718 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 08:57 PM, said:

Humanoid mechs always suffer compared to chicken walkers. I never foresaw that engine decoupling would be the final nail though.

Not necessarily, but as always it depends on the specific rendition. Rule of thumb though is that chicken 'Mechs with long torsos like the MKII and STK are better at face-forward technique while humanoid ones are better at shielding. But in truth, the ideal 'Mech shape is basically the Urbanmech.

Quote

All conversations here are pretty much speculation.

All the speculative ones are, yes.

[Zergling]

TechChris, on 18 March 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Well, it's not really fair comparing the performance of MGs on a Piranha versus Blackjack.
That'd kinda be like trying to compare the performance of UACs on Blackjack versus MCII-B.

Well, 6x HMG is 8.4 DPS plus 3x Medium Pulse for another 5.28 DPS, that is a total of 13.68 DPS.
Despite putting out more DPS output than 12x cMG, I was still only barely able to beat a laser vomit Ebon Jaguar in a DPS contest at point blank range.

And the Blackjack is considerably tougher than the Piranha in those circumstances, which shows that the Piranha will absolutely lose DPS contests if the opponent doesn't suck at aiming.

Imperius, on 18 March 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

Bro can you read?

I said 12mg’s is op and again how many mechs can equip that? The MG itself is fine just like a single gauss or er-ppc.

You aren't the only person arguing against MGs in this thread; my post was directed at other posts arguing that MGs entirely are OP, even 4-6 MGs on non-light mechs (eg, the discussion about a six MG Mauler being 'OP').

[The GaussFather]

Zergling, on 18 March 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

Well, 6x HMG is 8.4 DPS plus 3x Medium Pulse for another 5.28 DPS, that is a total of 13.68 DPS.
Despite putting out more DPS output than 12x cMG, I was still only barely able to beat a laser vomit Ebon Jaguar in a DPS contest at point blank range.

And the Blackjack is considerably tougher than the Piranha in those circumstances, which shows that the Piranha will absolutely lose DPS contests if the opponent doesn't suck at aiming.





You aren't the only person arguing against MGs in this thread; my post was directed at other posts arguing that MGs entirely are OP, even 4-6 MGs on non-light mechs (eg, the discussion about a six MG Mauler being 'OP').

I would rather fight a slower "but tougher" BlackJack any day over a Piranha. Its not just the DPS but the whole package... 12 MGs and a small FAST target. Yes you can kill them, even me, with my pathetic skill, have managed to leg and/or kill them since I started this thread. Blackjacks are great mechs to pilot and not to be underestimated but I think the PIR-1 has stretched the games "design quirks" too far.

If you have the optimal set-up: fast pc/graphics card, no lag internet, optimal mouse/control system, and ideally a laser vomit mech, great positioning with a wall blocking your back and teammates watching, then you don't fear a PIR.

But when one is zig zagging at you and you are sure you hit the sucker like 3 times and no damage... and then it literally shreds you up close... something's not right... its absolutely frustrating and it started a little bit when the 8MG Myst Lynx was introduced, sometimes that "indestructible" annoying ecm Artctic Cheetah we've all run into... but I can live with those mechs in the game.

The PIR-1 is potentially a game breaker due to its 12MG "buzzsaw" performance (I don't mean damage at the end of the match... someone was totally correct in that it has ammo limits) but rather ability to take down mechs 5 times its size and supposed firepower in a few seconds. Heck I'm buying some for c-bills but I reckon by then they will be nerfed...

Many posters are saying show me "stats" but besides hard data there is accepted science based on allegory/stories/interviews/experiences. Its not just "stats" its how one perceives the game play.

Perception is much more critical than numbers. Any marketing expert, politician, or social scientist will tell you that.

The fact this originally somewhat ridiculous thread has lived on so long is definitely not "logical". We are emotional, irrational, and flawed, what we perceive becomes our experience becomes real.

Plenty of stories on this thread support my OP. The deniers want data that PGI isn't giving us and probably never will. So I guess when this post hits 1000 comments maybe PGI will look at it, until then keep raging!

Edited by The GaussFather, 18 March 2018 - 11:11 PM.

[The GaussFather]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 March 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not necessarily, but as always it depends on the specific rendition. Rule of thumb though is that chicken 'Mechs with long torsos like the MKII and STK are better at face-forward technique while humanoid ones are better at shielding. But in truth, the ideal 'Mech shape is basically the Urbanmech.

