107 replies to this topic

[Horseman]

Pylorous, on 28 March 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

TBH, I had completely forgotten about the secondary crosshair .

Go into your options, set armlock to off by default. Then remap the Arm Lock button to Toggle Arm Lock (next mapping down). Your mech's arms track to targets basically immediately, and have a greater range of motion than your torso reticle on most chassis.
Takes some getting used to, but once you do you'll be much better at taking snap shots at targets (eg when brawling).

Edited by Horseman, 28 March 2018 - 10:33 PM.

[Pylorous]

More good tips, thanks! I tried out a few more mechs this morning, The Griffin was alright, but still felt pretty squishy. I did like how mobile it was, though I definitely got out of position and focused down one time. Seemed like a bad idea to put all 4 laser hardpoints in the arm on that mech though. I ended up a stick in another match. The Orion IIC was tougher, but with a LBX20 and 4 SRMs, I didn't have any range, and I got surrounded and ripped apart in a brawl. I tried the HIghlander and King Crab again, but I'm just not a huge fan of the assaults. Too slow, and they tend to draw fire from everyone.

[Horseman]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

I tried out a few more mechs this morning, The Griffin was alright, but still felt pretty squishy. I did like how mobile it was, though I definitely got out of position and focused down one time. Seemed like a bad idea to put all 4 laser hardpoints in the arm on that mech though. I ended up a stick in another match

Trial Griffin is another build that may have worked once but by modern standards ranges between suboptimal and terrible. The "meta" variant of that chassis is the GRF-2N, typically built with 4xSRM-6 (two in each side torso) and ECM.
After last year's Civil War update, you have the option to use a Light Fusion engine, which allows you to survive one side torso loss and continue fighting (whereas losing a torso with an IS XL kills you instantly).
Finally, on owned mechs you can spend points in the Skill Tree to gain armor and structure buffs and increase your survivability that way (on an IS medium that's up to 19% extra armor and 34% extra structure). Most of the armor buff can be obtained with barely 15 SP.

Quote

I tried the HIghlander and King Crab again, but I'm just not a huge fan of the assaults. Too slow, and they tend to draw fire from everyone.

Yes, assaults are pretty slow... I own a few KGCs and prefer using 350 (or better) rated engines. There are a few outlier assaults with mobility profiles of substantially lighter mechs... check out the Zeus (but be careful, the trial also has an XL in there).

Edited by Horseman, 29 March 2018 - 04:14 AM.

[Metus regem]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

More good tips, thanks! I tried out a few more mechs this morning, The Griffin was alright, but still felt pretty squishy. I did like how mobile it was, though I definitely got out of position and focused down one time. Seemed like a bad idea to put all 4 laser hardpoints in the arm on that mech though. I ended up a stick in another match. The Orion IIC was tougher, but with a LBX20 and 4 SRMs, I didn't have any range, and I got surrounded and ripped apart in a brawl. I tried the HIghlander and King Crab again, but I'm just not a huge fan of the assaults. Too slow, and they tend to draw fire from everyone.

The sad part is, a lot of trial mechs were not designed by the community with a thought to new players... they were often designed around the meta at the time, with advanced skills in mind. When I say advanced skills, I mean like using torso twisting to spread damage. They are often built around one or two weapon types, rather than giving new players a chance to get a feel for the various types.... yea I have issues with how the trial mechs came to be....

[Eisenhorne]

Metus regem, on 29 March 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

The sad part is, a lot of trial mechs were not designed by the community with a thought to new players... they were often designed around the meta at the time, with advanced skills in mind. When I say advanced skills, I mean like using torso twisting to spread damage. They are often built around one or two weapon types, rather than giving new players a chance to get a feel for the various types.... yea I have issues with how the trial mechs came to be....

They are far better than using stock mechs though. And focusing on one or two weapon types is better for new players, since they can get used to running mechs that are actually good (and not bracket build monstrosities) and it's less to focus on when you have weapons that work in sync.

[Tesunie]

Metus regem, on 29 March 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

The sad part is, a lot of trial mechs were not designed by the community with a thought to new players... they were often designed around the meta at the time, with advanced skills in mind. When I say advanced skills, I mean like using torso twisting to spread damage. They are often built around one or two weapon types, rather than giving new players a chance to get a feel for the various types.... yea I have issues with how the trial mechs came to be....

