107 replies to this topic

[Dragonporn]

Can anyone give at least a single teambased game example like MWO, which has perfect matchmaking system and every single match is even? With evidence please?

From my experience in MWO, yes, stomps happen a lot, but not as bad as in other games, and especially round based ones. Once your mech's dead, you go to the next match with new team. In other games with respawn, better players usually stack in same team (with premades usually) to stomp randoms whole round. Crap like that doesn't happen in MWO, at least not in solo QP queue, and that's amazing.

[Kubernetes]

Samial, on 09 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

With Assaults agility issues its not skill to get behind one even a skilled one is dead to a average light pilot.. Lights are not op.. machine gun boating is op.

It’s balanced by the fact that every MG boating mech is one solid hit away from being crippled or killed. Piranha Week featured some good pilots wracking up crazy scores and hordes of potatoes running in to die in the first minute.

[Gierling]

https://en.wikipedia...hester%27s_laws

Read that and understand why Stomps are indicative of the matchmaker working very well.

It's unfortunately the nature of the beast until we get a mode with unlimited respawns.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

most stopms =less Tactic of one Side ...Dicipline and tactic of the other Side

yesterday FW

Alpine:
my own Team is running in brawl like headless chicken 8 Mechs running from one single Red to another under the focus Fire from the Clan Enemys..you can run with him or alternate stand alone as Single Target ...each "Build firelines and lets the reds" come ignored ..all run around, blocking firelines from mates....a lack of Dicipline to wait of the right moment..each will the kill.

Same by Defense the generators ...running wild around and to the first position alone and fast died in focus Fire. like Battlefield 2 when the Dump mass run from the drop to the first Point to the Hotel Kharkand and died in the Fire and never thinking to better Ways or Tactical awarness ...ADHS Action is the right way..Its the Action ADHS Generation thats plays like Superheros and each is a Iron man.The first problem ist a lack of Firedicipline, Tactical awarness and thats to find in each Game ...from Battlefield to Robocraft.
Im hope thats this player in Future more plays Solaris

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 09 March 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 09 March 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

Hahaha is what I want to say... but people spend billions each year on non-approved treatments (scientifically proved safe and effective) and even avoid the cheap stuff that helps a lot (vaccines). We live in a post-evidence world!

Two funny pieces of wisdom I've heard -

'Alternative medicine is something that has not been proven to work, or even has been proven not to work. When you have proven something to work it's just called medicine'.

'Over the sum total of human history we've answered a lot of mysteries. The answer to every single one of those mysteries turned out to be "Not magic".'

The smarter we get the more people cling to being stupid. There are times I feel like when we finally manage to stupid ourselves out of existence I'm going to be like:

[Jounin Astray]

What if I told you that Lights with high DPS and lag-armor are the equivalent of three Assaults?

It doesn't rely on dice rolls, however skill is also dependent on connection speed and hit detection. Last game I played I was chasing down a little Locust who absolutely 'refused' to take hits despite me being 12 meters behind it and just pounding it with machinegun fire. While I agree with some of OP's points, they need to realize that with newer platforms come newer problems.


A big slow mech that can't turn fast enough will tend to fall to a smaller, much quicker mech that can steadily damage and/or penetrate its armor. Thats simple armored warfare 101. To that extent, its a wonder why everyone doesn't choose only Lights and Mediums.

[Dogstar]

Jounin Astray, on 10 March 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

What if I told you that Lights with high DPS and lag-armor are the equivalent of three Assaults?

I'd say that you have a completely broken understanding of the game.

Samial, on 09 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

And if matchmaker is not matching customers of the same level then yes its broken.. Sorry but true.

What do you mean by 'level'? do you mean wealth? Number of battles played? WL & KD ratios? 'Skill'? As far as I know the MM will not match tier 1 vs tier 4 (or level 1 vs level 4 if tier=level), it's hard to tell, without manually taking screenshots of every match, referencing the leaderboards, and taking a stab in the dark, wether or not it regularly matches tier 1 to tier 3 players.

I think that most of us suspect that it does because there simply aren't enough players most of the time. So while the intent of the design isn't 'broken' the outcomes might be, sometimes - if you assume tier 3 is somehow much less skilled than tier 1 and as I've already pointed out by tier 3 you should be fielding at least a few decent mechs.

