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Stomps Are Normal Or Why Most Players Don't Understand Tiers, The Match Maker, Weight Class Balance, Or Game Design Features


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#1 Dogstar

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM

This is an article I've written for my blog, the original is here.

Time and again I see the same stupid complaints on the MWO Forum - 'Match Maker is Broken', 'Tiers are Broken', 'Potatoes are Ruining MY Game', 'Lights are OP', and other whiny crap. Now it's a fair point that one purpose of forums is a place to give players who've been screwed over or had an unlucky streak a place to vent their feelings but that doesn't mean that a total misunderstanding of vital game features is excusable.

TIER DOES NOT EQUAL SKILL!

Seriously. Tier has absolutely no relation to skill whatsoever. None, zip, nada, eff all. What tier represents is WEALTH. By which I mean total amount of c-bills earned ever. Each match rewards you with c-bills, experience, and a small increase towards the next tier (or occasionally a tiny step backwards). as you earn these rewards you are more and more capable of fielding optimised mechs, optimised meaning 'fully kitted out with a decent build, 80+ skill tree nodes, suitable consumables, and a player familiar with it's use'. Each optimised mech costs many millions of c-bills and a large number of matches worth of experience (I'll leave it to the stats experts to work that out).

There aren't really any tier 5 players other than the rare newbie who has just started and is making a complete hash of it. Even a few moderate successes in your first few battles is going to put you at the bottom of tier 4. Thus we cannot expect that a tier 4 player has earned much in the way of c-bills or experience so is unlikely to have many optimised mechs. A tier 3 player however, after many matches, likely has at least one optimised mech and probably enough for a drop deck. Tier 1 and 2 players should have plenty of optimised mechs and sufficient wealth to have tried out different ideas and find the mechs and builds that are 'just right'.

At no point does tier directly relate to skill, how can it possibly? Tier, total like c-bills earned, will slowly increase for even the worst players thanks to it's built in upwards bias. Tier is never a measure of skill and attempting to conflate the two shows a lack of understanding of the game design. The only way to measure skill from tier is to see how fast/how many matches it takes for a player to climb from their first match to tier 1 and as that's not a stat that's recorded it's thus impossible to know.

THE MATCH MAKER IS NOT BROKEN!!

Really. Once you understand that tier is not skill then the match maker makes perfect sense by matching similarly wealthy players against each other. Players without optimised mechs and twenty odd matches fought shouldn't be playing against players with a dozen or more optimised mechs and thousands of battles under their belts. Matching players based on their tier gives matches where all the players have fought a roughly similar number of battles and have earned a roughly similar amount of c-bills and thus should have a roughly similar stable of optimised mechs. It's actually quite fair from a measurable point of view even though it takes no account of skill.

The particular implementation we currently have is however flawed, because the various tiers are too often mixed together. That doesn't matter because...

STOMPS ARE NORMAL!!!

Honestly. Stomps are normal. If you don't believe me go play a few thousand World of Tanks matches... Good, now you're back did you notice that stomps occur just as regularly in WoT as they do in MWO? This is because the game design of the two games leads inevitably to stomps occurring on a regular basis. Whenever you have an arena type game that features multiple players on each side (probably at least 6) and no (or limited) respawns the outcomes will always feature a large percentage of stomps. It's the nature of the design. No respawns means that if a player makes even a single mistake they are out of the game and their side is down a player which immediately puts them at a disadvantage. This early disadvantage then rapidly snowballs into a stomp almost every time. In games where the player has 'hit points' and/or limited respawns there is some small measure of recovery but what that does is generally just delay the snowball effect until later.

There is always a tipping point, generally quite early in the match, where the outcome is pretty much decided bar some heroic or lucky comebacks. If we had the ability to analyse every game from every players viewpoint it would become obvious where and how the tipping point happened and I expect that it would usually be down to one or two players making one or two bad decisions or just getting unluckily caught out making a perfectly sensible decision.

LIGHTS ARE NOT OVERPOWERED!!!!

