718 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

Do those have 12 mg?

Right here you endorsed actions against mechs with 4 machine guns and more:

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 06:13 AM, said:

Pretty much my ideas too firing more than 4 mgs incurs ghost heat or some such.. can still carry eight or more  but must fire them in groups of four

All the mechs listed by Battlemaster utilize 4 to 8 and not 12 ... and the one mech that actually can use 12 certainly doesn't bring too much besides those 12 mg.</p>

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 March 2018 - 11:24 AM.

[Imperius]

Der Geisterbaer, on 16 March 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

Right here you endorsed actions against mechs with 4 machine guns and more:



All the mechs listed by Battlemaster utilize 4 to 8 and not 12 ... and the one mech that actually can use 12 certainly doesn't bring too much besides those 12 mg.&lt;/p&gt;

Well darn that’s how I felt about dual gauss dual er-ppcs. Chris said since only a couple of mechs could do it it needed penalties. Shame because that alpha I rarely had to use was when mechs did get into close range of me.

Edited by Imperius, 16 March 2018 - 11:38 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

Well darn that’s how I felt about dual gauss dual er-ppcs.

And now tell me: what's the pin point damage of that weapon combo at what range!? Then tell me again about those "imba" machine guns ...

[Jman5]

Quote

So I'm all good with "rock, paper, scissors" and lights killing assaults especially when lights hunt in packs. A 100 ton sloth should fear a pack of 20 ton coyotes. But 100 ton assault shouldn't fear a single 20 ton mech with just machine guns... kinda silly in my view. Unless said assault is already considerably damaged. As it is, the with the DPS a piranha can put out it can shred the armor and start critting before most pilots can put it down.

This is what it always comes down to for people who want to nerf lights. They believe that the game should be balanced so that bigger = better. That Lights should have to double, triple, quadruple team an assault to beat it in a fight. They feel it is unfair whenever a healthy light kills a healthy assault

This is a misguided belief and actually flies in the face of how PGI has always wanted to balance the game. They wanted to go beyond previous Mechwarrior games and make all weight classes equally dangerous in their own way. I don't think they have ever gotten there, but it's probably better than previous titles.

If this was a single player game, then fine, but you're not fighting swarms of NPCs. Each one of those lights is a player just like you who wants to do well. Balancing the game so that he is straight up inferior to bigger mechs just turns the game into go big or go home.

Perhaps if you thought of this less in tonnage and more like a traditional RPG it would be easier to accept.

• Assaults are Warriors: Strong attack, can take a lot of punishment, but slow.

• Lights are Rogues: Fast and agile, they attack the weak points for critical damage, hard to hit, but ultimately fragile.

Now how fun would it be to play a Rogue character if in a fair fight they just got demolished by all the other classes? Nobody would play them. If I use my advantages as a rogue well, I should be just as credible a threat as any other class. The same applies to Light mechs.


A well played light should be a frustrating and difficulty opponent to beat just like a well played assault frustrates me.

Edited by Jman5, 16 March 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[Imperius]

Der Geisterbaer, on 16 March 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

And now tell me: what's the pin point damage of that weapon combo at what range!? Then tell me again about those &quot;imba&quot; machine guns ...

What’s the DPS on yours? So what’s your point?

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

What’s the DPS on yours?

Less than the 12 dps at 120m that still require some serious face time an with which you you seem to have your problems.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

So what’s your point?

It's doubtful that you'd understand with yet another explanation.

[YueFei]

Jman5, on 16 March 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

Perhaps if you thought of this less in tonnage and more like a traditional RPG it would be easier to accept.

• Assaults are Warriors: Strong attack, can take a lot of punishment, but slow.

• Lights are Rogues: Fast and agile, they attack the weak points for critical damage, hard to hit, but ultimately fragile.

Now how fun would it be to play a Rogue character if in a fair fight they just got demolished by all the other classes? Nobody would play them. If I use my advantages as a rogue well, I should be just as credible a threat as any other class. The same applies to Light mechs.

A well played light should be a frustrating and difficulty opponent to beat just like a well played assault frustrates me.

While I agree that Light vs Assault can be likened to Rogue vs Warrior, and that a single Light should be able to defeat a single Assault... that only covers 1v1 scenarios.

