352 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 07 April 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

That...is an entirely separate subject. Weird Solaris contradictions have nothing to do with ranged poke lights in other modes.

But the entire history of MWO is full of even worse contradictions.

Edited by Mystere, 08 April 2018 - 06:48 AM.

[Mystere]

Dogstar, on 08 April 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

You really should understand this usage of the word exploit.

A lot of people here would agree with me that your statement above applies more to you.

[STEF_]

Cathy, on 08 April 2018 - 04:01 AM, said:

There are more potatoes that are going to become wales, than comp players that usually only buy mechs likely to perform well, so why is this surprising.

It is surprising because it's very clear from years that balancing by potatoes makes the game less and less fun.
Which is, imo, also the reason why playerbase numbers and sales are not so "encouraging".

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2018 - 12:29 AM, said:

Well yeah boating is the main issue, but also the weapon system themselves have mechanics that gets out of control when boated. PGI needs to implement a penalty of sorts on such builds, but that will certainly piss off a lot of players.

and this is the reason why MG should not be nerfed.
Also, those mechs that can boat mg are very weaks ones.

Sadly pgi listens to potatoes and crying babies, and that's the only reason why mgs are going to be touched, lights nerfed, etc.etc.

And the truth is: all of this will be useless, because good pilots will always be better than potatoes.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 April 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

It is surprising because it's very clear from years that balancing by potatoes makes the game less and less fun.
Which is, imo, also the reason why playerbase numbers and sales are not so "encouraging".

Potatoes only want to keep doing more of the same, then when it doesn't work they definitely don't want to improve, so generally they just leave the game and go onto the next. Ever catering to potatoes usually just is wasted effort. You nerf one thing that kills them then another thing kills them, you nerf that and the next thing kills them, all the while you're bleeding out players who were having fun using whatever was unjustly nerfed. So in the end you've run off all the normal players and bored the comp players to death and the potatoes just leave after there's nothing left to nerf.

Its like a parasite, they add nothing to the game and run off people. Does anyone ever read the amount of people who complain of "bad teams" on forums. Talk of people who just sit there and get shot and never respond, teammates who'll watch you die and just walk away, players who make you think that bots are playing because your faith in humanity hasn't dropped far enough yet. Its all common stuff we hear about in this game.

[Spheroid]

Seems strange that they would nerf all machine guns before the Flea ships. Does not such a move lower potential sales?

I am curious to see what form the nerf takes.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Spheroid, on 08 April 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

Seems strange that they would nerf all machine guns before the Flea ships. Does not such a move lower potential sales?

I am curious to see what form the nerf takes.

Bad balance decisions in general lower potential sales.

[Spheroid]

Just introduce scaling spread as a function of the number of mg. Start at six and ramp up to ten plus. I don't see why "ghost spread" can't be a thing. It would be a shame to utterly destroy the utility of triple and quad secondaries for all other mechs.

Edited by Spheroid, 08 April 2018 - 08:21 AM.

[Relishcakes]

I dont even use machine guns and i know that this is terrible. this is literally why we cant have nice things! dear potatoes in T1...******* why?

[El Bandito]

Stefka Kerensky, on 08 April 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

And the truth is: all of this will be useless, because good pilots will always be better than potatoes.

That much is certain, but I'd rather fight the pre-CSPL nerf Cheetah than a MG boating Clan Light. Due to my oft-mentioned "fun factor".

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2018 - 08:33 AM.

[Scyther]

All the yadda yadda about 'balance by potatoes', 'whiners got it nerfed' is foolish.
1) PGI doesn't pay attention to the forums.
2) There are 10x as many 'potatoes' in the player base as 'leets'.
3) There are likely 5x as many players in tiers 3-5 as tier 1-2.
4) It's been pointed out that Chris was looking at MGs long before 'the whining' started.
5) Knowledgeable players who did the math pointed out how deadly 'massed MGs' would be even before some of these mechs were in the game.

