478 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

It's plainly obvious that you are CORRECT and they are wrong BUT. Nothing will be done about it.

[evilauthor]

Wildstreak, on 15 March 2018 - 06:02 AM, said:

It is too late for scaling Mechs by lore.

Darn it.

Behold the glory of the original TRO3025 Cyclops!


The reason I picked this image of course is that it has an actual human in the pic to give you an idea of how big mechs were originally conceived to be.

[Nightbird]

HammerMaster, on 15 March 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

It's plainly obvious that you are CORRECT and they are wrong BUT. Nothing will be done about it.

The best reason for PGI to do something about it is MONEY.

The people buying mechs for nostalgia will not care about the scale as long as heavy mechs are big and light mechs are small. The difference between an Atlas and a Commando scaled properly is the difference between standing at the waist or the balls, not a huge difference! For the people who buy a mech in order to do well in matches, the lack of care in sizing means you DO NOT BUY BIG MECHS. Before you say, but quirks, PGI is completely whimsical about them, watch the Annihilator get quirks removed when the Fafnir comes out etc... As someone who happily spent 300$ on this game, there is another 100$ I spent that I regret because sizing issues mean performance is up to quirks which PGI happily takes away to drive sales.

Even if only 25% of people don't buy the larger mechs because of impotency due to size, that's a 33% potential revenue increase if PGI were to bother to reach out.

Fafnir threads:
https://mwomercs.com...fafnir-release/
https://mwomercs.com...-hitbox-quirks/

Every person that thinks the scale is fine will still buy it if scale is done volumetrically, every person that don't think scale is fine is a lost sale.

[Appogee]

Nightbird, on 14 March 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

The only point to this thread is to show mechs are not scaled volumetrically. Some players stronly believe mechs are scaled volumetrically, perhaps because PGI said they scaled mechs volumetrically. They did not.

Russ commented they used volumetric scaling ... and then 'applied their judgement'.

So it's not hard to see where it went wrong.

[Nightbird]

I actually think they did the math wrong and used surface area to scale, and then tweaked. The scaling is near perfectly matched with it.

With volumetric, 2x as in the first post is 8 times the tonnage

With surface area, 2x is 4 times the tonnage. This is because area is to the 2nd power and volume is to the 3rd power.

[Nightbird]

Full line-up, approximate +-5%

[Nightbird]

Kasumi Sumika, on 15 March 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

At 1:09, there is an Atlas and Shadow Hawk side by side

[Tarl Cabot]

The only way that will work would be lights aren't at a level that they can give BJ to either of them....while standing.....

Though the Atlas appears to come at approx quarter way next to the vertical light while the Shadowhawk is at the bottom of it.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 17 March 2018 - 08:58 PM.

[Adridos]

evilauthor, on 15 March 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

The reason I picked this image of course is that it has an actual human in the pic to give you an idea of how big mechs were originally conceived to be.

Delusion.

You can clearly see the guy and the mech have absolutely 0 cohesion whatsoever. He was clearly traced in (or otherwise brought there) from a different picture, most likely after the thing had been done. The mechs are a different height every single time they are drawn with humans. The cockpits are often so small they imply these machines are at least 100 meters tall to be able to accommodate an adult person inside. There have been several canonical "height charts" and they have, without fault, always shown differing data. Today, years later and with those same people at the helm, Catalyst has put out those new redesigns for a starter set. Yo and behold, the mechs have heights cited which are once again nothing like MW:Os, nor any of the previous canonical works'.

If you believe any sort of effort or thought ever went into the Battletech drawings and designs, you are simply deluding yourself for no good reason. These people couldn't even be bothered to have the mech design sheets have weapons where the image shows them on about half a dozen or so mechs in TRO 3025 alone. Man, please...

[MW Waldorf Statler]

of Course ...
in the old Cyclops pic ..the Pilot seating in the Torso ..and the Head is a Fakecockpit and a sensor phalanx ..now the Sensor Phalanx is in MWO the Cockpit...or all the Versions from the marauder...Unseen ...Reseeen ...how many Versions ??? Dark Age...MWO ...all have very different proportions and styles

Sarna marauder



Robotech/Battletech/Project Phönix Reseen

[Nightbird]

Here's another image you posted MW4 Ranger, same 75 tons and much larger cockpit. Based on the size of the seat, the Timber here is 12-13 meters tall.

[kuma8877]

Adridos, on 18 March 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Delusion.