Edited by Dogstar, 10 March 2018 - 03:56 AM.

[PocketYoda]

Kubernetes, on 09 March 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

It’s balanced by the fact that every MG boating mech is one solid hit away from being crippled or killed. Piranha Week featured some good pilots wracking up crazy scores and hordes of potatoes running in to die in the first minute.

Piranha pilots have gotten a lot better since release and to add MLX G and ACH with 8 mgs its gotten a little op.

Dogstar, on 10 March 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

I'd say that you have a completely broken understanding of the game.



What do you mean by 'level'? do you mean wealth? Number of battles played? WL & KD ratios? 'Skill'? As far as I know the MM will not match tier 1 vs tier 4 (or level 1 vs level 4 if tier=level), it's hard to tell, without manually taking screenshots of every match, referencing the leaderboards, and taking a stab in the dark, wether or not it regularly matches tier 1 to tier 3 players.

I think that most of us suspect that it does because there simply aren't enough players most of the time. So while the intent of the design isn't 'broken' the outcomes might be, sometimes - if you assume tier 3 is somehow much less skilled than tier 1 and as I've already pointed out by tier 3 you should be fielding at least a few decent mechs.

PSR or skill level if its not matching everyone of a similar game skill its broken and a failure, its also half the reason MWO population is so low because it effectively lets high skill players stomp low skill players with impunity..

I've literally asked in matches what Psr people are some say tier 1 other tier 4, i'm tier 3 seriously that should not be happening ever in the same match...

And yes tiers are skill level even if its a poor skill level to be using.. bad Tier 1s will still be better than bad tier 4s..

Edited by Samial, 10 March 2018 - 06:51 AM.

[yrrot]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've literally asked in matches what Psr people are some say tier 1 other tier 4, i'm tier 3 seriously that should not be happening ever in the same match...

This type of thing also happens in games that use TrueSkill, Elo and other skill based approaches. The concession that developers end up having to employ to improve match making time is that when the player pool in, lets say tier 4, is low, they have to expand the allowed matches to include people that normally won't be allowed to match up. In games like Call of Duty, that also includes figuring out who can even connect to each other due to NAT type, etc., for their peer to peer hosting.

Given that the PSR system they have here in MWO has an upward bias, if there isn't an influx of new players, tier 4/5 might just be low enough population at times to cause that to happen. I guess "population" might be the wrong term. Perhaps "players actively looking for a match". So even if there are a bunch of tier 4/5 folks on, the remainder that didn't get into a low tier match will get pulled into a higher tier match--rather than waiting for one of the low tier games to finish.

[mogs01gt]

Jounin Astray, on 10 March 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

What if I told you that Lights with high DPS and lag-armor are the equivalent of three Assaults?

It doesn't rely on dice rolls, however skill is also dependent on connection speed and hit detection. Last game I played I was chasing down a little Locust who absolutely 'refused' to take hits despite me being 12 meters behind it and just pounding it with machinegun fire. While I agree with some of OP's points, they need to realize that with newer platforms come newer problems.


A big slow mech that can't turn fast enough will tend to fall to a smaller, much quicker mech that can steadily damage and/or penetrate its armor. Thats simple armored warfare 101. To that extent, its a wonder why everyone doesn't choose only Lights and Mediums.

I was LRM'ing a light last night while he was attempting to run away, one quick movement to the right causeed the missiles to miss and hit the ground.. Happened with two salvos. The lag shield literally saved his life.

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 March 2018 - 08:04 AM.

[Mechwarrior9194373]

TIER is directly correlated to PSR which I believe stand for Pilot Skill Rating, now to say that Tier does not correlate to skills then the whole system of this TIERing is garbage.

I don't know how match maker works I JUST PLAY WHAT THE GAMES GIVES ME

Edited by General Lee American Hero, 10 March 2018 - 08:07 AM.

[Water Bear]

The stomp phenomenon is not hard to understand. The fewer 'mechs there are on your team, the more damage each individual 'mech takes.

I actually do see a lot of matches go 5+ to 12. I like to think that whatever hidden metric may be being used to match us up has put a lot of good players together to get to that point. Yes, the surviving team has 7ish 'mechs still alive, but frequently they're all right at the point of death.