Players talk about the 'whining potatoes' (which isn't even a factor to PGI) and yet they are whining just as hard that their new toys are being taken away.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys, but the stats speak for themselves:

IS
LCT-1V ...... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/200+cool 154kph/0jj
SDR-5K ..... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/300+cool 135kph/6jj
OSR-1P ..... 4B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .... 6.92dps/163cool . 130kph/4jj
UM-R60 ..... 4B(RA) .... 2E(LA) ..... 6.93dps/83cool .... 97kph/3jj (2xMPulse since tonnage allowed)
EMBER(H).. 4B(LT/RT) 4E(LA/RA) 9.60dps/96cool .. 118kph/5jj
HUGINN(H) 4B(LA/RA) 2M(LT/RT) 9.73dps/100cool 130kph/2jj (2xSRM4 w/2.5 tons ammo)
-----------------------------

CLAN
PIR-1 ........ 12B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) .. 14.5dps/116cool 146kph/0jj
PIR-A ......... 8B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) ... 10.89dps/77cool 142kph/0jj
CIPHER(H) .. 6B(LT/RT) 9E(6 in LT/RT) .. 9.22dps/67cool 146kph/0jj (6xC-ER-MicroL in torso, 3E unused)
MLX-G ........ 8B(LA/RA) 4E(LA/RA/RT) .. 10.98dps/93cool 113kph/6jj (4xC-ER-MicroL)
ACH-E ........ 6B(LA/RA) 3E(LT/RT) .......... 9.46dps/72cool 130kph/6jj (3xC-SmPulse)
FURY(H) ...... 6B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .............. 8.98dps/83cool 139kph/4jj (2xC-MedPulse)

Clan/IS imbalance? ✔
High damage with little to no heat issues? ✔
Extremely fast mechs with hit reg issues? ✔
Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔

If you didn't see this coming then you've obviously been playing some other game for the last 4 years.

Note:
-All mechs with max armor, best upgrades (Endo, Ferro, DHS), XL Engines, JJ where available.
-Standard machine guns with 3 tons ammo, no AMS, Energy weapons with best match to MG range
(SMPulse for IS, C-HvySml for Clan, except where noted)
-Some armor reduced to fit the last ton, usually 4-8 points off head.
-Used Smurfy for DPS, Cooling Efficiency, Speed numbers.

Edited by MadBadger, 08 April 2018 - 09:20 AM.

[Nightbird]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

All the yadda yadda about 'balance by potatoes', 'whiners got it nerfed' is foolish.
1) PGI doesn't pay attention to the forums.
2) There are 10x as many 'potatoes' in the player base as 'leets'.
3) There are likely 5x as many players in tiers 3-5 as tier 1-2.
4) It's been pointed out that Chris was looking at MGs long before 'the whining' started.
5) Knowledgeable players who did the math pointed out how deadly 'massed MGs' would be even before some of these mechs were in the game.

Players talk about the 'whining potatoes' (which isn't even a factor to PGI) and yet they are whining just as hard that their new toys are being taken away.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys, but the stats speak for themselves:

IS
LCT-1V ...... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/200+cool 154kph/0jj
SDR-5K ..... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/300+cool 135kph/6jj
OSR-1P ..... 4B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .... 6.92dps/163cool . 130kph/4jj
UM-R60 ..... 4B(RA) .... 2E(LA) ..... 6.93dps/83cool .... 97kph/3jj (2xMPulse since tonnage allowed)
EMBER(H).. 4B(LT/RT) 4E(LA/RA) 9.60dps/96cool .. 118kph/5jj
HUGINN(H) 4B(LA/RA) 2M(LT/RT) 9.73dps/100cool 130kph/2jj (2xSRM4 w/2.5 tons ammo)
-----------------------------

CLAN
PIR-1 ........ 12B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) .. 14.5dps/116cool 146kph/0jj
PIR-A ......... 8B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) ... 10.89dps/77cool 142kph/0jj
CIPHER(H) .. 6B(LT/RT) 9E(6 in LT/RT) .. 9.22dps/67cool 146kph/0jj (6xC-ER-MicroL in torso, 3E unused)
MLX-G ........ 8B(LA/RA) 4E(LA/RA/RT) .. 10.98dps/93cool 113kph/6jj (4xC-ER-MicroL)
ACH-E ........ 6B(LA/RA) 3E(LT/RT) .......... 9.46dps/72cool 130kph/6jj (3xC-SmPulse)
FURY(H) ...... 6B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .............. 8.98dps/83cool 139kph/4jj (2xC-MedPulse)

Clan/IS imbalance? ✔
High damage with little to no heat issues? ✔
Extremely fast mechs with hit reg issues? ✔
Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔

If you didn't see this coming then you've obviously been playing some other game for the last 4 years.

