99 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

LRMs are so worthless currently I just consider them to not exist in MWO.

They seem balanced out of fear or concern about what 4xLRM20 on an Assault mech can do and so for the rest of MWO mechs they are pointless to expend payload weight on.

Once upon a time, back in 2014 and before, this was not the case. Back then, if used correctly, LRMs were very good team support and decent defensive weapons.

Perhaps mechs could get better results from LRMs based on lower numbers of missile tubes carried.

Other than that I don't see any fixes for LRMs. However, I don't think balancing LRMs to eliminate OP complaint whines should be the end goal, which is how LRMs are balanced now. (IMHO) No one complains because you would be foolish to use LRMs now.

[El Bandito]

Organised teams in FP still use LRMs effectively on certain maps but that's basically the high point of LRMs. LRMs are at their worst state right now and I stopped using them, sadly.

[Vellron2005]

Well, when we're talking about large tube count LRM use, you have to know that this state, the popular LRM80 assault, is a direct result of an arms race between AMS users and LRM users, and LRMs being nerfed repeatedly.

Using LRMs right now is still fun, but you have to go big. A single LRM10 is pointless. Even 2xLRM15 or 2x LRM20 is not very good without a bunch of support lasers. (Best with 6 ERML as backup)

In the current state of LRMs, go big, or go home. LRM50 is the minimum.

Call me foolish all you like, but I still find LRMs useful and fun to play.

I can list countless examples of amazing games and off-the-chain scores achieved with LRMs.. Personal highscores were all achieved with LRMs (like first-ever 3000 damage FP game), and they sure wrangle those cbills in..

Here's what I see in-game, both when playing with or without LRMs:

1) Every match has some high-horse special snowflake spewing salt over LRM boats.
2) Every match has one or more (more often than not more than one) dedicated LRM boat.
3) Every match is a win or a loss, regardless of points 1 or 2. Usually one-sided stomps, both for the win and the loss.

Conclusions: People play LRM boats. They like playing LRM boats. Having LRM boats is no more and no less advantageous than any other weapon in the game. Abusive people will always be abusive. Above observations were made in both low and high tiers, results are exactly the same.

[Khobai]

If people dont use them because theyre bad, its all the more reason they shouldnt be bad.

[Savage Wolf]

AMS is also a huge problem for the game. If ever LRMs become useful, people will stock up on AMS and then LRMs are useless again, unless AMS was nerfed to uselessness, but then what is the point. Same with ECM.

Just like when laser vomit is overused people use it's counter called... oh right, it has none. Neither has balistics.

Missilies is the only category with counter equipment in the game and that basically means that missiles will always be a circumstantial choice while lasers will always work.

So either all weapon types should have a counter or AMS needs to go.

[PocketYoda]

Good those weapons are best left at home.

[Kiiyor]

I just think the weapon system is in the lower ebb of one of it's states of flux.

No weapon system has fluctuated nearly as wildly in effectiveness as LRM's since the first build of the game was released. Change the damage by 0.1, there's missiles everywhere. Lower the cooldown slightly, they vanish. Tighten the spread, they reign supreme. Lower their arc, they fade again.

They'll probably bounce back. It doesn't take much to make them dominant.

[Vellron2005]

Savage Wolf, on 05 March 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Just like when laser vomit is overused people use it's counter called... oh right, it has none. Neither has balistics.

Actually, they do, only PGI hasn't implemented them yet..

They are called Reactive and Reflective armor I think.. or something like that..

And I think It's high time to give lasers and ballistics some counters too.. That would bring them "more into line" with missile weapons..

[Kroete]

Savage Wolf, on 05 March 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

AMS is also a huge problem for the game. If ever LRMs become useful, people will stock up on AMS and then LRMs are useless again, unless AMS was nerfed to uselessness, but then what is the point. Same with ECM.

Just like when laser vomit is overused people use it's counter called... oh right, it has none. Neither has balistics.

Missilies is the only category with counter equipment in the game and that basically means that missiles will always be a circumstantial choice while lasers will always work.

So either all weapon types should have a counter or AMS needs to go.

Or balance lrms against enemys teams with 2 ecm, 8 ams and 8 radarderp.

The advanced armors would also be an option and more interesting.

[Savage Wolf]

Vellron2005, on 05 March 2018 - 04:10 AM, said:

Actually, they do, only PGI hasn't implemented them yet..

They are called Reactive and Reflective armor I think.. or something like that..

And I think It's high time to give lasers and ballistics some counters too.. That would bring them "more into line" with missile weapons..

I know, but since they aren't actually in the game, I won't count them yet.

And if I remember the lore rules for those they are actually pretty terrible so they would need to deviate from lore to make them worth mentioning.

Kroete, on 05 March 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

Or balance lrms against enemys teams with 2 ecm, 8 ams and 8 radarderp.

And then battles will be won with who ever brought enough counters to whatever the enemy has. I'd rather we didn't have these counter systems as long as it's random who we are up against. I want to win on skill, not on being lucky with my loadout.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Savage Wolf, on 05 March 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

I want to win on skill, not on being lucky with my loadout.

Bold words for someone wanting to use LRMs.

LRMs have counters because they're the easiest weapon in the game to use, with incredible range, require no risk on the users part, and can deal amazing damage to people that are in the open without protection. They're a great tool for poptarts or forcing targets to stay where they're at while being flanked. Just because they're not damage bringing 1200 damage a round anymore doesn't mean they aren't still effective.

[Angus McFife VI]

Lightfoot, on 05 March 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

LRMs are so worthless currently I just consider them to not exist in
Once upon a time, back in 2014 and before, this was not the case. Back then, if used correctly, LRMs were very good team support and decent defensive weaponsl.

