107 replies to this topic

[SWANN]

this is one the of the most poorly reasoned arguments I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

[Dogstar]

Davers, on 07 March 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

I can't believe we are still having these discussions after all this time.

That's because there are still so many players that don't understand the basics - which would be tolerable if they kept it quiet but they have to come to the forums and spout their ignorance for us all to see.

SWANN, on 08 March 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

this is one the of the most poorly reasoned arguments I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

this is one the of the most poorly reasoned rebuttals I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

Seriously, if you want to say I'm wrong it's not enough to simply say it - you have to _demonstrate_ it, otherwise you're just another opinionated eejit

KodiakGW, on 07 March 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Like I said, not worth arguing. Stop writing and get back to playing so you can get to T1 and then give your assessment when you see multiple 99th percentiles on the opposite team.

Edit: I have an alt account that is T3 like you (with only a couple of mediums owned) so I know why you are “thinking” you are right. You don’t see what those you are railing against are seeing. So therefore, you CANNOT make the same assessment of how things are that we can.

I'm trying to understand what it is your getting at here? Are you saying that I never see tier 1 players of great skill so therefore I'm completely unfit to say that stomps are normal?

Well then firstly you are throwing out a logical fallacy known as the Courtier's Reply, and secondly I get to see tier 1 pretty regularly - in the last few matches I've seen both Gas Guzzler and Tarogato. Tier 3 gets to mix it up with tier 1 quite often.

Thirdly you haven't actually spelled out whatever it is that you can see that I can't, all you've done is hint at it - please actually explain what it is, and use simple words because I'm only tier 3 and don''t understand complex stuff like 'shoot the red mechs'.

'A key element of a Courtier's Reply, which distinguishes it from an otherwise valid response that incidentally points out the critic's lack of established authority on the topic, is that the respondent never shows how the work of these overlooked experts invalidates the arguments that were advanced by the critic'

Edited by Dogstar, 08 March 2018 - 08:48 AM.

[KodiakGW]

Dogstar, on 08 March 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

Thirdly you haven't actually spelled out whatever it is that you can see that I can't, all you've done is hint at it - please actually explain what it is, and use simple words because I'm only tier 3 and don''t understand complex stuff like 'shoot the red mechs'.

https://mwomercs.com...its-about-time/

Print screen. Check Jarl’s list. Note percentages. Block out names. Post. Compare to see if you have same percentages of top Jarls list players in your games. Simple enough for you, or you need it even simpler? Need me to make a video on how to do that?

Dogstar, on 08 March 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

'A key element of a Courtier's Reply, which distinguishes it from an otherwise valid response that incidentally points out the critic's lack of established authority on the topic, is that the respondent never shows how the work of these overlooked experts invalidates the arguments that were advanced by the critic'

Please post your credentials as a game developer, professional gamer, or professional game reviewer (not some guy with a YouTube channel), or you are guilty of what you are accusing me.

Edit: Oh wait...you have a blog. So that is your credentials to make an assessment about this game. Yep..seems reasonable........

.......

........

Edited by KodiakGW, 08 March 2018 - 12:21 PM.

[Dogstar]

KodiakGW, on 08 March 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...its-about-time/

Print screen. Check Jarl’s list. Note percentages. Block out names. Post. Compare to see if you have same percentages of top Jarls list players in your games. Simple enough for you, or you need it even simpler? Need me to make a video on how to do that?



Please post your credentials as a game developer, professional gamer, or professional game reviewer (not some guy with a YouTube channel), or you are guilty of what you are accusing me.

and your credentials are what? you're angry?

I'm not accusing you of lacking in knowledge but what you are doing is failing to provide any logic or reasoning as to why whatever it is you're saying is right. You can't simply say 'I'm a better player by stats so I understand the game more than you ever will'.

You haven't explained why not being as good as top players makes my opinion completely worthless, that's the absolute definition of the Courtier's Reply.

Frankly so far you've just been rude and that's not an opinion, it's barely an attitude, either explain what you mean or I'll assume that you're just attempting to browbeat me.

Question: Are you implying that stomps don't happen at tier 1? Or are you trying to say that stomps only happen because the match maker doesn't take into account player stats/skill? What is it you're actually saying?

Edited by Dogstar, 08 March 2018 - 12:40 PM.

