90 replies to this topic

[Alreech]

The reason 12 vs 12 is a chaotic mess is simple:
You have 3 lances, each of them is running their own tactic – in most cases “stick with the green blips on the radar”. So 2/3 of the team is doing their own thing… If you are lucky those 2 other lances stick with the team, if you are unlucky they spread over the whole map and you fight a short 4 vs 8, 8 vs 12 or even a 4 vs 12...
Even if the three lances stick together it's a mess because walking paths and firing lines are blocked by friendly mechs...

MWO has a Company Commander who can use the Battlegrid to set orders, but no one bothers to take the Company Commander role, and even if one take it most players won’t follow orders.
It’s also almost impossible to fight as Mechpilot and act as Company Commander. At least for 12 vs 12 a 13^th player as Commander on each side would be useful… don't even think of 16 vs 16 or 32 vs 32 without an dedicated Commander.
If PGI reduces the player size to 8 vs 8 it gets marginally better, but even in that case: if you are unlucky the other lance runs away and you fight a 4 vs 8… so making Solo Quickplay 8 vs 8 isn’t a really good solution.

IMHO a good but drastic solution: PGI should close down Solo Quickplay instead to make it 8 vs 8. Solo Players should play Solaris or should use the Looking for Group Function.
Also the Group Sizes should be fixed to 4 / 8 / 12 Players, to enforce the Players in Premade Groups and Units to invite players from the LFG. With only 3 group sizes instead of 10 matchmaking in Group Quickplay would be much easier and faster.
With easier matchmaking the matchmaker would be also able to consider the tier and tonnage of the groups, and even 4 vs 4 or 8 vs 8 could be set up easy if no 12 Player Group is available.

But I don’t think that PGI would make such a drastic change, and I don’t believe that many players would like that. Because most players just want quick matches without being forced to play as part of a team.

Edited by Alreech, 09 May 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[50 50]

live1991, on 30 April 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

They should move Group Q to 8v8 to start off with:)

Sure.
I don't believe it's a major coding issue to setup and we really only need to look at the functionality available in the private lobby to know it's certainly possible.

Why limit it though?
If the system is flexible enough to allow different team sizes we get several benefits from it.

• Wait times

Not only does it assist in reducing wait times when the population is a bit lower, keeping in mind that this may not be overall population but also simply because there are so many areas to queue up for a game now.


If the system allows a match to run as a 4v4 because there isn't enough for a larger team at that point in time then we can expect the result would be more matches.
If there is enough for 8v8, great.
Enough for 12v12, great.

• Variety of experience

We have seen from modes such as scouting and even things like MRBC how the experience changes according to the team sizes. Allowing different team sizes to form dynamically would reduce that sense of repetition and be a simple way to add more variety to both Quick Play and Faction Play. We have seen how quick play 12v12 does not really change from a skirmish mode, but what would a 4v4 Incursion match or Escort match be like?


What would 4v4 Siege be like?
What would it be like 8v8?
What would 4v4 skirmish with drop decks be like?

• Tighter match making for Quick Play

Smaller team sizes would hopefully mean getting matched up to players of an equal skill rating a bit more which would hopefully translate into more competitive and enjoyable battles for everyone. Stomps will still happen, but if you can get back into another game in a few seconds, it's easy to move on.



Note: Should matches allow for variable team sizes it should be based around the lances and this necessitates a change to group sizes.
Not team size,.
Groups.
This is for several reasons but looking ahead, limiting the group sizes does have some benefits, particularly around Faction Play.

• It means Scout mode can be incorporated into the quick play queues as an extra mode. Doesn't matter if it's not all lights and mediums, be fun to try it with an Assault.
  
• It also means that Scout mode can be merged into the Invasion queue which in turn may allow some interesting options to record Intel at the group level for different effects. ie. Group buffs for things like radar range, target locks etc.
  
• It's necessary so that a larger number of players are not left out of matches because there is not enough opponents within a reasonable time frame. Eg. If you form a group of 12 but there is only a group of 4 waiting as an opponent.
  
• For Faction Play it means we can look into making the groups all one faction. ie. No mixed groups.

That last point I want to elaborate on a bit.


