Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
It's a fact that 8v8 will change how you can play on almost any map. It WILL require less ammo for ammo-based builds which causes a re-evaluation of all ammo-based builds. You say it's 100% speculation, then IMMEDIATELY state that builds won't change much. So which is it? builds will or will not change? Tactics WILL change as well. It doesn't matter the degree. The degree is not measurable, but that doesn't mean it's pure speculation that these things will change. Any degree of change is what matters because that allows players to re-think their builds and strategies. If you don't agree, I'm going to be very blunt and say that you simply don't care about that aspect of the game. If you do, then you have no excuse for not realizing this fact.
If it is not measurable then it doesn't make a difference. Minor changes are not going to shake things up like most of the proponents think. I may prefer 12v12, but I don't really care if 8v8 happens. My problem is with all of the assumptions the 8v8 crowd are insisting are 100% fact. Much of it is subjective.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
Now you're being dramatic. I'm not lying. Most people will be happy because of all the benefits 8v8 would bring across the board. Mech the Dane put it very simply on reddit, so i'll quote him here:
Benefits "they think" will be brought across the board. I'm also not being dramatic. Its simply human nature to be happy when you get what you want. It isn't because of "the greater good" for either side. As for Dane I like him, but he isn't immune from bias or poor logic anymore than anyone else.
The
Fix Match Maker crowd should be happy, as it would tighten problems up with that some. (
It also might make things worse or more likely do nothing to remedy stomps which is what the MM people are usually complaining about)
The
Waiting Forever For Drops crowd should be happy, as it reduces wait times. (
Fair enough. It will more than likely help during limited times of day and regions.)
The
Why Can't this Game be Fun Again crowd should be happy, as it increases a single pilot's contributions to the fight; making them more heroic.(
Fun is subjective. The why can't this game be fun again crowd are not all going to be in agreement on what makes it fun again.)
The
Let's Increase Time To Kill Because I Die Too Fast crowd should be happy, as you will live longer now.(
This is speculation, and something I disagree will change or change enough to make a difference.)
The
WHAT ABOUT CW crowd should even be happy because it makes 12v12 a CW unique environment, making people who want to drop 12 people have to use that game mode.(
It might make the CW crowd happy, but it also might make the 12v12 crowd unhappy having to play CW when they don't want too in order to play 12v12.)
****'s a slam-dunk.(
Sure, if you look at it from one point of view and not another, and when you look at it from another perspective it is far from a slam-dunk.)
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
Every person here that claims 12v12 is better than 8v8 has not addressed these points and put up a good argument for why 12v12 benefits the game more than 8v8 would. So yes, "paragons of virtue" might be fitting. It takes an unbias mindset to judge the advantages and disadvantages and see that one is clearly better overall than the other.
The 8v8 people haven't addressed those either as much as they like to think they have. The fact you believe anyone having this discussion is coming from an unbiased mindset is pretty laughable.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
But it will change. Again you're admitting that it would change, but you seem to think there is a measurement that says it's a negligible change. The fact is, less mechs potentially in a firing line to focus a mech in the open, the longer that mech in the open will live. Worst case, 8 players are shooting 1 player. That's potentially 1/3 less firepower than 12 players shooting 1 player. Simple math. In reality, yes, the TTK probably won't change a lot because it's more about the situations you end up in. You're not going to last very long against 8 mechs. But that's not what happens in matches. You don't expose yourself to the entire enemy team. In 8v8 you will see less mechs in a firing line in any situation. Instead of 4 mechs on a corner you might have 2-3 mechs on that corner. Death ball will still be a thing like always, but everything is toned down with the reduction in mechs.
It won't change enough to matter. I also already addressed the failed logic of there being potentially 1/3 less fire coming at you meaning longer TTK. People bringing that up always forget there is a 1/3 less potential targets to draw fire from you as well. It is all a wash in the end. 2-3 mechs shooting you or 4 when you round the corner ultimately ends the same way. The amount of focus fire is going to be mostly the same because while there are less mechs shooting there are also less to be shot at.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
Good players already carry games dramatically. You see a guy carry as hard as he can, dealing 1k+ damage with several kills, but it can't make up for a full lance of sub-100 damage assault mechs. What could potentially change in 8v8 is that those potatoes are in A DIFFERENT MATCH. 8v8 would alleviate some of the constraint on matchmaker trying to find an adequately balanced match. Also, in-line with Mech The Dane's point regarding players feeling more Heroic. Wouldn't it be better if a single player does extremely well that that player have a good chance of winning? I don't know why that is considered a negative here. It's like you're asking for good players to not be able to win because they are good? What's the point?
I agree they already carry games dramatically which is why I don't think putting further power in their hands by going down to 8v8 is a good idea. As for the last part we just established that the good players already carry games in 12v12 which means them doing extremely well already means they have a good chance of winning. That being said a single player doing well in a team game shouldn't be the primary determination of which team wins. It should be about which team works together better than the other.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:
That was also MANY years ago with an entirely different matchmaking system. The mechs are completely different with a whole array of new weapons. There is practically no comparison to be made between 8v8 in the current game to what it used to be. We're not looking through ANY rose-tinted ANYTHING. Because we're not considering poor comparisons.
It being so many years ago and how different things were was my point. A lot of people advocating for 8v8 talk about how great things were back then with 8v8 and how it will fix all our problems. Perhaps you are not one of those, but there are a lot that are.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
1v1 is fast because your only goal is to kill your ONE opponent. It's a very bad comparison when discussing TTK. Regualar matches involve teamwork, maneuvering through terrain, Intel gathering, and strategy on a whole different level that you won't see in 1v1. Don't point it out if you haven't thought it through. It's a terrible comparison.
I'm not comparing it directly just using it to illustrate a point. That being said even in a team environment our goal the vast majority of the time is to kill our opponent as quickly as possible. TTK is short in this game and changing the number of players as was talked about above will have little if any impact.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
DUH, so why is this a point? Can't design the game around poor decisions.
That is actually my point, and why switching to 8v8 or staying 12v12 is meaningless. Going 8v8 isn't going to be a cure all for the games problems. People are still going to complain about stomps, the match maker, and everything else people complain about.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
But... a solo player already impacts a game by a large margin... again, what's the point? This argument is like someone proposing a good player should be disadvantaged by attaching a lance of potatoes to his feet with a ball-and-chain. oh wait.
We already went over this. Yes, a solo player already impacts a game by a large margin, but they shouldn't be the primary or only thing that decides the outcome. This is a team game not a solo game and we should be winning and losing around the team not the individual.
Solahma, on 08 March 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:
It's only a theory anyway. I'd love to see how it would actually turn out instead of bullshitting around what could/would/should be and simply see what IS.
Now you are catching on. There is very little fact about what will and won't change by going to 8v8 like you indicated in your original post I responded too. Ultimately I don't care if we switch or don't switch, but I want to make sure expectations are as tempered as possible so people are not overly disappointed when switching to 8v8 doesn't cure cancer.
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