Cry more, now you can't scroll over the big red Dorito and and mindlessly click until you hear "Target Destroyed" from 700m behind a hill.

[Savage Wolf]

DerHuhnTeufel, on 05 March 2018 - 04:51 AM, said:

Bold words for someone wanting to use LRMs.

LRMs have counters because they're the easiest weapon in the game to use, with incredible range, require no risk on the users part, and can deal amazing damage to people that are in the open without protection. They're a great tool for poptarts or forcing targets to stay where they're at while being flanked. Just because they're not damage bringing 1200 damage a round anymore doesn't mean they aren't still effective.

Never heard of poptarting LRMs especially because it would nullify your whole point about doing it without risk. But alright. That still leaves one question though: If LRMs have counters because of the ease of use, why doesn't lasers have any? The actual easiest weapon in the game to use.

[Seranov]

Savage Wolf, on 05 March 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

Never heard of poptarting LRMs especially because it would nullify your whole point about doing it without risk. But alright. That still leaves one question though: If LRMs have counters because of the ease of use, why doesn't lasers have any? The actual easiest weapon in the game to use.

Because lasers require you to look directly at your target for the whole duration of the beam, which can be up to a second and a half long depending on what you're using. All that facetime means you need to tank any damage the enemy might put out, and that can be a very significant number. They may be easier to aim, but the lasers sure don't aim themselves like LRMs will and their damage can be twisted very easily (though that's true for any weapon system that isn't a single shell projectile).

The reason people get mad at LRM boats is because most of those LRM boats stay 700m+ from the front line and never share armor at all, then proceed to rant about how nobody is holding locks for them, or that they didn't prevent the lights from chewing their useless asses up. LRMs, used properly, have none of these issues. But here's the hint: they're not Long Range Missiles. They're medium range missiles that work best at ~200-400m, with the LRM boat having its own Tag (and BAP/CAP/CLAP if it can fit it) and backup weapons to boot.

But no, it's more important to carry the biggest launchers you can, as much ammo as possible, and nothing else. /s

[Savage Wolf]

Seranov, on 05 March 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

Because lasers require you to look directly at your target for the whole duration of the beam, which can be up to a second and a half long depending on what you're using. All that facetime means you need to tank any damage the enemy might put out, and that can be a very significant number. They may be easier to aim, but the lasers sure don't aim themselves like LRMs will and their damage can be twisted very easily (though that's true for any weapon system that isn't a single shell projectile).

Lasers don't need to stay on target for the entire duration. They have the option of aborting during the beam duration and still deal some damage. LRMs need to keep lock for the entire travel time or they will deal zero damage. And as you mentioned, all weapons can be spread, yet LRMs are spread even if the target stands still, yet lasers have the option of compensating and staying on the component.

Seranov, on 05 March 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

The reason people get mad at LRM boats is because most of those LRM boats stay 700m+ from the front line and never share armor at all, then proceed to rant about how nobody is holding locks for them, or that they didn't prevent the lights from chewing their useless asses up. LRMs, used properly, have none of these issues. But here's the hint: they're not Long Range Missiles. They're medium range missiles that work best at ~200-400m, with the LRM boat having its own Tag (and BAP/CAP/CLAP if it can fit it) and backup weapons to boot.

We know this. Only potatoes shoot LRMs from the back. They aren't effective back there. So are you arguing that because bad players use them badly that they are easy? I fail to see your point.

Seranov, on 05 March 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

But no, it's more important to carry the biggest launchers you can, as much ammo as possible, and nothing else. /s

AMS forces this. If AMS didn't exist then maybe smaller launchers would be worth it. So the only option is to have enough tubes to break through AMS and have backup weapons which means only assaults can realistically do it.

[Seranov]

Assaults are the worst LRM boats in the game for a lot of reasons. Try running LRMs in Mediums and you'll have less issues. LRMs aren't supposed to be for doing damage/getting kills, anyway, they're for forcing your enemies into cover where your teammates can blindside them, OR for shooting over the heads of your friends as you push on the enemy. Those two things, and nothing else. They're a backup weapon system at best.

[Savage Wolf]

Seranov, on 05 March 2018 - 05:58 AM, said:

Assaults are the worst LRM boats in the game for a lot of reasons. Try running LRMs in Mediums and you'll have less issues. LRMs aren't supposed to be for doing damage/getting kills, anyway, they're for forcing your enemies into cover where your teammates can blindside them, OR for shooting over the heads of your friends as you push on the enemy. Those two things, and nothing else. They're a backup weapon system at best.

I would agree if mediums could carry the necessary loadout and they can't. Either they have no backup weapons or they encounter AMS and are rendered useless. So some balancing is needed to enable mediums to use LRMs effectively. So until then, we are forced to use assaults and the occasional quirked mech like Mad Dogs.

It's not how I want it to be, but it is the way it currently is.

[Variant1]

I use lrms, and i can tell you they are still usable, just make sure to have backup weapons incase they get close. Me i prefer to stick with the assaults and give them all the supprot i can. I sometimes equip at least 1 launcher for either range or something to keep pressure on the enemy or when im moving to help and need something to lug over terrain

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Savage Wolf, on 05 March 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

Never heard of poptarting LRMs especially because it would nullify your whole point about doing it without risk. But alright. That still leaves one question though: If LRMs have counters because of the ease of use, why doesn't lasers have any? The actual easiest weapon in the game to use.

I should have said they are effective against poptarting.

Lasers require you to have actual risk. You have to be able to see the enemy, which means the enemy can see you, and having good aim is significantly rewarded. With LRMs, your teammates can target enemies, and you have the entire red box to aim in. LRMs are by far easier than lasers for basic use.

[Feezou]

6 LRM5 tubes seems to work for me.