86 replies to this topic

[blood4blood]

To paraphrase Luke Skywalker, every word you just wrote is wrong. I pick Polar because it's got great visibility, a cool atmosphere, and enough cover to fight at any range. It doesn't matter whether I took LRM's or a small pulse/machine gun brawler. That map is all about positioning, not what range weapons you chose. Anyway, LRM boats are only a problem if you actually cross out in the open, which is a mistake on any map.

[Snowbluff]

blood4blood, on 21 March 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

To paraphrase Luke Skywalker, every word you just wrote is wrong. I pick Polar because it's got great visibility, a cool atmosphere, and enough cover to fight at any range. It doesn't matter whether I took LRM's or a small pulse/machine gun brawler. That map is all about positioning, not what range weapons you chose. Anyway, LRM boats are only a problem if you actually cross out in the open, which is a mistake on any map.

Well, given the significant evidence to the contrary, I guess the only correct thing in your statement is that positioning is important, and that you sometimes pick polar highlands anyway, which makes you an exception rather than the rule.

[roekenny]

blood4blood, on 21 March 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

To paraphrase Luke Skywalker, every word you just wrote is wrong. I pick Polar because it's got great visibility, a cool atmosphere, and enough cover to fight at any range. It doesn't matter whether I took LRM's or a small pulse/machine gun brawler. That map is all about positioning, not what range weapons you chose. Anyway, LRM boats are only a problem if you actually cross out in the open, which is a mistake on any map.

I'd have to disagree with the cover as if lights able to flank (not hard) or nacred you are royally ****** and is nothing you can do save hope have a lot of ams cover. It's why alpine peaks never gets any flack as essentially the same map nice and open and clear sights but have solid cover. However I will admit when that map not infested with lrms it has it's moments.

[Brain Cancer]

Vellron2005, on 21 March 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

While I commend this sentiment, here's why it would not be viable for me:

Simple.. especially on polar, I usually play a LRM boat, and rarely get LRMed myself. Why? Because when you play a LRM boat on an open map, you have to do 2 things:

1) Stay in indirect fire - if you get seen, you will get killed fairly quickly.

2) Stay at long range - because if you close in, yes, you will share armor and your missiles will have shorter flight time, but, alas you will get LRMed to death.

So what we do is basically stay at medium to long range, out of direct fire and make yourself look like 12 mechs instead of just one, shooting on anything you can lock as soon as you can recycle those launchers (not overheating and continuing to rain seamlessly is the key).

Um. no. You're perfectly OK as long as you stick with your main group, and standing back just begs for a sneak-and-kill from the enemy team's light/mediums, who will be very happy to delete the LRM boat from your side. Just because your odds are better doesn't mean you want to be firing at 800m+: You want to be inside 500m, like usual, although if it's too hot you may just be parked behind whatever random small hill or in a trench lobbing missiles sometimes. But you should keep moving with the team, regardless of the map.

You should be inside AMS bubble range, assuming LRMs were good enough that people actually wanted to see them outside of Polar/Alpine.

[Brain Cancer]

Snowbluff, on 21 March 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

Not that I'm saying AMS is useless, as point out it works on more things than LRMs, which are more popular in solo queue, and there are more varieties of missiles available after civil war (nearly doubled with ATMs, MRMs, and Rockets).

LRMs and ATMs are about it for AMS counters.

AMS obliterates ATMs disproportionately. LRMs, it does what it can. The others generally fire too close or travel to fast to take significant damage from AMS fire, which is part of why PGI's implementation of them is garbage. Tabletop AMS has the same proportional effect on all launchers, while MWO's AMS is ineffective on fast-and-close, then overeffective on smaller salvos and undereffective on larger ones.

[blood4blood]

Snowbluff, on 21 March 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

Well, given the significant evidence to the contrary, I guess the only correct thing in your statement is that positioning is important, and that you sometimes pick polar highlands anyway, which makes you an exception rather than the rule.

FWIW, I just picked Polar. I'm in a Pirate's Bane with machine guns.
EDIT: Actually, it was a (P) not a (PB), my bad. I'm in the PB now, but other people picked Desert.

Edited by blood4blood, 21 March 2018 - 08:10 PM.

[Snowbluff]

blood4blood, on 21 March 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

FWIW, I just picked Polar. I'm in a Pirate's Bane with machine guns.

As the other guy said above, it can have it's moments. I still usually vote against.

NOW FOR A STATUS ON NARCs IN QP:
I bought the 9 missiles Arctic Wolf, so which comes with a narc and a quirk for it. When I vomit my SR4 x4 and SRM2 x2 I included a NARC, which has actually come in handy. NARC kills are actually worth quite a few space bucks, and unlike the raven that NARCed me, I have respectable armament otherwise. :3

[blood4blood]

FYI, here's a PSA, and no, nothing special here, but FWIW...





And for anyone who doesn't get the point....short range can work just fine on Polar, if you have speed & agility & don't run around in the open. If you're in a slow mech and go in the open and away from teammates, yeah, you're gonna die. Polar has nothing to do with it.