1 Rogue can beat 1 Warrior in a duel. But make it even 2 Rogues vs 2 Warriors, and the odds tip heavily in favor of the Warriors. That's because the Warriors can cover each other's dead zones (completely eliminating dead zone kiting which is only viable in duels), can peel the Rogues off of each other, and the AoE's from the Warriors overlap to hit both Rogues (both AoE attacks and shouts). It only landslides more in favor of Warriors with larger numbers.

In the same way, even if Light > Assault, it won't necessarily hold up in a scenario where it's Lights vs Assaults. The Assaults can form into a combat box and cover each other's backs.

This is why in the team deathmatch format of MWO, Lights are still underperforming, and in fact I would be in favor of more buffs for Lights.

[Imperius]

Der Geisterbaer, on 16 March 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

Less than the 12 dps at 120m that still require some serious face time an with which you you seem to have your problems.



It's doubtful that you'd understand with yet another explanation.

... you don’t even know, and you’re mistaken I understand completely, but I don’t care.

The particular build broken down in Reddit

“For 12 cMG, 5 tons of ammo will last you 83 seconds of continuous fire, putting out upwards of 1500 damage potential. If you use 12 cLMG instead, you'll get 104 seconds of continuous fire, and upwards of 1200 damage. I really have no read on whether this variant will be good or not. Every fibre in my being tells me that being able to put out 1200“ is broke as f***”

It’s broken like my set up supposedly was.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

... you don’t even know

I certainly do know ... your participation in this thread is a testamony to you having "issues" / "problems"

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

and you’re mistaken I understand completely, but I don’t care.

Let's just say that this is the kind of attempt of weasling yourself out of an argument where you get no foot on the ground.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

The particular build broken down in Reddit

“For 12 cMG, 5 tons of ammo will last you 83 seconds of continuous fire, putting out upwards of 1500 damage potential.

And then you start realizing that the 5t ammo variant not only has to forego heavier lasers that it'll need for opening up backs in the first place, still has to shave off armor from arms (and head), spreads those 1500 potential damage over multiple hit locations when actually trying to stay behind a mech whom's pilot isn't just standing still and it has to expose its below 120 points of armor got those whole 83s in order to actually put those potential 1500 into enemy mechs.

Now tell me how many assaults have to actually expose themselves for the same amont of time for the same damage and how much armor do they carry?

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

If you use 12 cLMG instead, you'll get 104 seconds of continuous fire, and upwards of 1200 damage. I really have no read on whether this variant will be good or not.

Well since you don't care by your own admission I won't tell you:

- cLMG build on a PIR is stupid<li>

- Neither a 12 cMG nor a cLMG will come close to those potential damage numbers on a regular basis. Sure you'll get over 1000 every once in a while but even good PIR-1 pilots are more likely to end up only between 400 and 800 in a good match ... and even good pilots do have game where they're lucky to get over 100 points of damage because sometimes "shidd jusd huppns"<li>
You'll rarely ever see even 12cMGs builds that actually field 5t of ammo. More likely they come with 3.5t to 4t</u>

So instead of doing your "feely-craft" based on a not necessarily good "reddit" posting I'd suggest that you get yourself a PIR-1 and try doing those miracle numbers yourself ... preferably on a constistant level of at least 50 to 100 matches.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

Every fibre in my being tells me that being able to put out 1200“ is broke as f***”

And that's why so few thread participants actually give a damn about your opinion in terms at least considering irs worth for something to be discussed in order to find a compromise.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

It’s broken like my set up supposedly was.

No ... but that's one of things you don't care about by your own admission and thus your whole argument is not made in order to have an actual discussion but rather to make yourself comfortable with your anger about the nerfs that your preferred build received.

At least now nobody has to ask himself if your experiences are just off base or you simply don't know what you're talking about: You just admitted to not knowing.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 March 2018 - 01:35 PM.

[Imperius]

You claimed dual gauss dual er ppc was broken. It’s not a DPS weapon. Chris thought it wasn’t fair and nerfed it. So I ask the same nerf here. Lower the DPS potential via the community favorite system “Ghost Heat”

It’s an outlier mech (that’s another favorite saying)

So time to reel in the fish!

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

You claimed dual gauss dual er ppc was broken.

Care to provide proof for that by quoting me on any such claim that I allegedly made? The only thing I wrote concerning that particular weapon combo was a question to you which asked you to provide pinpoint alpha damage numbers and range ...