Not to mention no yaw limits and tons of armor! What fun! See... sometimes you have to enjoy the game... Bishop will always have a small place in my heart for suggesting the K-9: Sirens, lights, RAC5... what could be more fun to pilot?

Maybe a Piranha? can't say I've tried it yet.

You know, Bishop is like the original forum warrior... he must have given up on this thread back in page 10 or something. Bishop are you out there??

[Zergling]

The GaussFather, on 18 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

I would rather fight a slower "but tougher" BlackJack any day over a Piranha. Its not just the DPS but the whole package... 12 MGs and a small FAST target. Yes you can kill them, even me, with my pathetic skill, have managed to leg and/or kill them since I started this thread. Blackjacks are great mechs to pilot and not to be underestimated but I think the PIR-1 has stretched the games "design quirks" too far.

Oh, I know the Piranha is a lot harder to hit than a Blackjack, but when it is hit, it will go down fast.

My point was that in a DPS contest where both mechs are being hit, a Piranha will die much sooner than it will 'buzzsaw' through an enemy mech.

I mean, if a Piranha is winning a DPS contest, then the other mech simply isn't aiming well enough.

The GaussFather, on 18 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

If you have the optimal set-up: fast pc/graphics card, no lag internet, optimal mouse/control system, and ideally a laser vomit mech, great positioning with a wall blocking your back and teammates watching, then you don't fear a PIR. Posted Image

I normally play on the NA server with a 250ms ping, and despite not being a great shot I do not have an unusual amount of trouble hitting Piranha or other light mechs.

I also don't have problems with non-laser weapons.

Eg, I had a Locust circling my King Crab yesterday, and I managed to blap it in the chest with a double tap from my UAC20. Instant solo kill.

The GaussFather, on 18 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:

But when one is zig zagging at you and you are sure you hit the sucker like 3 times and no damage... and then it literally shreds you up close... something's not right... its absolutely frustrating and it started a little bit when the 8MG Myst Lynx was introduced, sometimes that "indestructible" annoying ecm Artctic Cheetah we've all run into... but I can live with those mechs in the game.

You are describing bad hit registration, which appears to be a server side problem.

I don't know what causes it, but I don't feel light mechs are more effected by it than other mechs; I recall a bunch of times I've nailed heavier mechs with PPC shots to no effect, or I've launched multiple 4-6x SRM6 salvos at close range that barely scratch the paint.

Bad hit registration seems to be fairly rare now though, it's been a long time since I last noticed it (although to be honest, that might be because I don't play as much as I used to do).

Edited by Zergling, 19 March 2018 - 12:23 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

My main gripe with piranhas is that when those 12MGs start shooting at my front, my FPS go so low, I have trouble aiming. 8MGs are OKish, 12 do not.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 19 March 2018 - 01:55 AM.

[TechChris]

Zergling, on 18 March 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

Well, 6x HMG is 8.4 DPS plus 3x Medium Pulse for another 5.28 DPS, that is a total of 13.68 DPS.
Despite putting out more DPS output than 12x cMG, I was still only barely able to beat a laser vomit Ebon Jaguar in a DPS contest at point blank range.

And the Blackjack is considerably tougher than the Piranha in those circumstances, which shows that the Piranha will absolutely lose DPS contests if the opponent doesn't suck at aiming.

Yes yes, you are technically correct. On paper in a static environment, I'd absolutely agree with you. The Blackjack had slightly higher dps, even after factoring in the massive boost the MGs get once armor is gone. (I'm assuming an equal scenario of both having to saw thru the same component from full health.)

But I feel your missing one the key points of what I was saying, which is that MWO is not static or "on paper", and that how a payload is delivered is a Massive portion of how effective it is. Thus why I gave you the previous Hypothetical of PIR "scaled up" to account for being on a Blackjack and the difference in how those 2 mechs would get to deliver it, to let you ponder if that probably would have worked better with the PIRs loudout scaled to account for BJs 3x bigger size, 2.25x tonnage, slower speed, etc.

To throw out another semi Hypothetical to this point. Let's reference the old pre-nerf ASN-21. A nice simple loudout of X4 SRM4s was common on them, and it was such a good way to deliver em that it got the thing nerfed. Now is X4 SRM4s that op? By itself..... Not really, I mean if you were Hypothetically able to mount such to a STD60 Urbie, do ya think it'd been anywhere near as destructive as the assassin? Probably not, it'd be a terrible way to deliver that payload.

