347 replies to this topic

[Mole]

My favorite part is when OP whines that IS has RACs but clans have "NO BALLISTICS!!!!!!!!1111one"


Seriously dude. Clans have Ballistics and no, they don't all suck.

Edited by Mole, 12 February 2018 - 01:59 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

naterist, on 12 February 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

reset the tonnages and then see whos getting rolled. IS only succeeds because they can bring big mechs in bulk. take away the weight advantage and theyll have nothing.

Just slight edit.. not just brining big mechs but also which side a majority of the active Mercs go, whether as mercs or touring as Loyalists for mech bays.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 February 2018 - 02:02 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

I remember the old days arguing that Black Knight vs Timber Wolf, the BK would kill a TW CT before the TW could take out a side torso on the XL based builds mathematically speaking, then on top of that the BK had way better hitboxes and could run STD engine builds without much trouble.

Whoa. Flashback to the threads where Clanners were actually admitting that becaue the IS had a mech that could match or exceed Timber performance that the game wasn’t worth playing...because of one single mech. One single mech was too much for them, despite the fact that they had just finished dominating the IS map and winning the first Tuk with that mech present.

And yet even if we accept that horrid state of revisionist historical “imbalance’ (again an imbalance that was perceived because of a single mech) that dread period lasted for a whole 4 months according to the post above. Yet even then, the IS was NOT absolutely dominating the game at best they held there own for a very brief period. Alas, the days of the IS having one supposedly super duper OP didn’t last for long. What’s funny is that if you buy the whining of late, now the IS has TWO horrors of “absolute domination”: the unstoppable Assassin and the scourge of scouting: the Bushwacker; scary times for Clanners, scary times.

[Lykaon]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

Yet I main Hellbringers, have 4 of them mastered, have pictures of me getting 12 kills in a match without dying as my first drop Hellbringer. Yet I realize that just having a high alpha, ecm, and moving a little faster than the IS mechs isn't the only thing that matters. The 78 damage alpha of Hellbringers has a ~1.55s duration, while the IS durations max out at 1.1, the same as a clan ER small laser.

The idea behind IS mechs isn't to outdo the clans in the alpha game (though you can if you trade well and spread well), its to beat them via pushes, since you'll outbrawl clan mechs due to having higher agility, higher sustain, higher durability, and lower duration lasers and lower facetime or more precise ballistics and missiles.



If you aren't using an IS mech with durability quirks you're ISing wrong.

And you don't find the significant damage output and manuverability adiquate compensation for I.S. higher durability?

You're argument leverages on a half a second laser burn duration? really? how often does the ECM give you the first shot? without being seen? So the enemy doesn't react for half a second or more.

So you're saying inner sphere durabity quirks + half a second average lower burn durations tips the scales in their favor over what all clan mechs have

Imagine if the clan tech package was instead a list of quirks. How OP would it sound if a mech had quirks like...

Streak missile launchers +90m range
Streak missile launchers -25% weight
SRM launchers -50% weight
LRM launcher -50% weight
Endo steel - 50% crits
Ferro fibrous - 50% crits
Ferro Fibrious 5% more armor per ton
Double heatsinks -33% crits
XL engines -33% crits and does not trigger mech destruction on side torso loss
MG (all types) -50% weight
Active probes -50% crit
Active probes -33% weight
ECM -50% crit
ECM - 33% weight
Free CASE on everything ( 4 free tons of stuff )
Gauss rifles weight 3 tons less
Gauss rilfes use 1 fewer crit slot
NARC + 150m range
NARC - 33% weight
NARC -50% crit

This is on EVERY clan mech and are effectivley quirks.Every clan mech gets ALL these "quirks" .

And this is not a complete list of superior equipment.

Edited by Lykaon, 12 February 2018 - 02:43 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Bud Crue, on 12 February 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

What’s funny is that if you buy the whining of late, now the IS has TWO horrors of “absolute domination”: the unstoppable Assassin and the scourge of scouting: the Bushwacker; scary times for Clanners, scary times.

Don't forget the "Invincible Iron Man Annihilator" and "Assault armoured Urbanmech"

[Mcgral18]

Yondu the Ravager, on 12 February 2018 - 12:57 AM, said:

I love how people shittalk the OP when they couldn't even hold a candle to his skill.

Many of us can

[Johnny Z]

This topic is so beautiful I cried tears of joy.

[Mole]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 February 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Don't forget the "Invincible Iron Man Annihilator" and "Assault armoured Urbanmech"

I have also seen some clan whining about Heavy Gauss rushes being impossible to counter.

[countTZT]

Clans are sistematically wrecked by IS mechs in all the ways already described by the author of the post; they just can't hold anymore their counterparts in several ways, wheter those are the ridicolous quirks on IS mechs (whit even negative quirks on some poor clans [read MAD-CAT]) or just the better general skills on firepower and structure.