Prior to the single front of Clan vs IS we were fighting for our individual factions. There was that sense of fighting for Ghost Bear against Davion, or Kurita or Smoke Jaguar etc etc.
We can get some of that back without splitting the queues by restricting the composition of groups to be from a single faction and putting a rule in the match maker that you cannot fight against your own faction.
IF the team size can fluctuate from 4, 8 or 12 players it's a win in terms of bringing back some of that faction identity.
It's also good to note that should a unit have enough players on to form a full team of 12 that even with a group restricted to a lance of 4, there is still that possibility of having a 12 v 12 conflict should there be another faction out there with enough groups to form a full company.
Add to that discussion how this might work for Loyalists vs Mercenaries and there could be some interesting options to look at.

Surely this is a good thing.

Not only can we get more matches faster, but we can increase the game modes available (scouting), diversify our game experience and develop new tactics and look into ways of improving the Factions.

Edited by 50 50, 09 May 2018 - 07:17 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

Alreech, on 09 May 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Solo Players should play Solaris or should use the Looking for Group Function.

1. I don't like Solaris, and if it was the only mode I could do solo, I would refund my preorders, and never play again. (PGI loses a LOT of money if they do this)
2. LFG can have you sitting around for hours during most of the day, and waiting for random teams to fully ready is a true PITA. (and all members have to ready in order to even queue for a match)
3. You didn't think this through very thoroughly.

[drugon]

Actually there are two reasons why I don't like 12 on 12 matches. First - it's a damn death ball. It's a usual tactics for most matches. Either you stuck with all or you dead in 90% of cases. 8 on 8 matches should make that death ball tactics not that effective I hope. Second - you'll be dead in a second in most cases if you'll get behind enemy death ball and shoot someone. Well eight mechs could kill you fast also but not that fast than twelve. I'd prefer to see more situations when mechs are split amongst all map but the game should change rules so it would happen (maybe set conquest limit to 500 or something like that). At least 8 on 8 wouldn't be such a mess.

[Boomer84]

Has 4v4 ever been put on the table? I mean a Lance vs Lance fight sounds very much a Battletech thing.

[Ch_R0me]

Took Mixed option, because I want to see less players on smaller maps and to decrease wait time in lobby. Simple.

[Ghoja]

Old thread, but given we just had an unannounced 8vs8 event, I think it's worth visiting.

Having QP mixed with both 12vs12 and 8vs8 would cause more than a few issues, but would have it's perks as well. Given there were no noticeable performance improvements (hit box registry, load or wait time reduction), at least on my end, I'd say the cons to having mixed QP outweigh the good, but would depend on how it's done. (Yes, depending on how you play, some of these lists could be muddled (cons/pros reversed). I'm listing based on combat options vs style of play.

Some of the most notable cons:

- Mech loadout for effectiveness is different in 8v8 than in 12v12. 8v8 lends itself to brawl builds that would otherwise be sniped or singled out quicker in 12v12. (This is both good and bad, some mechs that don't get used often can shine in 8v8)

-Sniping and general long range tactics are significantly less effective in 8v8 because you don't have enough people to spare for those roles (while maintaining combat effectiveness). (and some people just can't seem to adjust to the difference)

- Any AFK or DC player in 8v8 severely cuts team effectiveness in 8v8. (Still don't understand the AFK, if you hit QP button, you should be ready, wait times aren't THAT long)

Pros:

- Give a chance for some mechs that are more prone to long range attacks due to quirks being more brawl based to shine. (I.E. high dmg, low recycle, shorter range)

- Increases awareness of the "stick together" tactic, and awareness of the little things (more people actually shot down UAVs for a change)

Now, a great deal depends on how the modes are implemented.

One thing I thought was needed during this impromptu trial of 8v8 was the ability to choose your drop sites. I realize that would require a fair amount of programming to achieve, but would definitely improve the gameplay in both 12v12 and 8v8. Most players know exactly where the enemy is dropping right now, hence why there's the "left or right" question at the beginning of most matches, and almost all current tactics are based on the knowledge of where the spawn points are. Great example is the general flocking of lights and fast mediums to the cave drop site in Hibernal Rift. Having even 1 or 2 added choices for drop locations for each map with the ability to choose (or even randomizing) which are used would add variety to tactics and gameplay. This at least should be an option for 8v8, because there is already a site available not being used. (And that stupid cave drop site IS being used on Hibernal).