I had to include this as it seems to be the same silly ***(ault) players who whine about tiers/match maker who also whine about light mechs. In table top Battletech assaults are definitively at a serious advantage, they have the most armour and the most weapons and the random hits make hard to take down. It's usually only on heat where they suffer. Lights tend to be easily taken out even though they are generally fast and thus harder to hit. The TT rules favour heavier mechs and the lore is based on that:

Light < Medium < Heavy < Assault

MWO on the other hand is a completely different game because each mech in a match needs to be equally effective so that they are played equally and we do not end up with the situation where everyone is playing assaults but nobody can get a match. Thus in MWO lights are as good as assaults:

Light = Medium = Heavy = Assault

Unfortunately a lot of the players of this game are hung up on the TT based lore and have a lot of trouble comprehending that for MWO the rules are different. Hitting a mech relies on actual player skill ratehr than random dice rolls and as lights are both fast(er) and small(ish) they are actually harder to hit a lot of the time. They can still be taken out by a single good shot, especially one from an assault wielded heavy ballistic. Even if they get close in they are still just as vulnerable especially if the assault mech is in company, keeping out of the firing arc(s) of an assault mech is not as easy as most assault mech favouring players say it is.

CONCLUSION!!!!!!

SORRY I CAN'T STOP SHOUTING BECAUSE I'M SO ANNOYED. Ahem. These are all basic game design elements that anyone with a lick of experience with this game should be able to understand, but time and again players come up with these silly complaints and even defend them to the hilt. It's really time that these moaners should be mocked mercilessly.

Edited by Dogstar, 06 March 2018 - 10:25 AM.


#2 FupDup

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 10:38 AM

When you state that tiers are not correlating to skill, you're confirming that they are in fact broken because that was their intended design purpose. And since that matchmaker is based on a broken tier system, that means the MM is broken by extension.

However, with that being said, MWO somehow still isn't nearly as one-sided stompy as a game like Overwatch despite the fact that the latter has fast respawns, healing, and fast TTK.

#3 yrrot

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 10:45 AM

Except PGI has stated, multiple times, that PSR isn't designed to be a ranking system. It's designed to separate newer players from more experienced players. "Working as intended".

#4 ClockworkDragon

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 10:47 AM

I just started playing again. I'm tier 5. I'm "ok" at playing if I play cautiously. I mostly play a slow ac20 urbie. I struggle against fast light mechs, but if I can get a hit on them I can usually win. This means that light mechs need to be fast, because 20 dmg to a leg is enough to end their advantage. If I can't take out a light mech, it isn't because the sysyem is broken, it's because they played better then me, and I didn't get a lucky shot in. The lucky shot counts for a lot. Likewise, as an urbie, if I can take out a bigger mech, it isn't because an ac20 is broken, it's because I played better and got my shots in where they mattered.

My advice is simple. Play cautiously and boldly. Call your movement, shoot for the spot. Hope for backup, expect to die. A tactical choice that causes you to die, but your lance to win the fight is a choice worth making. Look to the moment, you can prevail.

#5 roekenny

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:05 AM

View Postyrrot, on 06 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Except PGI has stated, multiple times, that PSR isn't designed to be a ranking system. It's designed to separate newer players from more experienced players. "Working as intended".

The problem is some players have the processing power of a potato and far cry 3's definition of insanity clip pretty much sums pubs up in a nutshell in any game you play and that always filters down into forums, as it's much easier to complain and get things to change so they can be competitive than it is for them to change and be relevant.

#6 KodiakGW

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:12 AM

Using WoT, where seasoned vets with completed low teir tanks can go against brand new players, as a reference as to why stomps happen.

Yeah, all I needed to see. Not worth arguing. Can’t wait till he is T1. Then he will change his tune.


#7 Christophe Ivanov

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:28 AM

Stopped reading after the first sentence "Time and again I see the same stupid complaints..."

#8 Variant1

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostDogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

STOMPS ARE NORMAL!!!

Honestly. Stomps are normal. If you don't believe me go play a few thousand World of Tanks matches... Good, now you're back did you notice that stomps occur just as regularly in WoT as they do in MWO? This is because the game design of the two games leads inevitably to stomps occurring on a regular basis. Whenever you have an arena type game that features multiple players on each side (probably at least 6) and no (or limited) respawns the outcomes will always feature a large percentage of stomps. It's the nature of the design. No respawns means that if a player makes even a single mistake they are out of the game and their side is down a player which immediately puts them at a disadvantage. This early disadvantage then rapidly snowballs into a stomp almost every time. In games where the player has 'hit points' and/or limited respawns there is some small measure of recovery but what that does is generally just delay the snowball effect until later.

