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Last Chance Mechs In Lore?


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#41 Metus regem

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 05:54 PM

View PostKoniving, on 10 April 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:


There is so to speak. But beyond that there are manufacturers making things in specific regions as such if you operate in an area it makes sense that you use units that can be easily supplied with replacement parts. No supplier for your stuff and the attrition of your situation will run you space poor quick.

Of course this depends on how "true" to the game you play too.
To some an AC/5 is an Ac/5. But to others the Mydron C autocannon (Ac/5) is not a GM Whirlwind/5 and thus completely incompatible with my Marauder...for example. Even if it were then my own ammo would be worthless since they Dont take the same shells.


Sounds like you've been to one of the sessions of my group... for example, when my Warhammer 6R lost one of her PPC's it became a mission and a half to loot not just a correct manufacturer but a correct era PPC to replace it with our a drawback in performance...

#42 SMDMadCow

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 06:34 PM

View PostMechaBattler, on 10 April 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

In the table top is there an index on mech availability in a given region of space? I don't know why I didn't think to ask that sooner.

Also, putting giant hatchets on vehicles to ram into enemy mechs is my kind of crazy. <3


The Master Unit List
http://www.masterunitlist.info/

#43 Koniving

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 10:19 PM

Not sure how necessary era would be the designs didn't change much. So long as it was made for your variant or at least chassis you should be good. But like SHK with at least 3 unique skeletal chassis and the Hunchbacks with two unique chassis within the same primary variant (Komiyaba Type VII and Crucis type V) you get plenty of issues there. How PPCs are manufactured like many other things didn't change within a brand name.

Now there are exceptions. For example one brand that alludes me had standard variants and red alert versions. They are still the same class Ac. I believe even the same caliber. But they were A] mounted on different mechs and B] functioned uniquely enough that one was considered more vicious than the other despite both just falling under Ac/5.

But Donal ppc made for Warhammer X should work even if taken from Warhammer Y provided that the skeletons are the same and the setup want changed drastically as to shove the ppc in the chest for example.

But like that hunchback example. One is considered compact enough that it is forces to have an externally mounted drum and the other initially removed the drum and stored the ammo internally and fit in double heatsinks after completely redesigning the interior with newer tech from a new factory to build the first brand new hunchbacks in nearly 200 years including the "classic" line...with the new changes. Completely incompatible as a corporate maneuver to ensure all parts and orders went through them for maximum profit.



#44 MechaBattler

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 10:56 AM

Where did they get the idea of the number of slots in a mech if by the lore the chassis have different internal space? Especially since a light has the same number of slots as an assault. It seems like that could have been defined per chassis.

#45 Metus regem

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:19 AM

View PostMechaBattler, on 11 April 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

Where did they get the idea of the number of slots in a mech if by the lore the chassis have different internal space? Especially since a light has the same number of slots as an assault. It seems like that could have been defined per chassis.



Game balance...

If you think about it logically and use real world fighting machines as an example, they would be built around their equipment with very little wasted internal space... this also means that swapping equipment would mean you could only place same size or smaller equipment in it's place, provided it is roughly the same shape and has the same needs. (ammo feeds / power cables)

#46 evilauthor

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:25 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 11 April 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:



Game balance...

If you think about it logically and use real world fighting machines as an example, they would be built around their equipment with very little wasted internal space... this also means that swapping equipment would mean you could only place same size or smaller equipment in it's place, provided it is roughly the same shape and has the same needs. (ammo feeds / power cables)


Which seems to be the case with mechs. If a you roll a crit that hits an empty slot or something that can't be critted (Endosteel or FF Armor for example), you have to reroll what gets hit until something that can be critted gets critted. The only exception to this rule of course is if there's nothing to crit in the section to begin with or if everything that can be critted already has been.

#47 MechaBattler

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:24 PM

What about myomer muscles? Where are they represented in the internal scheme of the machine?

#48 Koniving

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:16 PM

Under actuators. Given that myomer muscles can both communicate information and receive commands even when the hand actuator is dangling by just a few strands of the muscle to move the finger(s).... which is a very specific example from the TechManual... Pretty much you cant "crit" the muscles. This is akin to the explanation that the "shock" from PPCs will do nothing to the Myomer.