[kuma8877]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

Piranha pilots have gotten a lot better since release and to add MLX G and ACH with 8 mgs its gotten a little op.

PSR or skill level if its not matching everyone of a similar game skill its broken and a failure, its also half the reason MWO population is so low because it effectively lets high skill players stomp low skill players with impunity..

I've literally asked in matches what Psr people are some say tier 1 other tier 4, i'm tier 3 seriously that should not be happening ever in the same match...

And yes tiers are skill level even if its a poor skill level to be using.. bad Tier 1s will still be better than bad tier 4s..

I think what you're seeing in regards to the skill level of PIR pilots is that some of the wheat has been separated from the chaff for the initial release (it'll happen again at c-bill release). And by that I mean, the PIR lifestyle is not a lifestyle for everyone, even other light pilots. I have never been one shotted as much as I have in my PIR's, and the majority of players can't tolerate a margin of error so thin as to get over the hump and be truly successful in the machine. For every PIR I see in a match, I see more sub 100 damage performances than I see matches in excess of 500 damage/multi-kill for PIR's.

Granted, when they get on roll mid-game on, they can wreck house and there's no better sound than the ammo expended notification, because that means I'm usually in the 800+ range and had a good day at work.

[Dogstar]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

Piranha pilots have gotten a lot better since release and to add MLX G and ACH with 8 mgs its gotten a little op.

Nothing has changed it's just that the majority of people who did badly in the Piranha (and other clan MG boats) have mostly stopped playing, but the ones left are actually good with those mechs. Lights are not OP, Skill is OP, and most assault pilots are clueless herpy derpy idiots.

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've literally asked in matches what Psr people are some say tier 1 other tier 4, i'm tier 3 seriously that should not be happening ever in the same match...

And yes tiers are skill level even if its a poor skill level to be using.. bad Tier 1s will still be better than bad tier 4s..

Once again you're showing that you simply don't understand how the game actually is - skill level has absolutely nothing to do with matchmaking. We might wish it to be so but it isn't. That's the whole point I'm trying to drive across but you seem entirely unable to comprehend such a basic fact.

Tier 1 shouldn't be matched with tier 4 ever as far as I'm aware - screenshot proof please.

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

PSR or skill level if its not matching everyone of a similar game skill its broken and a failure, its also half the reason MWO population is so low because it effectively lets high skill players stomp low skill players with impunity..

WoT has a ridiculously high player population and rakes in millions of dollars a month - despite having an objectively worse match maker than than MWO - frankly it's such ******* garbage that there's a 258 page thread pinned to their forum moaning about it. They have such a problem with 'mm is broken' threads that they have to corral them all into that one thread:

'Any other threads created about the matchmaker will be merged with this one to prevent matchmaking threads from dominating the gameplay forum.'

http://forum.worldof...cussion-thread/

The match maker has very little effect on player numbers.

[UnofficialOperator]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've literally asked in matches what Psr people are some say tier 1 other tier 4, i'm tier 3 seriously that should not be happening ever in the same match...

Now this is just naive and anecdotal and it speaks to pretty much your thought process whenever you post. Honestly I'm sick of reading your rubbish on the forums. Whenever I said I was surveying ingame, 1 or 2 would always tell me they were T4 or potato tier, especially when I play on a server I'm not familiar with. When I checked the stats, they are thousands of games in and above 95 percentile players i.e. t1 above players. So yes the pilots are just pulling your chain and you can only really check by cross referencing forums.

Fun fact: yesterday a pilot claims to have finally found the all chat toggle after thousands of games...

[Roughneck45]

Yup, pretty spot on.

The only way we are getting the matchmaking people want is if another couple hundred thousand people start playing this game.

Even then, the mechanics favor a stomp. With 100% equal skill teams a 12-3 outcome is still more likely than a 12-9.