The IS are allowed to maintain a firepower matching that of the clans, thanks to the opportunity to get to shoot and extra LL, and still to keep an advantagious heat level gentily provided by the quirks. The duration of course is simply a good half of that of clans, which apart from all the benefits that it applies to the player, does actually register better on those mechs which tend to bug.

DPS is just non existing in clans; ballistics are useless, heat up, jam and are damned spred in time. There is more DPS on a Heavy Gauss than on a cUAC-20, as the latter blocks down for some 10 seconds if jams (and if it can jam, it will). IS has those RACs at least, which still do their job.

The last thing that clans had was the certainty to not being shot down losing a torso, an interesting feature that got resized not only by all the penalties you get for loosing one, but also due the now existance of the IS light engines, a choise that most people will take as the engine itself is now just related to the top speed of the mech (and some extra heat sinks, of course).

Said so, even those more relentlessy proclaimers of the clan superiority have to notice that the IS waiting cue is just limitless. You simply don't drop with IS. I guess people just like to play "inferior mechs".

Clan op, pgi pls nerf

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mole, on 12 February 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

I have also seen some clan whining about Heavy Gauss rushes being impossible to counter.

OH! Plus the "SUPER-OP BLR-1G" with ERLLs + a range quirk

[Deathlike]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

So it has sustainability but also more damage in a shorter duration of time over the Summoner, and within reason, why does the accel and decel matter for peeking if you're using your jump jets for peeking since the whole point of the build is that you're a poptart?

It does matter to make better jumps. When was the last time anyone saw a literal jumping Grasshopper poptarting with PPCs? It literally is something as rare as a Vindicator. Summoners were a better poptarting option, even when it didn't even get nipple PPCs.

Quote

Also, not supposed to have sustainability with ERPPCs? Then why does cooling matter so much if you suddenly don't need sustain? What's the problem about having sustain anyway, that's more just a side affect of the build since it has lower heat gen? You say it as if not overheating in a situation where opportunity arises and there is a target rich environment, such as a push of some sort, is a bad thing.

Sustainability is a good thing if you have heat efficient builds or large bursts of damage. Damaging 20 damage more frequently than dealing 30 damage (obviously 20+10 splash) a little less frequently depends on how superquirked the mech is. Since we're not dealing with 8 heat IS ERPPCs (which made the Thunderbolt-9S a great ERPPC spammer for its brief time), your numbers are irrelevent to practical results.

Essentially, if it isn't even considered in comp play, there's usually a good reason for it.

Quote

Lastly:
>Murdered things with dual ERPPC Summoner out in quickplay
>That means anything at all when pretty much any mech does that with proper piloting

How about we just keep looking at the empirical data rather than the equivalent to "hey dood, look at this screenshot of me doing 1000 damage in X, that totally proves my point". Going with the cop out of "I'm not going to build a 2 ERPPC Grasshopper... I already know how crappy that build is to begin with." is no better than the IS loyalists who never use clan tech saying Clans OP.

I used a lot of IS tech... and I have a pretty good idea how damage and heat in this game works. I don't just go strictly by the numbers... I play the stuff, and self-evaluate. Trust me when I say that 3 IS PPCs were superior than 2 IS ERPPCs back when they had dumb (as in really ridiculously hilarious PGI-level) heat values prior to ghost heat. More damage in a short window is a lot more detrimental than less damage in a slightly longer window. Noone uses PPCs like they were chainguns, and not get a larger and more focused alpha in return (even CERPPC Warhawks are not a good thing when they are just strictly chain firing - they are at their best when they shoot their loads in bursts).

Hey, you don't have to believe me. Too bad that's Jarl's List is down. I'm just a DivA MRBC scrub after all.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 February 2018 - 04:40 PM.

[Sunstruck]

The clans have always dominated the map, and they still do. I'm calling bs on "clan overnerfed".

[Horseman]

countTZT, on 12 February 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

Clans are sistematically wrecked by IS mechs in all the ways already described by the author of the post; they just can't hold anymore their counterparts in several ways, wheter those are the ridicolous quirks on IS mechs (whit even negative quirks on some poor clans [read MAD-CAT]) or just the better general skills on firepower and structure

If that was truly the case, explain the current state of FW map.

[PocketYoda]

Yondu the Ravager, on 12 February 2018 - 12:57 AM, said:

I love how people shittalk the OP when they couldn't even hold a candle to his skill.

Yes because skill is what makes brains...

[Peiper]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Of course you can nerf the Clan tech or buff the IS tech to have them in same level competence, while keeping them different. PGI simply is not doing it. There is absolutely no excuse for IS XL to stay strictly inferior than Clan XL for 3 years, for the MP only game. Quirks aint working well cause base tech is not equal. Tweak them into same level competence and suddenly you won't see 80% of the mechs used in MWOWC being Clan mechs for two years in a row.




That will simply force people to play mechs they do not want to play. That's a negative.




That will result in even more complicated MM formula and longer wait time, without the benefit of better MM.