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

It’s not a DPS weapon.

Another thing that I never claimed otherwise. You're the one who first called the PIR-1s damage output "OP" and then brought said weapon combo into the discussion.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Chris thought it wasn’t fair and nerfed it.

And he doesn't seem to think that the PIR-1 is a problem

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

So I ask the same nerf here.

And that's where your demand get intellectually dishonest:
On the one hand you claim that the nerf on your beloved combo was actually not warranted. On the other hand you now demand that a build that YOU claim is similarly "broken" should be nerfed as well but this time suggesting that the PIR-1 is actually OP.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Lower the DPS potential via the community favorite system “Ghost Heat”

And people have told you that ghost heat doesn't work on machine guns in the first place ... And another intellectual dishonesty right there: Ghost Heat by no means is "the community favorite" system ... and no saying that you meant that as sarcasm won't save you there.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

It’s an outlier mech (that’s another favorite saying)

Than show us the associated statistics that prove the "outlier" nature.

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

So time to reel in the fish!

More like time to stop being a hypocrite and liar.

[Imperius]

He doesn’t think it’s a problem yet...

Outlier - how many mechs can equip 12 machine guns?

Edited by Imperius, 16 March 2018 - 02:12 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

He doesn’t think it’s a problem yet...

Outlier - how many mechs can equip 12 machine guns?

Outlier how many lights do we have that are threats? 1 maybe 2?

[Imperius]

Darian DelFord, on 16 March 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Outlier how many lights do we have that are threats? 1 maybe 2?

Still an outlier that needs to be brought back in line.

[Battlemaster56]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

Still an outlier that needs to be brought back in line.

How you do that without shafting the rest it's variants or other mechs that use mg's. Because just by example the KDK3 was a notable outlier but when nerfs came out the whole KDK line of mechs was basically destroyed because of one outlier, I rather not destroy a whole line of mechs because one variant that stands out.

PGI do broad stroke nerfs not precision from just looking at their history.

[Zergling]

Jman5, on 16 March 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

They feel it is unfair whenever a healthy light kills a healthy assault

Correction: they even feel it is unfair when a healthy light kills an already near-dead assault.

Edited by Zergling, 16 March 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[naterist]

Battlemaster56, on 16 March 2018 - 03:42 PM, said:

How you do that without shafting the rest it's variants or other mechs that use mg's. Because just by example the KDK3 was a notable outlier but when nerfs came out the whole KDK line of mechs was basically destroyed because of one outlier, I rather not destroy a whole line of mechs because one variant that stands out.

PGI do broad stroke nerfs not precision from just looking at their history.

honostly, just nerf its crit chance, or nerf the damage it does when it crits. the problem doesnt lie in its damage output, it lies in its ability to remove all weapons from an otherwise healthy mech then dip.

alternatively, or perhaps in cunjunction, they could buff component health on every component, and super buff the health on the larger sized ballistics and mrms

[Battlemaster56]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Not my problem that’s for Chris to figure out

I’d lazily do x amount of mg = +Heat then Ghost Heat

Because that’s how my preferred chassis constantly gets nerfed. Laziness

IDK what your preferred chassis is but you suggesting to add heat to mg so you can add GH to them to shaft the PIR, but not only that but the Mist Lynx, Cheetah, Shadow Cat, Fury hero, Arrow hero, and the Flea coming up. Because "laziness", come on.

naterist, on 16 March 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

honostly, just nerf its crit chance, or nerf the damage it does when it crits. the problem doesnt lie in its damage output, it lies in its ability to remove all weapons from an otherwise healthy mech then dip. alternatively, or perhaps in cunjunction, they could buff component health on every component, and super buff the health on the larger sized ballistics and mrms

Clan MG's already got nerf in their crit chance and damage just a way to prenerf the PIR, and while I would be ok with increase hp on equipment it won't do much since L/MG still gonna shred through no matter what. Also I want to avoid shafting niche weapons as their function is very limited.

[Imperius]

I’m suggesting add heat after x amount of mg’s

[Brain Cancer]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

I’m suggesting add heat after x amount of mg’s

Because surely, ghost heat fixes everything.

Nah. Just make MGs spin-up and after a certain point, they start generating steady heat until hitting max ROF/heat load. That's not only a decent way to control MGs, it's actually a decent twist on tabletop's high-ROF-MG rule.