Personally, I like the 8v8 gameplay, got to dust off some mechs I haven't used in a while and the general lack of map edge snipers was nice. I did switch from lights/meds as my preferred mech to well armored mediums and heavier mechs (like I used to use before the massive quirk changes that made lights far more armored than they should be, i.e. no light should be even thinking that attacking more than 1 lone mech as a wise idea, whereas now they can get away with it and even excel at it)

Just my 2 cents, and really probably only worth 2 cents as an opinion.

[cazeral]

These "Polls" have little to no value considering the number of alt accounts or new accounts being generated since the "test" at the weekend.

However, keep running them if it gives you a nice warm feeling (bit like how you sort a wet suit out properly; go look it up)

[Corbantu]

Alreech, on 09 May 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

The reason 12 vs 12 is a chaotic mess is simple:
You have 3 lances, each of them is running their own tactic – in most cases “stick with the green blips on the radar”. So 2/3 of the team is doing their own thing… If you are lucky those 2 other lances stick with the team, if you are unlucky they spread over the whole map and you fight a short 4 vs 8, 8 vs 12 or even a 4 vs 12...
Even if the three lances stick together it's a mess because walking paths and firing lines are blocked by friendly mechs...

MWO has a Company Commander who can use the Battlegrid to set orders, but no one bothers to take the Company Commander role, and even if one take it most players won’t follow orders.
It’s also almost impossible to fight as Mechpilot and act as Company Commander. At least for 12 vs 12 a 13^th player as Commander on each side would be useful… don't even think of 16 vs 16 or 32 vs 32 without an dedicated Commander.
If PGI reduces the player size to 8 vs 8 it gets marginally better, but even in that case: if you are unlucky the other lance runs away and you fight a 4 vs 8… so making Solo Quickplay 8 vs 8 isn’t a really good solution.

IMHO a good but drastic solution: PGI should close down Solo Quickplay instead to make it 8 vs 8. Solo Players should play Solaris or should use the Looking for Group Function.
Also the Group Sizes should be fixed to 4 / 8 / 12 Players, to enforce the Players in Premade Groups and Units to invite players from the LFG. With only 3 group sizes instead of 10 matchmaking in Group Quickplay would be much easier and faster.
With easier matchmaking the matchmaker would be also able to consider the tier and tonnage of the groups, and even 4 vs 4 or 8 vs 8 could be set up easy if no 12 Player Group is available.

But I don’t think that PGI would make such a drastic change, and I don’t believe that many players would like that. Because most players just want quick matches without being forced to play as part of a team.

This is the most radical thing I've seen and agreed with in years. Fascinating

[M E X]

Depending on the SIZE of a map, I would prefer 8vs8 for smaller maps !

[Otsdarva24]

I feel like the major argument for 12v12 vs 8v8 is: "In 12v12, a single bad teammate is worth less than 10% of the team". I feel like we can immediately contrast this with the fact that it also means you, as a player, are just as worthless in the grand scheme of the fight.

I'm not saying this as a 'beta' veteran, I really got into MWO years after 8v8 was a thing, but just playing 8v8 for one weekend and really thinking about my experience, I didn't find 'bad players' to be a problem. In fact, I didn't even find loosing to be a problem.

Playing in 8v8, I felt like I could contribute to the fight no matter what mech I brought. In 12v12 it feels like you have to hang back and be cautious, but in 8v8 I found more opportunity to step up and take action without being punished for it. Each engagement was against managable odds, and even when I died or we lost the match, I can still remember most of the fights fondly. I got a lot more 'cool moments' out of it.

Regardless of whether or not you win or loose the match to a single bad player, I honestly don't care, and I don't think a lot of other people do either. What counts should be whether you enjoy the fight. I can enjoy a fight where I go down swinging. I can't enjoy a victory where I didn't even contribute.

Honestly though, after having played 8v8. I feel like I've seen what MWO could be. Now it's hard to keep playing. It just feels disappointing.

At the very least, I hope we get a choice.