Actually, most of the Champion mechs have been designed by the community. However, the community being what it is, they all voted for the current meta mech used by the top playing crowds, without any consideration to the possible expanding game nor to how the builds operate without skills. So a lot of them ended up being less than new player friendly, especially as the game progressed and the meta changed.

Nearly every Champion mech represents an old super strong meta... However, I will comment that it's hard to predict the meta and/or make a mech that can survive a meta change. For example, every Champion mech was created before the existence of New Tech, so none of them had the option of MRMs, ATMs, LFEs, etc.

I'll say, from working with new players as often as I do, there are builds that I use and builds that "are current meta for the mech", that just don't work without skills in the mech and some specific skills learned by the player. For example, the Crab. I use 2 LLs and 4 ERMLs on mine. The meta is 5-6 MPL. Each runs far too hot with an un-skilled Crab for just about all new players (even I found them too hot when skills where turned off).

The Trial Crab is a triple LPL build, all one sided and has an XL engine... which makes the very durable Crab seem extra squishy (this was the voted on community made Champion). It beat out triple ERLL versions, 5-6 ML and MPL builds... and most of the community created Crabs had XL engines... and also did the typical higher tier player lack of AMS...


I could go on. But I think I'd just be side tracing the thread at that point...

[Metus regem]

Tesunie, on 29 March 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

Actually, most of the Champion mechs have been designed by the community. However, the community being what it is, they all voted for the current meta mech used by the top playing crowds, without any consideration to the possible expanding game nor to how the builds operate without skills. So a lot of them ended up being less than new player friendly, especially as the game progressed and the meta changed.

Nearly every Champion mech represents an old super strong meta... However, I will comment that it's hard to predict the meta and/or make a mech that can survive a meta change. For example, every Champion mech was created before the existence of New Tech, so none of them had the option of MRMs, ATMs, LFEs, etc.

I'll say, from working with new players as often as I do, there are builds that I use and builds that "are current meta for the mech", that just don't work without skills in the mech and some specific skills learned by the player. For example, the Crab. I use 2 LLs and 4 ERMLs on mine. The meta is 5-6 MPL. Each runs far too hot with an un-skilled Crab for just about all new players (even I found them too hot when skills where turned off).

The Trial Crab is a triple LPL build, all one sided and has an XL engine... which makes the very durable Crab seem extra squishy (this was the voted on community made Champion). It beat out triple ERLL versions, 5-6 ML and MPL builds... and most of the community created Crabs had XL engines... and also did the typical higher tier player lack of AMS...


I could go on. But I think I'd just be side tracing the thread at that point...

And that was my point, the Champion builds were built with a skill set in mind, that new players are likely to lack, how many new players do you see that log in for their first 25 games that know how to torso twist or how to properly manage heat... let alone know how to work around ghost heat.

Eisenhorne, on 29 March 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

They are far better than using stock mechs though. And focusing on one or two weapon types is better for new players, since they can get used to running mechs that are actually good (and not bracket build monstrosities) and it's less to focus on when you have weapons that work in sync.

Great job and good points, but you missed the core of my message, the current champion builds were built with skill sets in mind that new players are not likely to have.

Now where did I say that I recommend bracket builds or stock builds for new players? The dragon I showed was one that I currently use, but it is built with weapon synergy in mind from the UAC/10 and LL.



That all being said, I think it would do PGI and new players a world of good to have new trial mechs built by people that spend time working with new players, as they are likely to have a good idea of what skills a new player is likely to have.

[Koniving]

Eisenhorne, on 29 March 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

They are far better than using stock mechs though. And focusing on one or two weapon types is better for new players, since they can get used to running mechs that are actually good (and not bracket build monstrosities) and it's less to focus on when you have weapons that work in sync.

It depends. Stock mechs against what the game HAS become? **** yes. Compared to back when stock mechs were the norm, when the game wasn't so unfair against them? Then no, stock mechs were probably a fair bit better at the time.

2012.

Stock Centurion CN9-Ds. 3 or 4 of them. XL engines, 270 points of armor. Etc. There are many instances of then-and-still-meta SRM-6 Centurion boats, which have superior armor, superior endurance to damage (standard engines), and they're still slaughtered by these stock mechs, typically working separately (no real cohesion) in the same theater (until the Caustic map).