[Kroete]

Vellron2005, on 21 March 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

What a great point.. If you don't bring a NARC for me, why should I bring an AMS for you? In a team oriented game, there's no teamwork to speak off.. Unless in a well coordinated unit of friends..

Wrong:
If you want me to bring ams, what do you bring to the team?

On most of my mechs i brings bap (not only on missileboats) or ams or ecm or both for the team.
But i do i because i want it and not because someone wants it.
If you dement something from others, you must live with the question, what will you bring.

Edited by Kroete, 22 March 2018 - 04:22 AM.

[Lykaon]

Snowbluff, on 21 March 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

Well, given the significant evidence to the contrary, I guess the only correct thing in your statement is that positioning is important, and that you sometimes pick polar highlands anyway, which makes you an exception rather than the rule.

What significant evidence? I see a great deal of anicdotal evidence and confirmation bias.

Your argument is essentially based on " I feel it's true thus it is true" .

And then there is likelyhood of events unfolding in the scenario you disclosed (Narced on polar by a raven)
This scenario is a perfect storm sort of situation. The following must have occured to bring about the scenario.

Polar Highlands must win the map vote.
The opfor has significant LRMs
The opfor has a dedicated NARCer
Your team fails to prioritize the NARCer early game and take it out of play.

What is far more likely is the match would come out to be HPG manifold AGAIN! The enemy may have LURMs but no NARC or worse NARC and no LURMs.

It's easy to see the exception over the norm. How many matches did you play on densely covered map that day? How many matches where the opfor had LRM boat(s) but couldn't leverage them effectively because of map selection? How many matches did your team have an abundance of ECM? or AMS?

When you're on the recieving end of an LRM boat it's easy to remember the instances when they worked well because when the LRMs are not working it's not notable to the targets.


So essentially you are saying that LRM users should mount AMS to help you out on Polar highlands (dispite this not really being that much help as I outlined previously) on the off chance that when they do vote for a map favorable to LRM use that they won't just end up playing on HPG manifold for the 10th time that day.

When players vote HPG manifold time and time again do they ever think "hey this map is a bit difficult for LRMs, I should deploy a UAV and hold locks"

Probably not, they will load up a coolshot or arty strike over a UAV.

Yet playing skirmish after skirmish on HPG is far more likely than seeing polar highlands with the enemy having both LRMs and a dedicated NARCer.

Edited by Lykaon, 22 March 2018 - 06:45 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Stridercal, on 20 March 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

If people can't figure this out, block them and you won't have to worry about it again.

Block people for using a weapon system? Please leave the game.

[Snowbluff]

Lykaon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

What significant evidence? I see a great deal of anicdotal evidence and confirmation bias.

Your argument is essentially based on " I feel it's true thus it is true" .

Nope, it's simply the case. LRMers WILL vote for Polar because it's the best map for them. There are other people who vote for it, but they should probably be doing the same thing. As pointed out, if you've been NARCed, there really isn't anything you can do if you have no ECM. And I'm not just saying help me, I'm saying help themselves.

I have been bringing a NARC for the last 20 matches to test it out. I do carry UAVs. I do spot for missiles. When I'm not doing these things, I'm bringing a power, direct fire focused build that simply has to carry the LRMers. Having done the NARC role, I can say HPG is actually really good for LRMs if you can keep your enemies out of the basement or off the top, as the lines of the ramps don't make for good cover.

In short, you're full of it, almost as much as blood4blood. He may have a personal preference for the map, but that's the real anecdotal evidence.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

I'm not alone in almost never dying to LRMS. So, what are those players doing that the ones I kill over and over with LRMS aren't?

[Siegegun]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 22 March 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

Block people for using a weapon system? Please leave the game.

I believe he meant add the player to the block list, he assumed he could block the player from playing a match with him. Which he cannot.

Mechwarrior1441491, on 22 March 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm not alone in almost never dying to LRMS. So, what are those players doing that the ones I kill over and over with LRMS aren't?

The same standard lrm player answer. Most lrm players play with slow crawling assaults, being static, and usually attempting to fire at enemies 500+ meters away. I play a medium relatively mobile lrm boat, I move with the deathball, firing from just behind the frontline 200-500m away. Harder to kill me when I'm surrounded by heavies and assaults. I try to focus on whatever the frontline mechs are focusing on. I do just fine with lrms. I do not consider myself a good player, nor do I consider lrms good weapon systems but this season of the leaderboards I was ranked 1600 in mediums (I have fallen to 2100 ish, I haven't played a lot in the last week), This season in mediums I played my fav med lrm boat almost exclusively (other seasons I haven't really, I'm not a comp player, nor am I stat driven). I also only play solo now in QP, my unit stopped playing and I haven't grouped since. So no inflated stats. No epeen either by the way, I do not care about that sort of thing, just pointing out at least in solo QP a well built and played boat is not totally useless.

[Dee Eight]

MischiefSC, on 20 March 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

It's 1 ton.

