113 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

JC Daxion, on 23 March 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

And, yet those people not playing in top meta mechs, won't be playing against said meta.. So if you are in a T1 mech, and playing top comp meta.. and i'm in a T3 mech,, I'll never play you, period.. (unless of course the gates open)


People DO want to just play with their one bud. I know many folks that pass on this game because that is not an option. Now it will be..


people -play 1 v 1 all the time in tons of games, Yes if you play against someone good, you can loose, but that is why they play the game because that is not always the case. It's why so many sports have a best of 5 or 7.. sure there are a top few people but the rest of the teams/people fall into something different.



Have you never competed before in anything? I know i have and had plenty of good rivalries.. I won a bunch.. they won a bunch.. Every single match/day/game is different. I am sure there will be some top guys in some certain meta in t1 top level matches.. But how everything will play out in the lower levels of mechs/players is anyone's guess. Unless you have some sorta magic ball.. i could of borrowed it to make a mint on march madness.. So many top teams loosing


Meta will be different in different levels of mechs, because top mechs are not being used

There will be a meta along all 7 tiers. For example I can smash the **** out of people with a Vindi 1X with MRM40, 3lmgs and a flamer. It's a terrible mech - except that against other terrible mechs it'll wreck faces. Every tier will have a meta of its own. It's silly to think otherwise. There's no magic zone of mechs where they're all equal with any/all loadouts.

I've competed in a ton of things that are a physical challenge or are luck driven. MWO however leans heavily into what mech you brought and then into skill. It's apple and oranges. Chess is probably a better example. If I'm better than you at chess I'm going to win the great majority of the time. If we are racing, whichever of us is fastest will win almost every time unless they get slower or the other person gets faster.

With 7 tiers of mechs you'll have a very inbred group of people you play with, unless it's throwing wildly uneven matches. So it'll be the same people again and again and again, which will be very 1-sided, or it'll be wildly uneven.... which is also uneven.

If it was 1 hit 1 kill with 4 weapons available you'd have a lot of variety because luck becomes a much bigger factor. Mech loadouts, way longer TTK, luck is way less of a factor.

I've probably done more 1 v 1s than most people have done FW drops total. Hundreds, at least. Not just with KCom but people across all the skill spectrum. There's tons of people who've played more 1 v 1s than me. I've done it in stock mechs, trial mechs, specific mechs for kicks, whatever works best, a pretty wide stretch. The better player, even if it's a small gap when we're in matches, is a huge gap in 1 v 1. Better mech design, even with bad mechs on both sides, also a huge gap.

Aim legs, carry minimal ammo. Flamer always worth 1 ton. Have a low heat/heat neutral option or be fast and able to keep range. Big alpha always very strong. MRMs going to be really strong. Save for light v light streaks will be largely useless. ATMs/LRMs almost useless save maybe, just maybe, in 2 v 2 if you're like T5 or bad T4 range. Given, again, that you'll often be way outside your skill range that's still going to be terrible.

I'd love for it to be better, but it's not going to be. 30-60 days in we'll revisit this and it'll be complaint posts and population on decline. It'll be a new comp queue.

[KursedVixen]

Reguardless I'm more for less new features and more bug fixes. My game still crashes and there are many many other problems with MWO I hope MW5 is not as buggy because making buggy games is not a good buisness model.

[Asym]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

There will be a meta along all 7 tiers. For example I can smash the **** out of people with a Vindi 1X with MRM40, 3lmgs and a flamer. It's a terrible mech - except that against other terrible mechs it'll wreck faces. Every tier will have a meta of its own. It's silly to think otherwise. There's no magic zone of mechs where they're all equal with any/all loadouts.

I've competed in a ton of things that are a physical challenge or are luck driven. MWO however leans heavily into what mech you brought and then into skill. It's apple and oranges. Chess is probably a better example. If I'm better than you at chess I'm going to win the great majority of the time. If we are racing, whichever of us is fastest will win almost every time unless they get slower or the other person gets faster.

With 7 tiers of mechs you'll have a very inbred group of people you play with, unless it's throwing wildly uneven matches. So it'll be the same people again and again and again, which will be very 1-sided, or it'll be wildly uneven.... which is also uneven.

If it was 1 hit 1 kill with 4 weapons available you'd have a lot of variety because luck becomes a much bigger factor. Mech loadouts, way longer TTK, luck is way less of a factor.

I've probably done more 1 v 1s than most people have done FW drops total. Hundreds, at least. Not just with KCom but people across all the skill spectrum. There's tons of people who've played more 1 v 1s than me. I've done it in stock mechs, trial mechs, specific mechs for kicks, whatever works best, a pretty wide stretch. The better player, even if it's a small gap when we're in matches, is a huge gap in 1 v 1. Better mech design, even with bad mechs on both sides, also a huge gap.

