718 replies to this topic

[Catra Lanis]

Mystere, on 02 March 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

It's not bad game design in as much as Mech collision was removed due to certain "incidents" that were a result of its bad implementation.

The solution is to bring back a better implementation of collisions. But in the meantime, better teamwork is the only solution.

You don't have to have something fancy, just a simple increase of damage would be enough of a deterrent.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 02 March 2018 - 01:31 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Bombast, on 02 March 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

You've yet to demonstrate it is bad game design, actually.

exactly.

the hallmark of good game design is based on "scissors, paper, stone" but with varying rewards and the associated risk. e.g. winning with paper gives you the most points, but your opponent will start throwing scissors more in response.

that's the most balanced gameplay possible.

in mwo, fat assaults get countered by small, fast lights. stone, meet paper.

op, just because you like stones and think stone should smash everything doesn't mean that that should be the case. if mwo was like tt, everyone would be spraying shots all over the place like drunkards and bringing the highest BV mech they can. that means clan assaults. do you REALLY want to go the "muh lore" route and have clan mechs so overpowered they can stumble through a star of IS mechs and still win?

Edited by Wil McCullough, 02 March 2018 - 02:09 PM.

[The GaussFather]

Ok going to hopefully put a stop to the forum mud-slinging (What? You say that's impossible? OK, it probably is but I'm gonna try.)

Bad game design "proof":

1) While I'm in my "Big Robot" I can't see my feet or bend enough at the waist to look down.
2) "Little Robot" sneaks/runs up to big robot and proceeds to wipe it out as "big robot" looks around and wonders, WTF is happening? (Humor me don't quote that and start saying I'm clueless, sucky player etc.)
3) Big Robot moves, Little Robot leghumps and Big Robot is destroyed. Game over for Big Robot.

Somehow the above situation doesn't follow tabletop rules or common sense. Its a bad mechanic, bad design, exploit, whatever you want to call it. I'm not the only one who has pointed it out (and probably won't be the last).

Constructive Ideas for Easy Fixes for this Problem (in order of difficulty):

1) Increase damage received by running into an enemy mech by a factor related to the difference in mass. So Little Robot runs into Big Robots leg and goes "bonk": Big Robot takes little damage. Little Robot takes a lot.

2) Allow the Assaults (and all the robots as far as I'm concerned) enough torso movement so pilots can see their feet/toes. Would that somehow REALLY wreck the game? I don't think so and it should have been considered much earlier on.

3) Allow real melee attacks! Whoop! Just make it automated so that when you push the melee attack key/button the limb closest to the enemy hits it for damage (and some mutual damage too). OK - I'm dreaming here that PGI could ever implement something that alot of other game companies could pull off from the very beginning but its good to dream.

So let the haters attack!

[Y E O N N E]

4.) Equip arm weapons

[The GaussFather]

Wil McCullough, on 02 March 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

exactly.

the hallmark of good game design is based on "scissors, paper, stone" but with varying rewards and the associated risk. e.g. winning with paper gives you the most points, but your opponent will start throwing scissors more in response.

that's the most balanced gameplay possible.

in mwo, fat assaults get countered by small, fast lights. stone, meet paper.

op, just because you like stones and think stone should smash everything doesn't mean that that should be the case. if mwo was like tt, everyone would be spraying shots all over the place like drunkards and bringing the highest BV mech they can. that means clan assaults. do you REALLY want to go the "muh lore" route and have clan mechs so overpowered they can stumble through a star of IS mechs and still win?

I think the criticism is off target. I said in the OP I don't mind a good light pilot outplaying and killing an assault. Backstabbing, circle of death, etc. are all legitimate ways to do that.

The current leghumping tactic that piranhas are especially good at shouldn't be allowed to happen by the game mechanics/design.