AMS, 1/2 a ton of ammo. That's enough to get you through a push to the enemy.

There's very few builds that wouldn't benefit from it. It works against ATMs very well and it can kill a few SRMs and streaks. If the whole team has it you'll gimp the hell out of MRMs and SRMs and shut ATMs and LRMs down completely.

1 plain old mechanical AMS and a couple nodes with a ton of ammo should account for easily 320+ missiles in your typical QP match. That's TEN TONS worth of standard armor protection if they're just MRMs, LRMs or long range ATMs. Either for yourself or your team...if its close range ATM fire, or streaks or SRMs its even more virtually free armor protection.

Edited by Dee Eight, 22 March 2018 - 08:59 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 22 March 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm not alone in almost never dying to LRMS. So, what are those players doing that the ones I kill over and over with LRMS aren't?

You know, I bet most people don't go on the forum to learn how to take cover and stuff like that. *shrug*

Dee Eight, on 22 March 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

1 plain old mechanical AMS and a couple nodes with a ton of ammo should account for easily 320+ missiles in your typical QP match. That's TEN TONS worth of standard armor protection if they're just MRMs, LRMs or long range ATMs. Either for yourself or your team...if its close range ATM fire, or streaks or SRMs its even more virtually free armor protection.

Wow, someone did the math. I guess it is easily worth it's tonnage in ammo. Of course, if you dodge the missile anyway I guess the ammo goes to waste.

[roekenny]

Lykaon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

What significant evidence? I see a great deal of anicdotal evidence and confirmation bias.

Your argument is essentially based on " I feel it's true thus it is true" .

No secret that potatos love that map reason called LRM lands and you know no one can get evidence as PGI has all the raw data and not keen to share as would fuel way too many fires.

Lykaon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

It's easy to see the exception over the norm. How many matches did you play on densely covered map that day? How many matches where the opfor had LRM boat(s) but couldn't leverage them effectively because of map selection? How many matches did your team have an abundance of ECM? or AMS?

On how many maps how about every single one other that Highlands they all have a nice wall somewhere you can hide. This is the sticking point people have for that map there is no wall just shallow hills so if you do get the perfect storm you can't do anything and no one likes it when they are literally ****ed and can do nothing about it. As for using maps what don't let LRMs use them effectively I can count one if fight happens on lower level on crimson straight the rest you have to be close range fire support and flank a bit but are able to use them pretty much anywhere. However you have to do a bit of grunt work to get them to work or just going to hit walls.

Lykaon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

So essentially you are saying that LRM users should mount AMS to help you out on Polar highlands (dispite this not really being that much help as I outlined previously) on the off chance that when they do vote for a map favorable to LRM use that they won't just end up playing on HPG manifold for the 10th time that day.

When players vote HPG manifold time and time again do they ever think "hey this map is a bit difficult for LRMs, I should deploy a UAV and hold locks"

Probably not, they will load up a coolshot or arty strike over a UAV.

Yet playing skirmish after skirmish on HPG is far more likely than seeing polar highlands with the enemy having both LRMs and a dedicated NARCer.

Agree you should look after yourself as LRM mechs in rear so will kill 2 missiles at best so next to pointless. However HMG manifold in not difficult for lrms you just have to flank wide and expose yourself a bit more. People hold locks and pop uav's a dam sight more than LRM's "help" the rest of the team so before bringing the argument we should help the LRM's maybe if they met team half way people would be more receptive to doing more for them.

Lykaon, on 22 March 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

Yet playing skirmish after skirmish on HPG is far more likely than seeing polar highlands with the enemy having both LRMs and a dedicated NARCer.

Again yes that's the perfect storm but it's the one storm what on any other map cannot just kill you outright with no retaliation and people do not like been helpless. High aplhas you dodge twist and keep moving, annoying PIR-s in the back you spot them first and pump lead into their legs, Narced you hide, everything bar that one map weapon combo you could do something about in any mech configuration and this is why it keep popping up.

[HauptmanT]

But....

I've designated my new SunSpider as my Lurm boat, and it doesnt have an AMS slot.
The side torso drama, plus super high arm mounts makes it a great lurm boat. I can stand 10 meters behind an atlas and lob lurms over it's head now.

But... no AMS slot. So you guys are BONED!~

[roekenny]

HauptmanT, on 22 March 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

But....

I've designated my new SunSpider as my Lurm boat, and it doesnt have an AMS slot.
The side torso drama, plus super high arm mounts makes it a great lurm boat. I can stand 10 meters behind an atlas and lob lurms over it's head now.

But... no AMS slot. So you guys are BONED!~

That lack of AMS on that mech what clearly is a AC/ laser hill humper is not why we are boned

Edited by roekenny, 22 March 2018 - 10:45 AM.

[Snowbluff]

roekenny, on 22 March 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

That lack of AMS on that mech what clearly is a AC/ laser hill humper is not why we are boned

Still, I give him bonus points for being able to lob missiles over an atlas.