Aim legs, carry minimal ammo. Flamer always worth 1 ton. Have a low heat/heat neutral option or be fast and able to keep range. Big alpha always very strong. MRMs going to be really strong. Save for light v light streaks will be largely useless. ATMs/LRMs almost useless save maybe, just maybe, in 2 v 2 if you're like T5 or bad T4 range. Given, again, that you'll often be way outside your skill range that's still going to be terrible.

I'd love for it to be better, but it's not going to be. 30-60 days in we'll revisit this and it'll be complaint posts and population on decline. It'll be a new comp queue.

Well said !

Imagine how bad it can be and double that.... The entire process is leaderboard and match score driven. Success is the measurable skill: how you get there...............well, that is the operative question.

It is really funny, looking from the outside inward: a large portion of the corporate gaming community are seriously trying to wrestle toxic meritocracy's that are killing gaming populations.... There are several good articles written about this of late.

And yet, what is PGI strategically doing? Going right into the paradigm everyone else is desperately trying to escape......... Oi Vey.

SC: "I'd love for it to be better, but it's not going to be. 30-60 days in we'll revisit this and it'll be complaint posts and population on decline. It'll be a new comp queue." Yep.

Solaris will survive and MWO will still be here because just about nothing can disturb this super small and eccentric niche market and that is why PGI isn't as involved as they should be........... When whales stop buying is the only remedy to wake up PGI and then, it just may be too late for the IP to stand alone.

[Krivvan]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

There will be a meta along all 7 tiers. For example I can smash the **** out of people with a Vindi 1X with MRM40, 3lmgs and a flamer. It's a terrible mech - except that against other terrible mechs it'll wreck faces. Every tier will have a meta of its own.

There are no flamers in Solaris. Also, the Vindi 1X can run MRM40 with 3 LMGs, and so can half the other mechs that will likely be in its tier. Not to mention that the absolute hard counter to that MRM Vindi will be a Light mech. Even a Spider 5V completely tears apart most MRM builds even if its in MRM range. MRMs do high damage at point blank, but at even moderate range (100m) they stop doing effective damage against smaller mechs.

The absolute worst the meta will get within the Solaris tiers is a rock paper scissors. I can't think of a single mech build in the entire game that doesn't have a soft or hard counter in a 1v1 context. Even the Piranha in a Light 1v1 has hard counters from other Light mechs that don't involve streaks.

Big alpha also gets mitigated by the fact that there will be no consumables. Generally under the conditions of no flamers and no consumables, the builds that tend to be stronger are ones that emphasize sustained DPS and HP, not those that emphasize Alpha.

Edited by Krivvan, 24 March 2018 - 06:48 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Solaris will likely be used to collect data on mech vs mech balance to assist design of MW5.

[Krivvan]

feeWAIVER, on 24 March 2018 - 06:46 AM, said:

Solaris will likely be used to collect data on mech vs mech balance to assist design of MW5.

If I'm not mistaken they've already said that Solaris would not be used for mech balancing decisions. Which is good, because 1v1 balance is nowhere close to 12v12 balance.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Krivvan, on 24 March 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

If I'm not mistaken they've already said that Solaris would not be used for mech balancing decisions. Which is good, because 1v1 balance is nowhere close to 12v12 balance.

They say that now, but we know that’s a lie. In fact I can’t believe it was even said.

This game was never balanced at the 12v12 scale.

[feeWAIVER]

Not for mech balancing in mwo perhaps,
But with MW5 having load out specific chassis, it could be expected they are going to be collecting data on performance in MWO.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

feeWAIVER, on 24 March 2018 - 07:14 AM, said:

Not for mech balancing in mwo perhaps,
But with MW5 having load out specific chassis, it could be expected they are going to be collecting data on performance in MWO.

Nope thankfully mw5 will not be ruined by MWO. Balance designed for PVP will not be needed because AI isn’t a paying customer and won’t cry on the forums.

The only thing I want transferred from MWO to MW5 is the mechs and customizable loadouts in the future.

[JC Daxion]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

I'd love for it to be better, but it's not going to be. 30-60 days in we'll revisit this and it'll be complaint posts and population on decline. It'll be a new comp queue.

Well i've played enough games to know that most will end, so anyone ranting this game is doomed eventually will be right. I can only name a few exceptions, like starcraft and WOW that are bucking that trend.. But be serious, how many games do you play for 20+ years? or 10+ or even 5+? I know i only have a handful that i go back to from time and time, but they hardly make up the majority of my gaming time. Yes Starcraft, Baldurs gate, Tropico, dungeon keeper and the best game ever, Freedom Force!! will always hit my play list every year or so. But out of the 100's i've played, only a few make it to that level and 90% are 1 and done. Then the majority falls into what is semi new, and what did i just buy. So this game making it 5 years is a real feat that people just don't really acknowledge. Games don't last that long on nostalgia alone, they just don't. People obviously enjoy the game despite what the small minority suggests. you know the people i am talking about, some how they have 2k hours played on the worst game ever made, by the worst company? talk about hyperbole