Note:
-All mechs with max armor, best upgrades (Endo, Ferro, DHS), XL Engines, JJ where available.
-Standard machine guns with 3 tons ammo, no AMS, Energy weapons with best match to MG range
(SMPulse for IS, C-HvySml for Clan, except where noted)
-Some armor reduced to fit the last ton, usually 4-8 points off head.
-Used Smurfy for DPS, Cooling Efficiency, Speed numbers.

You've wasted your time. This is all a pointless comparison. On paper, the DPS is high, but when you need to run in under 100 meters of your target and face stare them to death, if they or their teammates are playing any sort of attention, is basically a suicide run.

[Scyther]

-These mechs all work just fine at 150m. Better closer, of course.
-If you are face staring targets (from other than the rear arc) while running 130+ kph mechs, many with JJs, then you probably aren't using your maneuverability and mini-map very efficiently.
-My time isn't wasted, since the nerf is already on the way. I'm simply outlining the actual issue to all those frustrated MGers crying foul for various reasons that don't even apply.
-Points 2) and 3) are there to remind people why you don't balance a game around less than 10% of your player base.
-If they were suicide to use, even PGI wouldn't be rebalancing them. Try again.

Edited by MadBadger, 08 April 2018 - 10:03 AM.

[Nightbird]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

-These mechs all work just fine at 150m. Better closer, of course.
-If you are face staring mechs in 130+ kph mechs, many with JJs, then you probably aren't using your maneuverability and mini-map very efficiently.
-My time isn't wasted, since the nerf is already on the way. I'm simply outlining the actual issue to all those frustrated MGers crying foul for various reasons that don't even apply.
-Points 2) and 3) are there to remind people why you don't balance a game around less than 10% of your player base.
-If they were suicide to use, even PGI wouldn't be rebalancing them. Try again.

You didn't list the one reason that caused the nerf, crit damage, and you haven't played a game since season 13?

[Scyther]

Reading comprehension ftw:
"Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔"

Your other point is irrelevant. The fact that you needed to look up my stats to see if you could ad-hominem plain and simple facts rather than reply to them is kinda funny though.

Edited by MadBadger, 08 April 2018 - 10:08 AM.

[Nightbird]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

Reading comprehension ftw:
"Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔"

Your other point is irrelevant.

Where's the math?

[VonBruinwald]

Mystere, on 08 April 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

A lot of people here would agree with me that your statement above applies more to you.

Sorry Myst, but I'm behind Dogstar on this one.

[Scyther]

@Nightbird:

If you don't understand the math of how the crit damage multipliers work, a fairly good explanation is here:
https://mwomercs.com...-structure-too/

I also already linked the MG-Analysis thread in an earlier post.

However the numbers I posted are simply normal, base damage, and do not take into account the multipliers that apply once armor is gone. With the crit multipliers added in, the effective DPS reaches the levels which are most likely the cause of the current round of nerfage.

Note: I personally neither use nor worry about machine guns on lights. That doesn't prevent discussing the topic as opposed to my personal likes or dislikes.

Edited by MadBadger, 08 April 2018 - 10:27 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

Reading comprehension ftw:
"Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔"

Your other point is irrelevant. The fact that you needed to look up my stats to see if you could ad-hominem plain and simple facts rather than reply to them is kinda funny though.

Well, he has a point, if you haven't played since season 13 then you haven't even played against any of the MG lights. They require that high DPS for a reason, it comes with the cost of constant face time, short range, spread, and high ammo consumption. Leaving it on par compared to laser based lights.

[Nightbird]

Exploit isn't a bad word like some players make it out it be. Saying a person has many exploits is high praise.

There ARE players that consider any sort of min-maxing that kills their mech build quickly to be exploiting, but I disagree. It doesn't qualify to be an exploit to win against them.

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

@Nightbird:

If you don't understand the math of how the crit damage multipliers work, a fairly good explanation is here:
https://mwomercs.com...-structure-too/

I also already linked the MG-Analysis thread in an earlier post.

However the numbers I posted are simply normal, base damage, and do not take into account the multipliers that apply once armor is gone. With the multipliers added in, the effective DPS reaches the levels which are most likely the cause of the current round of nerfage.

Note: I personally neither use nor worry about machine guns on lights. That doesn't prevent discussing the topic as opposed to my personal likes or dislikes.

No one thinks the DPS on the Piranha is high, people think the DPS against exposed components is too high. Going over base DPS to the extent you did is where you tripped up.

Edited by Nightbird, 08 April 2018 - 10:30 AM.