[KodiakGW]

Me rude? Posting a thread which is tantamount to saying “you all don’t know what you are talking about, but I do”, and then call me rude.

You know. I should really stop trying to help save this game. Seems like the player base numbers are heading in the right direction anyway. Keep listening to people like this.

KodiakGW, on 08 March 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...its-about-time/

Print screen. Check Jarl’s list. Note percentages. Block out names. Post. Compare to see if you have same percentages of top Jarls list players in your games. Simple enough for you, or you need it even simpler? Need me to make a video on how to do that?

Evidently I need to make a video.

Edited by KodiakGW, 08 March 2018 - 01:07 PM.

[A Really Old Clan Dude]

Take a look at the MWO world championships. the best of the best.

Ah how many stomps: majority

how can you expect us normal nuff nuff pilots end each game 12-(8-11) when it almost never happens when the best take on each other in 8V8

rest my case.

[Nightbird]

Stomps can be reduced if I wrote the algorithm for match making. This is to say, the current formula behind the MM is creating a lot more unbalanced teams, and stomps, than necessary.

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 08 March 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

Stomps can be reduced if I wrote the algorithm for match making. This is to say, the current formula behind the MM is creating a lot more unbalanced teams, and stomps, than necessary.

So, and I want to be clear here, your premise is that balanced teams = matches with closer to 11/12 end of round match scores?

Because you're going to need to support that premise.

I don't doubt you could make a better matchmaker.

However I absolutely do doubt that a better matchmaker would in any way alter the propensity of matches to be 'stomps', as in result in a match that ends 12/1 - 12/4 or whatever the criteria is.

The only narrow circumstance where that would be the case is in matches where everyone is absolutely terrible and there's no decent players on either side. Then you'll consistently have matches that represent a complete strategic failure like an 11/12.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 08 March 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

However I absolutely do doubt that a better matchmaker would in any way alter the propensity of matches to be 'stomps', as in result in a match that ends 12/1 - 12/4 or whatever the criteria is.

The only narrow circumstance where that would be the case is in matches where everyone is absolutely terrible and there's no decent players on either side. Then you'll consistently have matches that represent a complete strategic failure like an 11/12.

It's not like PGI would give anyone a chance so... I'll stick to my day job... determining whether medical treatments work or not

[LordNothing]

i think my view on the whole thing. both points are valid. on one hand the matchmaker is working. w/ls trend to one as they should, and unless you play in the middle of the oc phase in the middle of the week theres enough population for the mm to function. then enter double think mode and wait times are terrible, games are terrible, they are not fun, and people are not sorted by skill as they should be even though thats what the system looks like its designed for.

its like pumping water into holland or new orleans to keep it from flooding, and then saying that the pumps are working 100% and everything is fine. even though the thing you designed to fix the problem is the wrong fix. everything i see says 'new player filter' really loud with games tending towards random as you approach t1. cant have experienced bads farming noobs so you trend them upwards. even though the system is working as intended, it can be better than it is and that is reason enough for the salt on the subject.

a simple math change can make the bubble up go away, then perpetually bad players can farm noobs and make them leave. but what if we have bubble up on a curve, the lower 3 tiers have a bubble up bias, though it ramps down as tier goes up, t2 would be completely neutral and t1 would have a small reverse bias trending players down so they have to fight to stay there. you can calibrate the biases on a tier by tier basis based on tier population to keep them all at roughtly 20%. that way you solve the skill sorting issues as well as the new player issues. it only costs a few math tweaks, a conditional perhaps, and a little babysitting to set biases.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 March 2018 - 02:48 PM.

[Alan Hicks]

Oh sure, stomps are normal and this game is great for that. Just always throw away your effort no matter your skill level, mech or tier. This game is stagnated and its population will never grow now.

Enough time has passed and PGI just cares to milk up the few dumb whales around.

Was fun, years ago.

[Kubernetes]

KodiakGW, on 08 March 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

a bunch of risible fluff

You've yet to advance any argument whatsoever. All you've said is that the OP isnt good enough to opine on the topic.

Fine, here's me: https://leaderboard....ch?u=Kubernetes

I'm a good 2400+ ranks above you and IMO stomps are normal. Your response?

[KodiakGW]

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

You've yet to advance any argument whatsoever. All you've said is that the OP isnt good enough to opine on the topic.