So I'm all good with "rock, paper, scissors" and lights killing assaults especially when lights hunt in packs. A 100 ton sloth should fear a pack of 20 ton coyotes. But 100 ton assault shouldn't fear a single 20 ton mech with just machine guns... kinda silly in my view. Unless said assault is already considerably damaged. As it is, the with the DPS a piranha can put out it can shred the armor and start critting before most pilots can put it down.

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

4.) Equip arm weapons

I think its an oversimplification... its hard to hit what you can't see or target well... see point 2. You wind up shooting mostly blind and hoping that you hit the target.

Edited by The GaussFather, 02 March 2018 - 03:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

I think its an oversimplification... its hard to hit what you can't see or target well... see point 2. You wind up shooting mostly blind and hoping that you hit the target.

If he's so close that you can't see him, you already know how far your arms need to be depressed. And even then, you see the head bob in and out of view, so you know where he is laterally.

While you may still lose the fight, because arm weapons tend to be your secondary battery on most of the good Assaults (especially IS ones), you can make the Light pay dearly for it.

Otherwise, bring torso guns only to be really good at taking out big 'Mechs? Being **** against small 'Mechs is the trade-off.

[Mystere]

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

1) While I'm in my "Big Robot" I can't see my feet or bend enough at the waist to look down.

Do modern-day tanks have full 360-degree view of their surroundings?

Are they able to see that daring member of the "opposing force" that just climbed on top of their vehicle and attached an IED?

poltergoost, on 02 March 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

This. The issue isn't that the Piranha can leg-hump assaults at close range.

The issue is that a 20-ton mech can also out-DPS assaults at close range

Really?

See below:

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

1) While I'm in my "Big Robot" I can't see my feet or bend enough at the waist to look down.
2) "Little Robot" sneaks/runs up to big robot and proceeds to wipe it out as "big robot" looks around and wonders, WTF is happening? (Humor me don't quote that and start saying I'm clueless, sucky player etc.)
3) Big Robot moves, Little Robot leghumps and Big Robot is destroyed. Game over for Big Robot.

Somehow the above situation doesn't follow tabletop rules or common sense. Its a bad mechanic, bad design, exploit, whatever you want to call it. I'm not the only one who has pointed it out (and probably won't be the last).

[Bombast]

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

So let the haters attack!

This is the least helpful attitude to have, and it begs the question why we should even bother discussing this with you. You've already decided your right, and worse, that anyone who disagrees with you is 'a hater.' For someone so disgusted by the attitude of others, yours is abysmal.

Please let it go and actually consider what people are going to say.

EDIT: Sorry people, this response was longer than I anticipated, and probably longer than it needed to be.

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

Bad game design "proof":

1) While I'm in my "Big Robot" I can't see my feet or bend enough at the waist to look down.

This is one of the trade offs assault mechs make for having absurd amounts of firepower - It's difficult to bring to bear in some situations. While there's some particular mechs that may need to have their torso/arm movement profiles looked at, for the most part it's a solid game mechanic.

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2) "Little Robot" sneaks/runs up to big robot and proceeds to wipe it out as "big robot" looks around and wonders, WTF is happening? (Humor me don't quote that and start saying I'm clueless, sucky player etc.)

You know what's happening though. You're being attacked. Whether it's from a light or another assault, the answer is basically the same - Twist to absorb damage, move to be in either a superior offensive or defensive position.

While its true new players are often flabbergasted when lights descend on them, that doesn't mean it's a bad mechanic, just one that requires a bit of experience.

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3) Big Robot moves, Little Robot leghumps and Big Robot is destroyed. Game over for Big Robot.

And if little robot comes around a corner when big robot is looking in that direction, it dies. Game over for little robot. This scenario is far more common than leg humping, and yet you aren't campaigning about LB-60X builds or HGR Cyclops.

The fact a small mech can take advantage of a large mechs mobility and torso movement is no more a bad mechanic than a big mech being able to take advantage of a small mechs lack of armor.