Stomps dont happen often (unless mm really hates you) and are not normal nor should they be. The point of mm is to match players evenly in skill so that each player pulls their weight so in theory matches should be more 6-12 to 11-12, stomps happening means the mm somewhere screwed up and decided to put the faze clan up against a bunch of new players. So in general snowball is less likely to happen if players are evenly matched. Stomps mean bad mm and not game design, game design is suppose to be balanced.

Also please don't compare wot to mwo they are 2 different games. The stomps in wot have more to do with the fact the game has terrible mm where it pairs enemy tanks 2 tiers higher than you, tanks are designed different with armor and weapon pen being great deciding factors in snowballing and its worse in that game since tanks are slow your bullets can do no dmg because of armor. In mwo at least you can do dmg and have a chance to turn the match around in your favor

Edited by Variant1, 06 March 2018 - 11:42 AM.


#9 Kubernetes

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 11:49 AM

Of course stomps are normal. Do you all even play this game? One or two guys get caught out of position and die and it snowballs from there.

You know why they never implemented IS vs Clan as 12 v 10? Because even with Clantech the Clans got wasted by the IS’s numerical advantage. Now take a normal SQ match that is not split up by tech base. One side goes down a few mechs and the snowball commences.

#10 Magnus Santini

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 12:08 PM

View PostDogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:


There aren't really any tier 5 players other than the rare newbie who has just started and is making a complete hash of it. Even a few moderate successes in your first few battles is going to put you at the bottom of tier 4. Thus we cannot expect that a tier 4
...
silly complaints and even defend them to the hilt. It's really time that these moaners should be mocked mercilessly.


I agree with a lot of your post but not these two things. Tier 5 queues weren't empty when I was there several months ago and I don't think they are now. If you do not stumble into immediate success in the game, the MM will keep you in the lowlands for a long time. Also, mocking someone mercilessly in the forums is too mean, but you can do it in your blog I guess.

#11 Peter2k

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 12:16 PM

Mmm

Well there sure is a lot of attitude in the OP

But basically you are agreeing with most complaints

People complain about the Tier system and MM (since the MM is, as we all know, being fed with the Tier system, thx for reiterating I guess) because it doesn't provide fun enough matches

I'm not sure how many threads there are complaining about stomps not being the case in ...*fill in game of your choice... and only in MWO, but usually the complaint is that it's not fun being stomped, especially so regularly and so many times in a row
Usually followed by how the Tier system is basically crap

Sure it's a rant post
But there are way more people advocating for the game to be fun
Not particularly agreeing on how, like the community balance attempt shows

There is rarely a post saying balance should be like this because of lore, there are some posts pointing out lore specific roles of weapons (matter of opion still)
But that is more in trying to define a niche for a very particular system/weapon and concurrently altering it's stats (usually not in overly drastic ways)
Not a whole balancing attempt based on lore and it's values


Btw
Citing a game where vets with leveled up tanks and gold ammo can be pitted against newer players for saying stomps are normal isn't overly helping your case
Unless stomps are being received as great fun moments by the looking side in WoT, otherwise the issue is the same

Complaining to hopefully get better match quality, improving fun

#12 Bombast

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 12:31 PM

Most of the threads and complaints around here are based on the fact PSR is not skill based, and thus both Tier and MM are broken, in that they don't work and mean nothing. In the light of that, your rant seems a bit... strange.

Edited by Bombast, 06 March 2018 - 12:32 PM.


#13 Leone

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 12:45 PM

View PostDogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

What tier represents is WEALTH.

I believe your premise is flawed. I am tier three and richer than blake. You seem to still be under the mistaken impression that tiers mean anything.

View PostDogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

Honestly. Stomps are normal.

I do, however agree with your conclusion, though I arrive there via a different route. Also, how dare you suggest I play that game. How dare you sir! I cannot even...

~Leone.

#14 Dragonporn

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 12:49 PM

Do not completely agree with OPs breakdown of tiers system. To do very well in this game you need only one optimized mech, which is very comfortable for you to pilot. During Cadet Bonus you can easily get one such mech, outfit it however you wish and after handful of matches (still in T5) you will have 91 invested skill tree. So, what's the difference between low and high Tiers? Difference is that me, f.e., as a player know a LOT more about positioning, maps, and general ability how to fight and minimize damage, thus I'm able to score a LOT more in this same mech I got at T5. However, since I'm human being and not a robot, it doesn't shield me from mistakes. I think this simple rule applies to 95% of the players out there.