Though not my video, I was giving basic orders and among those trial CN9-Ds, and I am the dancing Cicada at the end.

(I never publically released the videos, mainly due to forgetting, but I did record all four matches and they have been on youtube for some time. I just dug them out for anyone whom would like to watch how 3 [and later 4] stock CN9-Ds wrecked everyone.)
Frozen City. Frozen City 2 River City And my personal favorite, Caustic Valley (a PPC-stalker, a meta 'meme' at the time, requested our aid.. Rewatching it, actually it was someone requested help against the enemy PPC Stalker, which in a cold environment could easily insta-kill an enemy every 30 or so seconds; under the conditions of a hot map it had a harder time. Later, the base requested our aid, so the entire time we felt like a Calvary party).

That said, stock mechs in what MWO has become... would be like punching MWO's Long Tom shells level of suicide.

Edited by Koniving, 29 March 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[Horseman]

Metus regem, on 29 March 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

That all being said, I think it would do PGI and new players a world of good to have new trial mechs built by people that spend time working with new players, as they are likely to have a good idea of what skills a new player is likely to have.

Agreed.

[Koniving]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

More good tips, thanks!

If you're on sooner than the 7:30 PM EST time you stated you'll be on, feel free to drop me a message on here or on Steam at Koniving.

I'll be jumping into matches periodically (as well as flipping through some new games I got between Steam and Origin). First true day off in 2+ weeks of constant overtime producing Laundry Carts for Disney (they never order less than 300, and this latest order was 800+, with 640 wanted by the end of the month which we finish today, but I have the luxury of taking the day off because...I'm getting 3 teeth pulled at 3:30 EST. ...yay. Better than pulling yet another 12 hour shift for the 16th day in a row. But man, dat paycheck.

[Leone]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

I tried the HIghlander and King Crab again, but I'm just not a huge fan of the assaults. Too slow, and they tend to draw fire from everyone.

There is a reason assaults and lights are not oft suggested for new players. They take an amount of map awareness and familiarity with the game to really shine. I'd suggest perusing my Assault Guide and trying to use the map awareness and control I talk about with heavies before moving back to assaults. They can be great fun once you've figured 'em out.

~Leone.

[Koniving]

Indeed.

From short question short answer, first page, the very first reply to the original post..
Under the update spoiler, under "Some Definitions.."

Koniving, on 02 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Updated: Tuesday December 31st, 2013.

(Snip)
Some Definitions
(snip)

• "To Commit" is a term that refers to engaging in a fight you cannot pull away from. With a single life this is important because once you commit that's it. Either you win or you die as the situation is impossible to escape from. Examples of usage: "Are we going to commit?" "Are you sure about this? We can't win. (response) It's too late we're committed." "I've got hostiles here. (Roger that, rendezvous with us and lure 'em.) No can do, I'm committed."
  
• "Going down" is the guaranteed losing form of "to commit." With enough experience you will know right away when there is nothing you can do and so reporting (on voice) that you are going down lets your comrades know that you cannot be rescued and that any attempt to do so will result in a Black Hawk Down scenario.

(Snip)

Those definitions were terms used early on by assault mechs, whom could be as slow as 30 odd kph at times in order to pack all the firepower and armor they could (before XL engines at a time of only standard heatsinks).
It accurately represents them today, as well. Once they commit completely they cannot stop, it is either they kill the enemy or they die as there is no other option once the point of no return is reached.

For anyone whom may not know, Black Hawk Down (or by Star Trek fans, Kobayashi Maru) is a scenario in which the fallen cannot be rescued, but the attempt is made anyway knowing that failure is over 90% guaranteed (in Kobayashi Maru officers in training know the scenario cannot be won, but the actual scenario dictates that the scenario be acted on with no prior knowledge, as such unlike Blackhawk Down the 'rescuers' do not know how suicidal the situation is until encountering it and cannot escape. In Blackhawk Down, the rescuers become aware of the impossible scenario from a position where abandonment of the mission is not only possible but ordered, and would be rescuers requested permission, were warned, and commenced with the attempted rescue anyway).