In the very description of the Atlas D and Atlas K, the Atlas is so tightly packed that they couldn't fit a proper lrm 20 into the mech. Instead there is a rapidly reloading 5 tube launcher on the hip. On the K they didn't have time to design an armor replacement for the hip launcher so they left it to build as an empty husk. (The factory they used was stolen from the Daviobs and apparently they are in a rush). They yanked out the srm6 and were able to give it 20 tubes by splitting them between the left and right torsos.

As you can imagine the lrm 20 from an Atlas D and K would be considered incompatible. No room to make use of that hip launcher due to the larger size of the extra light engine. Technically I think the Gauss should be up higher too.


#49 Koniving

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:29 PM

View PostMechaBattler, on 11 April 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

Where did they get the idea of the number of slots in a mech if by the lore the chassis have different internal space? Especially since a light has the same number of slots as an assault. It seems like that could have been defined per chassis.


There are few very specific cases where there is wasted space. The Thorn ...S I think it is? Or N? Comstar changed the normal thorn's skeleton from end to std with minimal modification such as lightening the armor load leaving enough space for technicians to crawl inside the arms and legs. As such that variant has easy to repair as a trait.

In the omnimech scale chart mechs with end and ferrous are much larger than mechs with just one or neither.

As such Thorn was already big for a 20 ton light and didn't shrink with the change.

The slot limits are universal as in Battletech you are expected to be able to use the construction rules to be able to make your own fun in the sandbox with original designs. Even mechs have huge gaps between their variants with the notion that players would fill them in. As an example of creating my own units I used the same ruleset to create tanks from Ghost in the Shell, various labors from Patlabor, and even some Wanzers from Front Mission.

Separate from this is modifying a mech in a campaign where the technicians and astechs have to actually change parts out there is a very different setup and there is even a softpoint system. I call it softpoint as it isn't "hard" on restriction. More easier to swap this with that. Check out Mech Mortars and MRM and you can see each one mentions what it was meant to swap easily with. These are all nods toward the softpoint system aka customization.

Edited by Koniving, 11 April 2018 - 10:16 PM.


#50 Spare Parts Bin

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:57 PM

Poor Mercs make do with what is on hand lots of tanks ex.Galleon,wheeled vehicles ex. Hetzer,missle armed infantry,helicopters, conventional fighters like the Mechbuster. SRM/LRM carriers, etc should be expected.

#51 Metus regem

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:05 PM

View PostSpare Parts Bin, on 11 April 2018 - 07:57 PM, said:

Poor Mercs make do with what is on hand lots of tanks ex.Galleon,wheeled vehicles ex. Hetzer,missle armed infantry,helicopters, conventional fighters like the Mechbuster. SRM/LRM carriers, etc should be expected.


The funny thing is, everything you just mentioned is down right deadly to mechs.... hell some thanks are better than mechs... just look at the Demolisher tanks, they are smaller and cheaper King Crabs....

#52 Koniving

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 10:58 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 11 April 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:


The funny thing is, everything you just mentioned is down right deadly to mechs.... hell some thanks are better than mechs... just look at the Demolisher tanks, they are smaller and cheaper King Crabs....


That's not mentioning the Demolisher's indirect fire capability with its AC/20s (in fluff). Chemjet Guns ftw.

#53 Karl Streiger

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:40 PM

not to mention the "dial the pain" ability of the binary propellant - Still I would not mount those guns on a Mech.
The binary propellant is complex and without cartridge its also much hotter.

#54 Leone

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 11:01 AM

Well, as for my group, my favourite 'last chance' was the venerable Motorcycle. The party (minus one mechwarrior who parked his mech on the resort's beach for style,) decided to rely on corporate provided security to protect their vehicles, (mixed lance, vehicles, one mech, with fighter support.) And this with one of the players commanding an infantry platoon who could've set up a guard detail.

