478 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

As a result of claims by people that mechs in MWO are scaled by volume, due not least in part because PGI claims they scaled by volume, this post is intended to demonstrate that MWO mechs are not in fact scaled by volume. Unless claimed otherwise, volumetric scaling assume uniform density. Twice the mass, twice the volume. The rest is math, not opinion.

For the comparison, I'm using the 100 Ton atlas and 25 Ton Commando because they're proportionally very close.




Volumetric scaling between the two mechs means that the Commando should have 1/4th the volume of the Atlas. What does 1/4 the volume look like? Let's start with a simpler shape, a cube, and compare two cubes, one 1/4 the volume of the other.




Basically, if you take any object and shrink the length, width, and height to 63% of the original, you get 1/4 the volume of the original. This also applies to mechs. If this is hard to imagine, just think of a mech as being made of a lot of cubes. If the dimensions of all of those cubes are shrunk to 63%, the resulting mech is 1/4 the volume.

Now, let's start with PGI's Atlas, and shrink the dimensions down to 63%, getting a 25 Ton Atlas. How does its size compare to the Commando?




Then, in reverse, we can start with the 25 Ton commando and inflate the dimensions to 159% to get a 100 Ton Commando (math: 1.59^3=4.02). How does this compare to the Atlas?



And there you go... the scaling between mechs are too exaggerated, either the lights are too small or assaults are too large. In fact, 2^2 = 4 so current scaling is based on area, which means PGI is scaling by the front profile of the mech.






edit:
Two more comparisons (I did both directions in one image though, so don't compare the middle two)








Lastly, for the people saying uniform density is too big an assumption. Here's how big a difference. The waist and shoulders are still smaller on the 200 ton commando, despite a small height increase. What did PGI do? Replace all the armor on the Atlas with foam? Well, that'd probably be right given how squishy it is

Edited by Nightbird, 24 January 2020 - 11:21 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

That's actually pretty cool.

Annnnd now I want a mini-Atlas.

[N0ni]

Mini Atlas is so cute!

[Bombast]

I think it's pretty well understood that volumetric scaling is mostly a lie, and we're actually better off for it. As you've demonstrated, lights would really get boned in such a system.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 03 March 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

As you've demonstrated, lights would really get boned in such a system.

Only if the Lights scaled up instead of the Assaults scaling down.

Your laser beams, missiles, and projectiles are all still the same size.

[The6thMessenger]

I'm actually okay with smaller assaults.

[Hit the Deck]

3D print MWO's mechs, then dunk them in water one at a time, and finally compare their volumes.

The only way to test how accurate PGI's claim of volumetric scaling!



PS: You can send the printed 'mechs to me for further testing after you're done with yours.

[Novakaine]

I've always thought PGI was to lazy to do the real math.

[Jackal Noble]

Novakaine, on 03 March 2018 - 08:35 PM, said:

I've always thought PGI was to lazy to do the real math.

Too. Dammit man!

[MechaBattler]

I think this just confirms my suspicion that they avoided scaling down to light sizes because they would have a lot of work on their hands since even mediums are stupid big. I understand it was a cost cutting decision. But it's really a bummer they didn't take mech scaling into consideration from the get go. I'm guessing MW5 will suffer as a consequence as well.

Edited by MechaBattler, 03 March 2018 - 08:54 PM.

[Nightbird]

My vote would be to scale Assaults down based on the size of current lights as well.. would solve a lot of the squishiness issues.

[Khobai]

lights dont need to be any bigger they have enough problem as is

so its pretty obvious its assaults that are way too big and need to be smaller

but even so its the medium weight class that gets screwed the most on scaling. if they can only rescale some of the mechs then they need to rescale the mediums the most.

because mediums dont get the speed of lights or the armor of heavies. and to not be scaled properly on top of that is like getting kicked in the balls a second time after youre already collapsed on the ground in fetal position. And I obviously mean the screwed up IS mediums. Not the near-perfect mediums like the hunchback IIC.

Edited by Khobai, 03 March 2018 - 09:49 PM.

[Xetelian]

Mechs are too big.

Volumetric scaling is a lie.


PGI thinks we're sheep and for the most of us, they're right.

[Kiiyor]

This is some good stuff.

The issue with the whole thing for me though is that two mechs with the same weight can have identical volumes, and wildly varying performance due to the shape of their design. A mech like the Awesome, for instance, has a relatively narrow side profile, but is blessed with a freaking enormous frontal torso section with teeny little midget legs. If you compare it to a mech like Señor Gargles, they may have a similar volume, but the Awesome is infinitely worse off due to it's design.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Scale down larger 'Mechs rather than scaling up smaller ones. It'll increase TTK on the bigs, which is good, without screwing over lights, which would be bad.

It would also be very nice if, along with a second (hopefully better executed) rescale pass, PGI would also give every 'Mech the ability to step over obstacles which only come up to their shins, rather than stumbling over them like a drunkard with an inner ear infection. Unrelated issue, I know, but a guy can hope, right?

[Jackal Noble]

agree with most the posts here but at the same time I want my mechs big and imposing.

Edited by JackalBeast, 03 March 2018 - 11:55 PM.

[Brody319]

Assaults should be scaled down to make it accurate. Also can we get a mini-atlas as a medium mech?

[Khobai]

Quote

Also can we get a mini-atlas as a medium mech?

would you like to buy a mini mech pack?

[Tarl Cabot]

Are you able to do that and include.. Enforcer/Trebuchet?!?! Nevermind, the Enforcer/Trebuchet 50ton mechs comes up to approx where the smaller Altas sits on the last screen shot

The issue with lights is that there is an an absolute minimum size in MWO, of which primarily the locust may be right at or under the cusp of it.

And even if the OP is off by a tad, the Atlas when scaled up from the Commando it still likely be no where near its current live size.

[Purusee]

Scratch the Mini-Atlas, I want an Assault-Commando!