragons as a PvP FPS using strict adherence to 3.5e rules, leveling system and all, and wondering why the new player experience is so toxic.

And having TT Clans is like letting some players play as the monsters/BBEG, and wondering why the meta consists mostly of elder dragons and lich kings.

#717 Chados

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:07 AM

View PostKhobai, on 11 February 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

the night gyr was one of the scariest mechs in the game. thats why it was nerfed.

you act like it was nerfed for no reason. it was nerfed for a very good reason. it was just overnerfed.


God yes it was overnerfed. It’s a 75 ton mech that an Atlas beats on mobility.

#718 Vonbach

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:16 AM

View PostChados, on 11 February 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:



God yes it was overnerfed. It’s a 75 ton mech that an Atlas beats on mobility.


Good. It was stupidly overpowered and everyone knew it.

#719 HammerMaster

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:20 AM

Ya. Give it's mobility back. Not it's weapons prowess.

View PostChados, on 11 February 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:


God yes it was overnerfed. It’s a 75 ton mech that an Atlas beats on mobility.

But can't compare to Atlas as it could use some mobility as well.
As in: what's baseline for a heavy mech moving 4/6?(which is NOT slow btw. You're spoiled by oversize engines. 5/8)

Edited by HammerMaster, 11 February 2018 - 07:28 AM.


#720 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:50 AM

View PostNavid A1, on 11 February 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:


Still discussing it

Speaking for myself here... I will not surrender just because 4 people are having nightmares about a time when many of the current factors were not even in the game.

Gauss+PPC builds were dead even before the ghost heat.

Agility nerfs killed them.


Single Gauss 2 ER PPC builds at the very least would be the bigger part of that. Unlocks a lot of options.

View PostFleeb the Mad, on 10 February 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:


Do we really forget the sins of the past so easily? Gauss + 2 PPC was also the favourite flavour during the poptart meta days. Responsible for the charge-up mechanic and the nerfing of PPC velocity into uselessness. Trying to balance them as a combination always, always caused problems. It was difficult to make them useful individually without making the combination too strong and vice-versa.

If you look at most ghost heat limitations on the long range weapons, they tend to cap out at 30 damage. Two gauss rifles, two cERPPCs, three ER LLas, then further down to two cERLLas, two ER PPC.

There's no good reason to put Gauss + 2 PPC as a special case with a special advantage. It would follow if you did that it would be sensible to increase ghost heat groups for ER PPC/cER PPC to 3 and ER LLas to plus one as well. Neither of those are as effective as Gauss + Anything because of heat, but this would be the foundation of a campaign to reduce long-range ghost heat groupings for more powerful alphas.

I'm not cool with that honestly. Fighting at long range with poke trading is rather too easy in MWO in terms of risk/reward. Given that nobody who's been a proponent of this Gauss + PPC thing has been pushing for any of the competing long range groups to be improved, I can only take it as people just wanting the power combo back. It promotes gameplay that I personally find terribly stale. No thanks.


If you rationally evaulate the state of the current game rather than tremble in fear at the thought of a time so long ago then it starts to make more sense.

I haven't forgotten. The Timber with a Gauss and 2 ER PPCs wasn't a showstopper before ghost heat. Don't see how it would magically become OP now, with the level of firepower being thrown around that has increased due to new tech.





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