Now to the other half of my point, the scaling up to account for being a bigger slower target which means you have much lower chances of getting into engagement range unimpeded and are far far more likely to take enemy fire, and it's more likely to "accurate" enemy fire since bigger hit boxes. Meaning ya have to work faster. It's the whole concept of how assaults work. There bigger, slower targets that make up for it with more armor (which assuming ya already had on the BJ) and better Firepower (more of it, with better ranges, etc).

Thus my point still remains of it not being a fair comparison. If you wanted compare MGs performance using those 2 mechs, ya'd need to scale up the payload to the BJ to account for all that, thus the previous Hypothetical, which I'm still betting it would have gone a LOT better for ya (I'm assuming you could make the absolute best of both your original and my Hypothetical loudout for the sake of this post)

Edited by TechChris, 19 March 2018 - 02:29 AM.

[Sniper09121986]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 19 March 2018 - 01:55 AM, said:

My main gripe with piranhas is that when those 12MGs start shooting at my front, my FPS go so low, I have trouble aiming. 8MGs are OKish, 12 do not.

Try to set particles to a lower setting or play with other graphic options that require more effort for GPU to draw them than for a player to see the difference.

[Sjorpha]

Kaeb Odellas, on 18 March 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

Where are you getting your numbers for Piranha performance?

I know this is anecdotal evidence and all, but from my experience if a PIR-1 doesn't just go full-on potato within the first minute of the game, or get unlucky with a streak-boat, it's going to really mess some dudes up.

And expecting massive damage numbers from the Piranha is unreasonable, given its primary armament has a pretty hard limit on damage since it can't carry a lot of ammo. The classic quad C-UAC10 Kodiak, on the other hand, has enough ammo to drill through an entire company's worth of front CTs.

And damage isn't the whole story. The way it instantly vaporizes any equipment in an exposed section isn't reflected in its damage stats.

The point is that the Piranha hasn't made that big of an impact. It's not dominating the light queue in solo. It's not showing extraordinary peak performance compared to other mechs, not even compared to other "good" lights despite lights being underpowered in general. It's not part of any oppressive strategies in group or FP. There is simply not much so far to base a claim of overpoweredness on, the impact you would expect from something actally overpowered just isn't there.

It's an annoying mech to be killed by, it's annoying to have weapons stripped without dying. That's what the complaints are really about i believe, not actual power.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 March 2018 - 03:02 AM.

[Bombast]

Sjorpha, on 19 March 2018 - 02:58 AM, said:

It's an annoying mech to be killed by, it's annoying to have weapons stripped without dying. That's what the complaints are really about i believe, not actual power.

This really is it. Machine Guns just feel so bad to get hit by. Really colors people's perceptions.

[Imperius]

Sjorpha, on 19 March 2018 - 02:58 AM, said:

The point is that the Piranha hasn't made that big of an impact. It's not dominating the light queue in solo. It's not showing extraordinary peak performance compared to other mechs, not even compared to other "good" lights despite lights being underpowered in general. It's not part of any oppressive strategies in group or FP. There is simply not much so far to base a claim of overpoweredness on, the impact you would expect from something actally overpowered just isn't there.

It's an annoying mech to be killed by, it's annoying to have weapons stripped without dying. That's what the complaints are really about i believe, not actual power.

Where is your stats and hard facts that back up this claim?

[The GaussFather]

Zergling, on 19 March 2018 - 12:16 AM, said:

Oh, I know the Piranha is a lot harder to hit than a Blackjack, but when it is hit, it will go down fast. My point was that in a DPS contest where both mechs are being hit, a Piranha will die much sooner than it will 'buzzsaw' through an enemy mech. I mean, if a Piranha is winning a DPS contest, then the other mech simply isn't aiming well enough. I normally play on the NA server with a 250ms ping, and despite not being a great shot I do not have an unusual amount of trouble hitting Piranha or other light mechs. I also don't have problems with non-laser weapons. Eg, I had a Locust circling my King Crab yesterday, and I managed to blap it in the chest with a double tap from my UAC20. Instant solo kill. You are describing bad hit registration, which appears to be a server side problem. I don't know what causes it, but I don't feel light mechs are more effected by it than other mechs; I recall a bunch of times I've nailed heavier mechs with PPC shots to no effect, or I've launched multiple 4-6x SRM6 salvos at close range that barely scratch the paint. Bad hit registration seems to be fairly rare now though, it's been a long time since I last noticed it (although to be honest, that might be because I don't play as much as I used to do).

Well I seem to be fighting on the forums more than in the game these days... that's not a good trend! lol

Hitreg is certainly one issue and its hard to know when its occurring against a light mech because they are moving much faster. So it could be your aim/timing is off because of lag/poor GPU performance, or poor markmanship. Or all of the above... its not easy to know sometimes.