1. We're not arguing about the same thing. I'm arguing that nerfing/boosting mechs is not the answer, battle value is. You're arguing that nerfing/boosting IS the answer, because you disregard battle value. Your argument only works if BV doesn't exist. My argument only works if you throw BV into the mix.

2. Currently I feel forced to play mechs I don't want to play because I know I can help the team best in them. I can't 'play around' with my other mechs because the team would be unduly burdened as I tried to have fun with them. I'm not the best player, but I can play well if I take ONLY my best mechs. I want to take others, but I cannot without hurting my team. With Battle Value, you can play any mech you want - but if you're really good in that mech, you might only play people who are really good in other really good mechs. Great practice for the comp players, to be sure, and I doubt that queue would suffer despite my worst case scenario example.

3. Computers do math for us. So a more or less complicated matchmaker would not be noticed by the players unless we're talking wait times. Worst case scenario is that players at one extreme or another (bad players in bad mechs/great players in great mechs) might have a harder time finding matches. Currently matchmaker puts me and my mediocre players up against the best players in the game, over and over again. I'd rather wait awhile to get a good match than have a short wait and get stomped.

And seriously, Bandito. Let's say you are a great player (no idea, I don't care). Let's say you want to slum around in an Awesome or Panther. You're still going to have fun, because you'll be matchmade not against the best players in the best mechs, but against other good players in bad mechs or bad players in good mechs. EVERYONE will still have fun. Right now, that isn't the case.

Edited by Peiper, 12 February 2018 - 05:30 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Horseman, on 12 February 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

If that was truly the case, explain the current state of FW map.

MUH, MUH, MUH GHOST DROPS

[Racerxintegra2k]

Clans Still OP continue nerf please. Thank You.

[Johnny Z]

Its refreshing to see quality topics of this caliber on these forums.

[VitriolicViolet]

urgh more of the 'Clans got nerfed' nonsense quickly followed by flawed comparisons of tech and mechs

As usual in my opinion the only mechs we should focus on for tech comparisons are ONI-IIC-B and ONI-K
Both of these mechs have the same hardpoints in very similiar locations, their hitboxes are very close, same tonnage, same mobility (accel/decel etc). you can also do it with some of the IS/Clan Highlanders, HGN-IIC and HGN-732

the only difference between them is quirks and tech
ONI-IIC-B 'Oni-Chan'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da98d5f2a7c02a6
1x LB20, 4x CMPL, 2x CSRM6, 350 XL, 14 DHS. 1.23 Heat efficiency

ONI-K 'Sand Crawler'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52e6f35526e3f66
1x AC20, 4x MPL, 2x SRM6, AMS, 300 LFE, 19 DHS. 1.3 Heat efficiency

So its pretty easy to see just how much advantage Clan mechs get. they are running what is effectively the same build (there is only 1.5 ton difference in engine weight and 18 KPH)
The IS mech gets double the armor quirks of the Clan (23+ CT vs 12+ CT) as well as the IS mech recieving some weapon quirks. The IS mech gets 1.23 for heat efficiency vs 1.3.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

VitriolicViolet, on 12 February 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

urgh more of the 'Clans got nerfed' nonsense quickly followed by flawed comparisons of tech and mechs

As usual in my opinion the only mechs we should focus on for tech comparisons are ONI-IIC-B and ONI-K
Both of these mechs have the same hardpoints in very similiar locations, their hitboxes are very close, same tonnage, same mobility (accel/decel etc). you can also do it with some of the IS/Clan Highlanders, HGN-IIC and HGN-732

the only difference between them is quirks and tech
ONI-IIC-B 'Oni-Chan'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da98d5f2a7c02a6
1x LB20, 4x CMPL, 2x CSRM6, 350 XL, 14 DHS. 1.23 Heat efficiency

ONI-K 'Sand Crawler'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52e6f35526e3f66
1x AC20, 4x MPL, 2x SRM6, AMS, 300 LFE, 19 DHS. 1.3 Heat efficiency

So its pretty easy to see just how much advantage Clan mechs get. they are running what is effectively the same build (there is only 1.5 ton difference in engine weight and 18 KPH)
The IS mech gets double the armor quirks of the Clan (23+ CT vs 12+ CT) as well as the IS mech recieving some weapon quirks. The IS mech gets 1.23 for heat efficiency vs 1.3.

I don't get it, neither of those builds are really good, why even bring SRM6s if you aren't packing Artemis on a 75 ton mech? Might as well go with MRMs for the IS one, it'll spread about the same but you'll have more range.

Just put this one together:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b593be4f1bef955

Has a bit more ranged punch than your build, and 70-90 damage alpha depending on if the double tap goes through. You even get more sustained damage and durability than the Clan one. Quirks also give the Orion 10% less heat on everything and 10% lower cooldowns on those ballistics, and due to the higher armor quirks the skill tree further widens the gap, along with the better heat gen and cooldown nodes IS gets.