So, after a few explosive charges, (couldn't sabotage the mech, due to placement in the open, was able to snipe the pilot whilst they climbed their mech though, who ran the mission seriously gutshot.) Gotta love mechwarrior, the RPG where making it to the mech is the point of the game. (Seriously, I warned 'em the casinos in the resort wanted their assistance an were paying their way due to the pirate's close ties with local criminal and black market elements.)

Anyways, they ended up buying up local dirtbikes, making a deal with a news company to borrow a news van for transport, just to get some of their pilots to the battlefield as infantry. Everyone was shocked when the pheonixhawk managed to pull off the victory due to some spot on piloting and superior tactical decisions. Infantry casualties were high.

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 12 April 2018 - 11:02 AM.


#55 Koniving

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 03:13 PM

Am somewhat reminded of Herzog Zwei. The motorcycle infantry. In a game where the man with boots on the ground determines who has the bases, the light and heavy tank, mobile SAM, turret, boat and supply vehicle determines the tactical advantage and the land-air transforming mech determines the placement and strategy as well as plays the unpredictable factor in the battle... Nothing ruins plans like the motorcycle infantry.

#56 Brain Cancer

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 04:27 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 11 April 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

The funny thing is, everything you just mentioned is down right deadly to mechs.... hell some thanks are better than mechs... just look at the Demolisher tanks, they are smaller and cheaper King Crabs....



There's a reason why what's good for the Battlemech goose isn't always good for the Tank Gander. Those BFGs are great, but woe to the Demolisher that eats an LB-X broadside and loses it's mobility in a single round, or combusts under a hail of inferno SRMs or the like. What tends to murder people with not-robot units is that they all have their own vulnerabilities, but people raised on a diet of nothing but Battlemech on Battlemech action often neglect these and suffer horribly for it.

#57 Koniving

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 04:41 PM

That's when you hope you are in a behemoth with a damn good gunner.
Posted Image
8 out of 9 mech killed in 40 seconds from being tracked. 450 out of 500 tons of enemy forces destroyed.

Whether true kill, mobility kill, or in one case atomized. Tank finally went down. Poor commando ally got off one volley and was obliterated.

#58 Metus regem

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 04:47 PM

View PostBrain Cancer, on 12 April 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:



There's a reason why what's good for the Battlemech goose isn't always good for the Tank Gander. Those BFGs are great, but woe to the Demolisher that eats an LB-X broadside and loses it's mobility in a single round, or combusts under a hail of inferno SRMs or the like. What tends to murder people with not-robot units is that they all have their own vulnerabilities, but people raised on a diet of nothing but Battlemech on Battlemech action often neglect these and suffer horribly for it.


Only because in the first iteration of TT they found tanks to be too good, so they had to nerf them into the ground, via the vechile crit table.

#59 Karl Streiger

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 04:36 AM

I think the main issue is that tanks, infantry and vtols use the same movement system as mechs - its good that Alpha Strike and Mechwarrior DarkAge change it to some extent.

from a different point of view - the Cluster ammunition being so great in "penetrating" doesn't make sense. I don't think that a 40mm HEDP would do so much harm to a MBTs tracks.

#60 Koniving

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 06:38 AM

Its because each individual shot has a chance separate from one another, where regular ACs only get a single chance at the roll.

I personally attribute it to the cluster-shot exploding like a cluster bomb's "blanket."

Rotary ACs have 6 chances, and thus they can crit fairly well too. But they have to check for hits each time when an LBX only has to do it once.

The vehicle crit system seems to favor mobility problems. But there's some advantages too, many pieces of equipment that would take several different slots per ton of equipment (such as ammunition) only consume a single slot. This lets you pack things on vehicles that just can't be done on mechs.

(Which you'll find numerous vehicles in the mission I described, on the defending side and with the invading force, should the raiding team succeed. If the raiding team fails, which is what was happening before I lost it all, they will be kinda screwed and left on their own in which case the survivors are going to be 'sold' back to the offending mercenary group. Assuming they will buy their people back.)

(Changed "they're" to they will so as to not imply they were already screwed just that they would be.)

Edited by Koniving, 13 April 2018 - 07:19 AM.






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