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Somehow the above situation doesn't follow tabletop rules or common sense. Its a bad mechanic, bad design, exploit, whatever you want to call it. I'm not the only one who has pointed it out (and probably won't be the last).

This is not a TT game.

Quote

Constructive Ideas for Easy Fixes for this Problem (in order of difficulty):

1) Increase damage received by running into an enemy mech by a factor related to the difference in mass. So Little Robot runs into Big Robots leg and goes "bonk": Big Robot takes little damage. Little Robot takes a lot.

Unnecessary, and the largest impact such a change would have would be lots, and I mean lots, more TKing.

Quote

2) Allow the Assaults (and all the robots as far as I'm concerned) enough torso movement so pilots can see their feet/toes. Would that somehow REALLY wreck the game? I don't think so and it should have been considered much earlier on.

As far as I know, no mech can actually see it's toes. This change would give assaults the best torso movement in the game. Unnecessary and nonsensical.

Quote

3) Allow real melee attacks! Whoop! Just make it automated so that when you push the melee attack key/button the limb closest to the enemy hits it for damage (and some mutual damage too). OK - I'm dreaming here that PGI could ever implement something that alot of other game companies could pull off from the very beginning but its good to dream.

Melee gets discussed here a lot. Its complicated enough to need its own topic, but the shot of it is that the inclusion of melee brings about more problems than solutions.

Edited by Bombast, 02 March 2018 - 03:17 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

The GaussFather, on 28 February 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

So you are in your assault mech... and suddenly you hear a million (?) machine gun rounds hitting your back, you turn to shoot the attacker and can't see it because its hugging your leg because of PGIs flawed view from the cockpit and/or scaling.

So you move, and the Piranha or similar light (though Piranha is SO much more lethal for its size) moves up again so you can't see it and being faster it can almost always win.

Piranhas exploit a bad game design and in the few matches I was playing last night they had the majority of the kills. They are like a little buzz saw and aptly named.

Between the leg hugging, lag, and bad hit reg we are experiencing its damn hard to shoot them if they are moving even with lasers. Its like they have 3x the armor for their weight class.

On the hit reg... several times I'm shooting with Gauss rifles and they PASS THROUGH THE TARGET without a hit! No red reticle... OMG how can hit reg be getting worse as the game evolves??

So I'm thinking the QP game is not fun anymore unless you are light pilot... I gave up on FP a long time ago... couldn't stand waiting so long for a match and then get stomped by competitive teams of meta builds.

I know many people will say I'm whining but I basically grew up on MW games -- played all of them included Crescent Hawks Revenge on my Apple IIc.

I'm cool with a good light pilot being able to take down an Atlas -- but not by using all the exploits that this game is turned into where lights with machine guns are now the killer meta. Its killed the fun of piloting a "mighty robot" into battle with 30th Century "futuristic weapons" when you have to fear the 20 ton killing machines with weapons from the 20th century!

1 on 1 you might have a chance if they don't leg hug and backstab, if its 2 lights on 1 assault forget it. Game over.

Anyone else tired of the rinse and repeat Piranha attacks going on in QP? Or am I just a grumpy old guy who likes a fair game and enjoys piloting big robots with futuristic weapons?

Real solution: Bring back knock down.

[Dimento Graven]

Bombast, on 02 March 2018 - 03:14 PM, said:

...

And if little robot comes around a corner when big robot is looking in that direction, and there aren't significant ping differences, and the server is not feeling overwhelmed at the moment, and you just happen to have loaded, recharged weapons, and HSR doesn't just go randomly apeshit, it MIGHT die.

FTFY... Even then, clocking any light 'mech full on with dual gauss, generally gets me that supposed 'insta kill' about 15% of the time...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 02 March 2018 - 03:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Lights have Streaks as a hard-counter to them. Only two Lights can charge down streaks and shrug it off like it's no big deal, and neither of them are of the ankle-biting variety.

As long as that hard counter exists. I do not find it offensive that Assaults have a similar hard counter.