In both scenarios, minus Captain Kirk's cheating in Star Trek, all whom attempted the rescue die. This should capitalize how important "positioning" is, when you can know ahead of time (sometimes up to three minutes ahead of time) that you are screwed and there is possibly no way out. I advise "Seismic Sensors" on all assault mechs, personally. Cannot overstate its value.

Edited by Koniving, 29 March 2018 - 09:27 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

as others have said the comunity makes builds then votes on them, they become "champion" Mechs and get rotated in as trial Mechs, the majority usualy vote for the strongest build at the time, regardless of the fact that there is a good chance it will no longer be any good by the time it arives in game because things change

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

The Griffin was alright, but still felt pretty squishy.

a classic example, with a standard or Light engine the Griffin is one of the the tankiest medium Mechs, the reason for that is the Griffins shape and the fact that most models can go "deadside" meaning the vast majority of your firepower is on one side so you can sacrifice half the Mech without loosing much (if any) firepower, why is this usefull?
if damage passes through destroyed componant to hit an intact componant it is reduced by 60%, now with the shape of the Griffin your torsos are pretty effectively protected side on by the arms, so you can sacrifice the left arm, then anything hitting the "left arm" (which is just a few scraps of metal) only does 40% of its origional damage to the left torso, eventuraly you will also loose the left torso, at which point anything that passes through the destroyed torso is reduced by 60%, if damage hits both the destroyed arm and the destroyed torso it is reduced by 60% twice meaning only 16% of the origional damage reaches the CT.

so in a Griffin with a Standard or Light Fusion engine provided you remember to present the disposable side to the enemy you can take a lot more damage, in a Mech like this
https://mwo.smurfy-n...b2b3fd73b2793d9
it takes 54 damage to destroy the arm, then an additional 110 to get through the side torso, and an additional 182 to kill the CT, for a potential total of 337 damage to kill the Mech, you can kill a 100 ton Assualt Mech through the front CT with about 170 damage.

The way to use Mechs like that is fire then present your disposable "dead" side to the enemy so the componants you do not want take all the damage, then when the weapons are recharged/reloaded twist back and fire again, keep presenting your dead side until you are running out of armor on the center torso, only then start twisting the other way and sacrificing your weapons to keep you alive, however this does not work nearly as well if you cannot afford to loose a side torso like with an IS eXtra Light engine.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 29 March 2018 - 09:25 AM.

[Throe]

Quote

My first question is pretty obvious, what mech would you guys recommend I start with? Additionally, how often do the trial mechs change? I'd love to give a bushwhacker a try, or jump in some of the other heavies, but I don't want to spend all my C-bills just to find out I don't like the mech.

I'd recommend a Summoner. It's got excellent mobility, which will help with the inevitable mistakes you'll make as you learn the maps and strategies. It's got jump jets, which will again, help with inevitable mistakes you'll make as you learn the maps and strategies(but can also be used to access terrain which simply isn't an option any other way). And it's a Heavy, which means it's got a great mix of firepower and armor.

The trial 'Mechs haven't changed in far too long. They change whenever PGI decides they should.

I love my Bushwhackers, but I really only use them in Scouting missions in Faction Play.

[Pylorous]

Koniving, on 29 March 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

If you're on sooner than the 7:30 PM EST time you stated you'll be on, feel free to drop me a message on here or on Steam at Koniving.

Can't send you a message on the forum for some reason. See you in game soon I hope.

[Koniving]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Can't send you a message on the forum for some reason. See you in game soon I hope.

Yep. Am on now, sorry about the delay. My Toddler was watching Pocoyo on my computer.

[Pylorous]

Koniving, on 29 March 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Yep. Am on now, sorry about the delay. My Toddler was watching Pocoyo on my computer.

Friend request sent in game and on steam

[Pylorous]

Why do none of the trial mechs have AMS? Its crazy how much I'm getting ripped up by missile boats

[Koniving]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Why do none of the trial mechs have AMS? Its crazy how much I'm getting ripped up by missile boats

Sorry got distracted, booting up now.
"High end players" think that LRMs are a useless joke weapon, and chastize players that use them (because they get killed by the LRMs...)
Though they will claim that those are wasted tons and terrible weapons..

So if "no one would ever use LRMs"... why carry AMS?

[Koniving]

Seems there's an issue that needs to be brought to PGI's attention... if players can't see themselves in groups in order to ready up.