You can clearly see the guy and the mech have absolutely 0 cohesion whatsoever. He was clearly traced in (or otherwise brought there) from a different picture, most likely after the thing had been done. The mechs are a different height every single time they are drawn with humans. The cockpits are often so small they imply these machines are at least 100 meters tall to be able to accommodate an adult person inside. There have been several canonical "height charts" and they have, without fault, always shown differing data. Today, years later and with those same people at the helm, Catalyst has put out those new redesigns for a starter set. Yo and behold, the mechs have heights cited which are once again nothing like MW:Os, nor any of the previous canonical works'.

If you believe any sort of effort or thought ever went into the Battletech drawings and designs, you are simply deluding yourself for no good reason. These people couldn't even be bothered to have the mech design sheets have weapons where the image shows them on about half a dozen or so mechs in TRO 3025 alone. Man, please...

The TRO came out in '86, there wasn't nearly as much ability to composite pictures together in those days. The scale may be off, but that picture isn't a composite.

[Nightbird]

What's wrong with the Cyclops height? I estimate from the height of the person to be around 14 meters

[Adridos]

kuma8877, on 18 March 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

The TRO came out in '86, there wasn't nearly as much ability to composite pictures together in those days. The scale may be off, but that picture isn't a composite.

It was slightly less convenient than just pasting in a new layer in Photoshop but it was very much a thing that existed, was done often and easily by any objective standards.

[Juodas Varnas]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 18 March 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

of Course ...
in the old Cyclops pic ..the Pilot seating in the Torso ..and the Head is a Fakecockpit and a sensor phalanx ..now the Sensor Phalanx is in MWO the Cockpit...or all the Versions from the marauder...Unseen ...Reseeen ...how many Versions ??? Dark Age...MWO ...all have very different proportions and styles

Source please.

Cause as far as i know the cockpit has ALWAYS been in the actual head of the Cyclops. There has even been fluff about it being fragile, which lead to mechwarriors adding extra protection (the helmet-looking thing above the eye), which only led to restricted vision and more shrapnel coming the pilot's way.

(The argument that the pilot wouldn't fit there according to original TRO depiction does not count, cause that's the case with every single mech that also had a human for scale in there)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 19 March 2018 - 02:02 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

in the First Lore the Cyclopspilots im think gave the "Eye" fake Armor and Helmet and the cockpit was under the Eye in theTorso ..later its wandered to the Helmet??? and its give versions with Dual Cockpits?

https://mwomercs.com...yclops-cockpit/

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 19 March 2018 - 03:35 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 19 March 2018 - 03:22 AM, said:

in the First Lore the Cyclopspilots gave the "Eye" fake Armor and Helmet and the cockpit was under the Eye in theTorso ..later its wandered to the Helmet

https://mwomercs.com...yclops-cockpit/

Yeah, the HELMET above the eye is the 'fake protector'.
The Eye is the cockpit.

There is no mentions at all that the cockpit is in the torso (do you not know that there's an actual thing like Torso mounted cockpits?)

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the time of TT BT is by me over 30 years away ..ended with the 3055 Mechs and Clanerea...yes im herad from the Torso Cockpit 3t? for it...thats im all the Time the cyclops misunderstand by the Cockpit Question and think is like the Warhammer (cockpit under the "Head")

[Karl Streiger]

as someone who tries to put a pilot in a Mech believe me for almost every Mech (with exception of the oversized MWO Mechs) you need to place part of the cockpit in the torso.
For example when you scale the Commando to its ~8.5m regarding to the TRO3039 miniature scale chart. You need to place the on a frankensteins construction of a motor cycle seat mixed with a bar stool.
The Wolfhound with its full head head - sure the head can completly eject (how long can a human survive without his legs?) because those will remain.

The best option might be the fetal position found in proto mechs

[Adridos]

Karl Streiger, on 19 March 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

as someone who tries to put a pilot in a Mech believe me for almost every Mech (with exception of the oversized MWO Mechs) you need to place part of the cockpit in the torso.

Pretty much.

It basically boils down to the original creators preferring the Dougram take on cockpits while using the Macross designs as a base for further machines. Dougram style requires large, prominent heads to place the cockpits inside of. Macross, on the other hand, goes with the standard chest cockpits and deanthropomorphising the overall frame. Put together, you have mechs which can only fit people inside the torso while doing their best to appear as if they housed them in the head.