[PocketYoda]

Did a faction war yesterday and towards the end the Clan team all dropped in Piranhas, Cheetas (with MGs) and Lynx Gs whole team tore us to shreds, the heavies didn't stand a chance and the IS lights were obliterated..

It was like ******* Star wars Death star scene, they are so abusing this.

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

Lights have Streaks as a hard-counter to them. Only two Lights can charge down streaks and shrug it off like it's no big deal, and neither of them are of the ankle-biting variety.

As long as that hard counter exists. I do not find it offensive that Assaults have a similar hard counter.

There isn't enough mechs with that many missiles to counter that many MGs the clanners can boat.. and streaks lock on takes longer than you're alive not to mention ECM..

Edited by Samial, 02 March 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 02 March 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

There isn't enough mechs with that many missiles to counter that many MGs the clanners can boat.. and streaks lock on takes longer than you're alive not to mention ECM..

There are plenty of missile tubes on Huntsmen, Stormcrows, Archers, Bushwackers, Kintaros, even goddamn Battlemasters.

And you don't need more than a pair of SSRM6 to convince a 20 tonner to go away.

Piranhas don't have ECM. Mist Lynxes with 6+ MGs don't have ECM. Only Cheetahs have ECM, but they aren't small enough to ankle bite.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Samial, on 02 March 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

There isn't enough mechs with that many missiles to counter that many MGs the clanners can boat.. and streaks lock on takes longer than you're alive not to mention ECM..

That's because if you go streaks you need to be serious about it. Tag, BAP, mandatory JJs, and stuff. You cant throw two ssrms on your mech of the line and hope they do you any good.

[PocketYoda]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

There are plenty of missile tubes on Huntsmen, Stormcrows, Archers, Bushwackers, Kintaros, even goddamn Battlemasters.

And you don't need more than a pair of SSRM6 to convince a 20 tonner to go away.

Piranhas don't have ECM. Mist Lynxes with 6+ MGs don't have ECM. Only Cheetahs have ECM, but they aren't small enough to ankle bite.

Huntsmen and Stormcrows are clan, and the rest are far too slow to contend with multiple lights.. let alone 12

Myst lynxs have 8 mgs

Nema Nabojiv, on 02 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

That's because if you go streaks you need to be serious about it. Tag, BAP, mandatory JJs, and stuff. You cant throw two ssrms on your mech of the line and hope they do you any good.

A lot of IS mechs can't even fit all that because of tonnage and slot restrictions unlike Clanners can..

Edited by Samial, 02 March 2018 - 05:42 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 02 March 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

Huntsmen and Stormcrows are clan, and the rest are far too slow to contend with multiple lights.. let alone 12

QP doesn't care what side is what, the rest slow doesn't matter because they are coming to you.

Quote

Myst lynxs have 8 mgs

Some do. Some don't. The point is that if you want to run more than 4x MGs then you can't have ECM because the ECM arm has zero weapons on it.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

Ok going to hopefully put a stop to the forum mud-slinging (What? You say that's impossible? OK, it probably is but I'm gonna try.)

Bad game design "proof":

1) While I'm in my "Big Robot" I can't see my feet or bend enough at the waist to look down.
2) "Little Robot" sneaks/runs up to big robot and proceeds to wipe it out as "big robot" looks around and wonders, WTF is happening? (Humor me don't quote that and start saying I'm clueless, sucky player etc.)
3) Big Robot moves, Little Robot leghumps and Big Robot is destroyed. Game over for Big Robot.

Somehow the above situation doesn't follow tabletop rules or common sense. Its a bad mechanic, bad design, exploit, whatever you want to call it. I'm not the only one who has pointed it out (and probably won't be the last).

Constructive Ideas for Easy Fixes for this Problem (in order of difficulty):

1) Increase damage received by running into an enemy mech by a factor related to the difference in mass. So Little Robot runs into Big Robots leg and goes "bonk": Big Robot takes little damage. Little Robot takes a lot.