Fine, here's me: https://leaderboard....ch?u=Kubernetes

I'm a good 2400+ ranks above you and IMO stomps are normal. Your response?

And you also must think I’m Jarl’s list shaming him. I have a T3 alt account and I want him to compare numbers with my provided screen shots to show what I’ve already seen at T3. PERIOD.

Let me reiterate the PERIOD. So, how about you post up your next three games screen shots with compare to Jarl’s list? I’m eager to see the results. But, I know you won’t.

Won’t respond to anything else until I see them.

Edit: And just so I know everything is on the level, PM me links to ones without the names blocked. Don’t want screen shots from group play. Solo QP only.

Edit 2: How about that...called it.

Edit 3: Could not respond because VM migration finished and I needed to focus back on that, wrapping up, and drive home. Now home eating dinner, then clean up from yesterday’s storm. To much to write, will be in response to your PM before posting here with the reason why I am not saying any more until I see some screen shots.

Last edit: So my last edit was 08 March 2018 - 06:05 PM. Here we are a full weekend later and no screen shots. Yep..called it.

Edited by KodiakGW, 11 March 2018 - 09:17 PM.

[Kubernetes]

KodiakGW, on 08 March 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

more nonsense

Again, WHAT IS YOUR ACTUAL ARGUMENT?

I don't even know what you're trying to get at, because you havent said anything of substance in this thread.

edit--Nice edit on your part. I'm at work so it would take me 5-6 hours from now to get home, play some matches, and do J-list searches. Regardless, can you PLEASE explain to me what you're trying to prove with such screenshots. Seriously, you have not articulated an argument. At all. I cant even say I disagree with you because I don't know what you're trying to say.

Edited by Kubernetes, 08 March 2018 - 03:49 PM.

[Dogstar]

Kubernetes, on 08 March 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Again, WHAT IS YOUR ACTUAL ARGUMENT?

I don't even know what you're trying to get at, because you havent said anything of substance in this thread.

edit--Nice edit on your part. I'm at work so it would take me 5-6 hours from now to get home, play some matches, and do J-list searches. Regardless, can you PLEASE explain to me what you're trying to prove with such screenshots. Seriously, you have not articulated an argument. At all. I cant even say I disagree with you because I don't know what you're trying to say.

Seconded. Kodiak you may not realise it but you haven't actually put forth a cogent point that describes what we are meant to see when we do all the things you're demanding of us.

To reiterate my question from before that you didn't answer:

Are you saying that there are no stomps at tier 1?

Edited by Dogstar, 09 March 2018 - 04:59 AM.

[SFC174]

Nightbird, on 08 March 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

It's not like PGI would give anyone a chance so... I'll stick to my day job... determining whether medical treatments work or not

"Will we make money with this treatment?"

"Yes"

"It works!!"


...just messin' with you

[Nightbird]

SFC174, on 09 March 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

"Will we make money with this treatment?"

"Yes"

"It works!!"


...just messin' with you

Hahaha is what I want to say... but people spend billions each year on non-approved treatments (scientifically proved safe and effective) and even avoid the cheap stuff that helps a lot (vaccines). We live in a post-evidence world!

[Tiewolf]

Dogstar, on 06 March 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

THE MATCH MAKER IS NOT BROKEN!!


STOMPS ARE NORMAL!!!

Exactly that. People think that MM is or should be skill based and got wrong expectations.

But even if MM would be skill based Stomps would occure even more! Why? Because skilled players see advantages sooner and pull in to exploit em much earlier then non skilled players. If you have a 12v12 skilled player only match and by luck or wrong decisions one side loses a bit of their critical mass the enemy team pulls in and stomp em immediately. Unskilled players remain longer in the poking phase so the outcome looks closer. Just whatch a few comp play games. Most of the time the end results are not close even if only very skilled players are involved on both sides.

In short if MM would be skill based, stomps would even occure MUCH more often then they do right now.

[ThreeStooges]

The team that gets 0-3 first wins 99% of the time.

[PocketYoda]

Prototelis, on 07 March 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

Positioning and situational awareness are both skills indispensable to all classes.

With Assaults agility issues its not skill to get behind one even a skilled one is dead to a average light pilot.. Lights are not op.. machine gun boating is op.

And if matchmaker is not matching customers of the same level then yes its broken.. Sorry but true.

Edited by Samial, 09 March 2018 - 05:09 PM.