Sorta like the people that ***** about Pardox's DLC.. Some don't want to spend money to update a game, but i know i really enjoy that I've been playing CKII since 2012 and it still feels fresh and challenging. They can always wait till they finally move on and buy it then, but you could be waiting a very long time to get a EUIII complete version. But that is my point, you just can't please everyone, it just ain't happening. (aka power draw was great, Power draw sucked! I wish it would come back personally)

maybe i am too optimistic, but you seam to be falling on the pessimistic side. It really all depends on how it all plays out, and if this can bring in new blood and grow. I personally see PGI as a very good thing to these games, and IMO the best mech games made and i still go back and play the old, even MC and MCII. The others were plagued with bad though, while still being fun. Mech 3 was a bug fest and such an early 3D game it really shows it's age. Mech 4 was huge step up, but the power creep was real and mods made it worse. It still had a small hard core group of fans for sure but most have moved on long ago. But that is not really the issue here.


What remains to be seen are how the tiers play out.. I am sure some mechs will float to the top, but when it comes down to weight classes being mixed it really is anyone game, especially at non-top skill levels. Including the ever important new player experience. The thing this game is missing most for new players is the ability for a couple of new players that know nothing to jump in and play one another. Take Bar pool.. i've watched a couple of people play a game that takes um an hour and had a great time.. I've watch my bud.. (may he rest in peace) almost run the table 10 games in a row in the same time frame. Both had a blast. The thing is now, there is no way for those bad players to play each other and have fun doing it which tuns many off.

The other side is the same with two people. there is a giant gamer population that likes to play 2v2. How many FPS's fill this niche? (i am asking because i haven't the faintest idea) All i know are how many people come to new player forums and Steam talking about this very thing. They get thrown to the wolves of group, OR play solo, there is no in between. With a proper MM, this actually could be that stepping stone.



But all and all,, seeing russ has stated you can see builds on mechs used to get said postion.. i fully expect to see you at the top of one of the leader boards in that Vindi..


As long as there is not a huge influx of smurfs trying to game the system, the new player experience should get better over all if enough new people are playing. I for one see this as a new beginning to MWO, and if it does keep growing and BT over all keeps growing for the next generation who knows where it could lead too. Maybe comp play could lead to different divisions, maybe FW will actually have enough folks to make it really mean something. (though work does need to be done on the FW side of things, but really can't because of the small pop)

All i know is i am excited and happy it is coming, and i hope it is a good thing. .

[Mystere]

Krivvan, on 24 March 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

If I'm not mistaken they've already said that Solaris would not be used for mech balancing decisions. Which is good, because 1v1 balance is nowhere close to 12v12 balance.

Well, PGI seems to respond to dumpster fires. So that would probably be the angle of attack.

Edited by Mystere, 24 March 2018 - 09:59 AM.

[oldradagast]

Asym, on 24 March 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

It is really funny, looking from the outside inward: a large portion of the corporate gaming community are seriously trying to wrestle toxic meritocracy's that are killing gaming populations.... There are several good articles written about this of late.

Interesting point there - "toxic meritocracy" is a very good description of these types of environments. Some years back, I labeled the people who wreck games in this way as "hyper-competitive sociopaths," but it's the same idea. It's not that being good is the problem, but rather the nasty, toxic, spiteful, and immature behavior that exists in such environments. Places where new players and creativity aren't welcome, where winning is all that matters - and cheating or pathetic exploitation of game mechanics are fine to achieve that, and where people behave like nasty, spoiled brats.

There are way too many of these toxic meritocracies out there in gaming these days, and Solaris 7 will probably turn into another one. I doubt we'll see the utterly horrible behavior seen in some other games (such as my one game in Dota 2, where people actually said that they hope somebody kills me because I dared to be a noob?!), but toxicity will still exist, along with endless stomps and boring gameplay.

Outside of goofing off with one's friends in private duels, which you can basically already do without Solaris 7, I don't see this ending well in the long run for the game. It'll be easier to support than Faction Play, so from a cost-cutting perspective, it may have uses, but it's not going to pull in lots of new players.

Edited by oldradagast, 24 March 2018 - 10:06 AM.

[Krivvan]

oldradagast, on 24 March 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

There are way too many of these toxic meritocracies out there in gaming these days, and Solaris 7 will probably turn into another one.

I'd actually argue that it does the opposite in many ways. Part of the reason for toxic behavior in a number of competitive games is actually the team aspect. With a large team, it's easy to assign blame away from oneself and attack others. This gets amplified in games where an under-performing team member greatly affects the outcome of a match. One example of this are MOBA games like Dota 2 and LoL. Contrast with games like Battlefield 1 where not every player on a team is essential and the games are more chaotic you'll find that there are fewer toxic players.

With a 1v1, or 2v2 without a random team-member, the number of options of who to blame is lessened.

Edited by Krivvan, 24 March 2018 - 10:19 AM.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

The blame will still be everything else but the individual.