2) Allow the Assaults (and all the robots as far as I'm concerned) enough torso movement so pilots can see their feet/toes. Would that somehow REALLY wreck the game? I don't think so and it should have been considered much earlier on.

3) Allow real melee attacks! Whoop! Just make it automated so that when you push the melee attack key/button the limb closest to the enemy hits it for damage (and some mutual damage too). OK - I'm dreaming here that PGI could ever implement something that alot of other game companies could pull off from the very beginning but its good to dream.

So let the haters attack!

Assaults the Aircraft Carrier and BS in this Games ...helpless without Support fleet.

Quote

Somehow the above situation doesn't follow tabletop rules or common sense. Its a bad mechanic, bad design, exploit, whatever you want to call it. I'm not the only one who has pointed it out (and probably won't be the last).

In the "Bad" TT rules a Mech can not hold his Armweapons in the enemy Cockpit from a Shut Down Mech ...stand 30m away and hits by the 12 m Target thats half filled his Cockpitview the right Feet and the left Torso ..in the Next round the same Pliot hits with Dice Luck all Luck Shot in the cockpit a Sparrow Aerospacefighter thats come with 100m/h from Above

Light not warped behind my mech ...shes seeing by tactical Awarness and without Tunnelview only for Targets in 1000m and by not only fight in Zoom View...Use the mKI Eyeball Sensors and thats of the Fullscreen +Corners

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 02 March 2018 - 06:37 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

When you lost the Match in Assaults, not play Assaults or go to Megamech and play Assault with TT Rules ...all my Assaults (most from Mechpacks and as Gifts) rotten in the Hangar ...whats happens

Quote

Pretty cool, this thread is really diverging into things I didn't expect. It seems like all the Tier 1 players are also Tier 1 Forum posters! (Are you all crypto millionaires without a job or family? Or maybe just teenagers?)

and im not T1 ..have a Fulltime Job and aged 53 ...only now T3 ...to less time for playing (ok 10 Years League Experience in MW4Mercs)...oh yes the World is not a Ponystable ...never understand thatsyou will win and dominates all in you Fatty big Robot ...play against AI in mW5 .teh Experience is learning ...and learning is harsh ...thats a game against other People that like you will have fun like you ..you will not learn play other Games ..here not a Autowin Button and more fair as in Battlestar Galactica Online with Dreally deadzones who you can make nothing against fighters in the neck with a Escort Ship.

And Using metamechs is not Autowin ...most Metas only good with experience and with a Good Team by Groupfight .

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 02 March 2018 - 06:52 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

QP doesn't care what side is what, the rest slow doesn't matter because they are coming to you.



Some do. Some don't. The point is that if you want to run more than 4x MGs then you can't have ECM because the ECM arm has zero weapons on it.

It happened in Faction war as i said in my first post...

And the only one they use does..

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

I hear you Samial!

But wait, shouldn't your teammates how watched your back and shot the light, or maybe you were just totally out of position, or maybe you should have put your butt against a wall when they swarmed?

You totally experienced what I was talking about just even worse... but no, most of these armchair pilots are going to tell you its your fault, don't worry.


Caption: "But wait, you poked holes in my statistical analysis... and and... how could he?"

We didn't stand a chance when they hit 12 at a time, their last two drop decks were completely Piranhas Myst lynxs Gs and Arctic cheetas with MGs

Yes our team had a few Assassins and lights by then but they were completely out matched dps and speed and their tiny size made hitting them hard as (it was on Crimson straight)

Edited by Samial, 02 March 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[Mystere]

The GaussFather, on 02 March 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

No my original complaint about Piranhas boating MGs stands, I just thought you guys would like the "Lights are OP" part - but apparently no one got the joke. You guys need to "lighten" up a bit... (that's also a pun - let me explain it -- no really I think I must...)

You admitted to trolling. That's proof enough.

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2018 - 06:45 PM.