Also, we need to make sure which modes are we talking about here exactly. If it's solo QP, than matchmaking is perfectly fine. It does exactly what is expected of it. To be clear, from casual mode like this, I don't expect every single player to be fullblown tryhard nolife running exclusively meta, and jumping out of his skin to be the best mech pilot in the universe. On the opposite, expect players to be more relaxed and play for fun, rather than pointless ultra competition. That's exactly what happens in solo QP in any tiers of play. Folks running completely different types of mechs, you barely can notice someone running meta, and players may be terrible in one match, but they get on top in the other. That' how fun competitive game should be, and thankfully that's how it is in MWO.

If you live for competition only, and expect every single player to be fully focused and do his/her best every match, please, join appropriate unit, and go play FP or any other competitive mode. What is the point for person who doesn't enjoy game, but drop into the same mode and expecting something this mode is not supposed to be, when there are modes perfectly suited for that player somehow eludes me.

And no, Lights aren't OP, they only punish either bad positioning or bad teamplay, they are perfectly counterable, and that coming from someone prefring running slow Heavies and Assaults in general.

Also Lurms or any other weapon systems aren't OP either, at least not in QP they aren't, otherwise, 95% of players would run these systems exclusively. But somehow I see all types of weaponry and all kinds of mixes of it every single round.

#15 Xiphias

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:14 PM

View PostDogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

TIER DOES NOT EQUAL SKILL!

Seriously. Tier has absolutely no relation to skill whatsoever. None, zip, nada, eff all.

This isn't entirely true though. I agree that being in T1 means fairly little and that when pilots are moving between tiers you can't really determine their skill. That said, if a player has over 1K matches and they are still in T5 their tier absolutely is related to their skill. Tier really only correlates to skill if it isn't T1 and the player has played a lot of matches.

Quote

LIGHTS ARE NOT OVERPOWERED!!!!

Thus in MWO lights are as good as assaults:

Light = Medium = Heavy = Assault

I mostly agree with this except for the fact that if you look at the stats lights actually tend to be a bit weaker than the rest of the weight classes overall. Particularly in high/comp level play the main reason you see lights is because of weight class restrictions.

Edited by Xiphias, 06 March 2018 - 01:14 PM.


#16 Brain Cancer

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:21 PM

At this point, the only thing Tier represents is "I played a lot (or a little)." because of the inevitable positive movement unless you are literally so bad at understanding the game/physically unable to play that you cannot even manage the basic functions of gameplay.

You can be resoundingly mediocre or even incompetent at MWO and still end up in T1. The rotten potatoes have just had more time to stink at higher tiers than lower ones.

#17 Brain Cancer

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:28 PM

Quote

[color=#959595]Also Lurms or any other weapon systems aren't OP either, at least not in QP they aren't, otherwise, 95% of players would run these systems exclusively. But somehow I see all types of weaponry and all kinds of mixes of it every single round. [/color]

This is actually more a matter of how little skill actually matters in marching up the ranks.

You can be a piece of filth at lurms. You'll still go up in tiers. You can fire your ERLLs at ranges usually measured for orbits. You'll still go up in tiers.

Because 1) The good people in good builds tend to carry and 2) As long as they do, your inferior contribution still makes the bar go up and "I'm helping!" positive reinforcement happens.

And I'm only average here, but I get games where I literally have to kill half the enemy team myself to win, while the team is going "Yay, we won!" on a pile of under-200 damage score dead team-mate bodies. Gawd help people when and if all the meta types get shuffled into one team.

Those are the games I screenshot entire teams being lucky to clear 100 damage, much less kill anyone. However, the root vegetable ratio is ever higher as motivated players tend to either end up in group play or quit entirely.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 06 March 2018 - 01:28 PM.


#18 UnofficialOperator

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 07:07 PM

View Postyrrot, on 06 March 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Except PGI has stated, multiple times, that PSR isn't designed to be a ranking system. It's designed to separate newer players from more experienced players. "Working as intended".


I've decided to accept this. Its for good players to feed on the bad players.

#19 Brain Cancer

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 07:11 PM

Basically. The Tier system just keeps feeding players into the main pool, regardless of skill differences.

As long as you don't totally fail at MWO, you will become fodder for the grinder.

#20 InvictusLee

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 07:48 PM

*high fives dogstar*





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