Trying to be as objective as possible, I think the PIR-1 is creating so much "outrage/emnity" because it compounds/combines several issues in the game that individually are not impacting play that much:

1) High top speed & nimble, small target vs lag and hitreg problems
2) Clan tech giving it better survive-ability and performance, legging is best chance at killing it
3) Small and nimble so able to leg hug/crotch slam to avoid being seen and hit by tall mech pilots
4) Insane DPS & Crit time up close w 12MGs with zero heat and great ability to get close and remain unseen/hard to target

Maybe I left something out but this is what we are experiencing when you go up against this design. In table-top "on paper" the PIR-1 would not have near the success/kill rate they get in this game.

And I still think its silly my 100 ton "futuristic" Atlas with all its sensors and hi-tech gear suddenly "loses track" and can't fire back at a small enemy because it got "too close" to it and leg humps it. Really? No one thought to put a camera down there or a sensor for fire control?? I can't stomp it or walk past it? That just kills the whole "suspension of disbelief" that we employ when we play this fantasy future game.

Edited by The GaussFather, 19 March 2018 - 09:06 AM.

[Mystere]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Where is your stats and hard facts that back up this claim?

Based on online gaming generally being a "monkey see, monkey do" environment, the fact that the queues are not being flooded by the Piranha is a good indication of the validity of what Sjorpha is saying.

[VXJaeger]

Mount StreakCrow and enjoy terror among Piranhas.

[Mystere]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Weird you haven't been playing. 19 games last season, no games this season, and who knows the last time you played before last season.

Fun how not having "stats" just discredits everyones opinions even if they're right or wrong.

What relevance do "stats" have with regard to a generally-held observation about online gaming?

[Imperius]

Mystere, on 19 March 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

What relevance do "stats" have with regard to a generally-held observation about online gaming?

I was telling the person who asked me to provide stats on my opinion of how 12MG is overpowered. To provide those stats for his.

You for some reason responded to a post that wasn't even directed at you.

Yet, I would say you would have to actually play to form the observation you made.

[Brain Cancer]

Mystere, on 19 March 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Based on online gaming generally being a "monkey see, monkey do" environment, the fact that the queues are not being flooded by the Piranha is a good indication of the validity of what Sjorpha is saying.

We had the flood when the PIR was released, and it's relative length compared to other releases was a good sign of a solid chassis (for all that it explodes when you hit it). It's a good light. It's not a gamebreaker light. I do think we won't stop seeing them, and they'll be a popular choice when the chassis moves to MC (lights are cheap in terms of MC cost) and C-bills.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Imperius, on 19 March 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yet, I would say you would have to actually play to form the observation you made.

And you're back to being the usual hypocrite ... ~laughs~
Weren't your initial comments made purely from "feely craft" point of view? With no actual game experience since like "forever"? And now that you've made like 20(?) games you're trying to call out others on not having made own experiences?

Oh you certainly don't pass on any chance to provide me with entertainment.

[Imperius]

Der Geisterbaer, on 19 March 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

And you're back to being the usual hypocrite ... ~laughs~
Weren't your initial comments made purely from "feely craft" point of view? With no actual game experience since like "forever"? And now that you've made like 20(?) games you're trying to call out others on not having made own experiences?

Oh you certainly don't pass on any chance to provide me with entertainment.

Look here comes the guy that doesn't read the conversation and tries to put words in peoples mouths.

Now what are you going to say I said?

Like a get bro you don't want your crutch balanced.

Make sure you quote and read the whole thing next time.

Edited by Imperius, 19 March 2018 - 12:01 PM.

[STBlitzkrieg]

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

Cheese takes a lot more processing. It's not just 'rotten milk' as some people think. First you need to add some rennet (an enzyme found in calf stomaches, used here to break down the milk) separate the whey, drain the sugar from the milk curd via osmosis and a stable temperature, make sure you don't eat any fermented food before you process it as you could spoil the batch, then press it into a wheel of cheese several times at varying pressures, then age it for months, brush the mold off a few times a week etc.

What an epic and shameless bit of plagarism.

https://www.reddit.c...n_spoiled_milk/

Imperius, on 16 March 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

Cool you learned something today!

Cool, you learned that Googling the post content of someone whom you suspect of having too few braincells to actually articulate worth a damn can reveal a goldmine.

For the curious, it's the third post from the top.

*Tips MG filled tophat*