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 March 2018 - 08:39 PM.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 09 March 2018 - 09:50 PM, said:

The smarter we get the more people cling to being stupid. There are times I feel like when we finally manage to stupid ourselves out of existence I'm going to be like:

http://www.darwinawards.com/

[PocketYoda]

Dogstar, on 10 March 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Nothing has changed it's just that the majority of people who did badly in the Piranha (and other clan MG boats) have mostly stopped playing, but the ones left are actually good with those mechs. Lights are not OP, Skill is OP, and most assault pilots are clueless herpy derpy idiots. Once again you're showing that you simply don't understand how the game actually is - skill level has absolutely nothing to do with matchmaking. We might wish it to be so but it isn't. That's the whole point I'm trying to drive across but you seem entirely unable to comprehend such a basic fact. Tier 1 shouldn't be matched with tier 4 ever as far as I'm aware - screenshot proof please. WoT has a ridiculously high player population and rakes in millions of dollars a month - despite having an objectively worse match maker than than MWO - frankly it's such ******* garbage that there's a 258 page thread pinned to their forum moaning about it. They have such a problem with 'mm is broken' threads that they have to corral them all into that one thread:

'Any other threads created about the matchmaker will be merged with this one to prevent matchmaking threads from dominating the gameplay forum.'

http://forum.worldof...cussion-thread/ The match maker has very little effect on player numbers.

I understand perfectly psr is skill levels even if you do not believe it is. I just asked in chat again someone said tier 5 another tier 1 ask in your matches if you don't believe me there is no physical way to screenshot what a player says... on voip..

UnofficialOperator, on 10 March 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Now this is just naive and anecdotal and it speaks to pretty much your thought process whenever you post. Honestly I'm sick of reading your rubbish on the forums. Whenever I said I was surveying ingame, 1 or 2 would always tell me they were T4 or potato tier, especially when I play on a server I'm not familiar with. When I checked the stats, they are thousands of games in and above 95 percentile players i.e. t1 above players. So yes the pilots are just pulling your chain and you can only really check by cross referencing forums.

Fun fact: yesterday a pilot claims to have finally found the all chat toggle after thousands of games...

Just because you don't believe someone does not make it untrue, many speak honestly.. others like you less so. That said all different tiers are mixed in this thing which is bogus and broken..

I've had literally thousands of matches on and off in 3 years and i'm still tier 3.. wish i was still tier 4 tbh.

Edited by Samial, 10 March 2018 - 09:39 PM.

[Jman5]

Gierling, on 09 March 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

https://en.wikipedia...hester%27s_laws

Read that and understand why Stomps are indicative of the matchmaker working very well.

It's unfortunately the nature of the beast until we get a mode with unlimited respawns.

Just a TL;DR for anyone who doesn't want to sift through that. The strength of a team is the square of their number. So lets say you have 6 players versus 2 players. the 6 man is not 3 times as strong, but 9 times as strong. You can then estimate casualties with this rule and the 6-man probably wont lose a single player. This is why even just 2v1s are so often 1-sided.

However there are things you can do from a design perspective that can get around this issue beyond just unlimited respawns. For example if the 2-man is really strong and the 6man is really weak stat-wise, then you can make it an even fight. (Think Protoss vs Zerg from Starcraft)

Alternatively you could also allow limited respawns for the first few guys to die on both teams. This would make matches a little tighter by delaying the snowball effect and give the players on the losing team more opportunity to catch up.

Beyond that you could also do other, more controversial things, like giving the losing team some sort of gamey advantage like dropping Long Toms on the winning team. However, I doubt this would be very popular.

Edited by Jman5, 11 March 2018 - 07:46 AM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Samial, on 10 March 2018 - 09:33 PM, said:

Just because you don't believe someone does not make it untrue, many speak honestly.. others like you less so. That said all different tiers are mixed in this thing which is bogus and broken..

Lol did you just smack yourself in the face and proved my point? You seem unable to understand a simple concept. Anecdotes are not proof. The only way to check is both via forum displayed tier and also from the leaderboards.

Look many many months ago, I proved to myself that T4s are mixed into the MM because there were proven named forumers in my game i.e. Dee Eight etc. There were threads on it.

However after the recent tightening up of MM (which they even put in one of the patch notes), I no longer see any known T4s in my game anymore.

About PSR being skill level, it has been proven time and again in other threads that it is just an exp bar with an upward bias (unless you are really really extremely bad at the game even after "thousands" of games)

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 March 2018 - 01:24 AM.