60 replies to this topic

[Grus]

GBxGhostRyder, on 09 April 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

Well this is what PGI and the community gets after 5 years of letting 12 man comp teams seal club and slaughter pugs and casual players in FP this was foretold 4 years ago when many tried to tell PGI to split the queues in FP before the game mode died and players left the game.

Hey hey hey! there are plenty of time us non comp 12 mans seal club tyvm!

[Throe]

Grus, on 08 April 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

My personal fav is when I see guys first wave 65 tonne it up and don't have a single assault in their line up. I'm fine with that if your good... but when you struggle to brake 500 damage over 4 mech's that's a problem.. stay in QP until you have atlest 1 non lrm assault.

Last FP match I played, I kind of guessed we would get rolled, as a group of obvious PUGs vs a 10 man on the other side.

Before the drop actually started, I politely requested in <All> chat that if the enemy team was beating us severely, that they please go for the objective. There appeared to be some disagreement among them in the response, with at least one of them offering to team kill any others who went for the objective. While I found this odd, I didn't comment, because it was none of my business(I was surprised they even spoke about in <All> chat).

Match started out normal enough, it was Forest Colony, and we were on the beach side, so we moved up to the archway and set up some firing lines. Shortly thereafter everything went to hell in a handbasket. They pushed directly under the arch and quickly knocked down most of our first line Assaults. We got a few kills in return, but the damage had been done. By the time they had pushed into our base(Incursion), we had half a wave on second 'Mechs, and barely managed to shut them down. Their second wave didn't have as much trouble with us. I brought my three identical Summoners that match, with 2xHLL, 4xERML each, and all three of them were destroyed, leaving me in my ACH, which barely survived because they stayed true to their word.

In the end, I wound up with ~750 damage total, barely surviving in my ACH, my last 'Mech. They won by objective, with I believe right around 26 kills. They really steamrolled us badly, with the match only lasting about 5 minutes. Seemed to be an uneventful match, but I was grateful for their mercy.

I always bring my three identical Summoners to Faction Play matches lately, it's really *not* a great build for brawling, which was 99% of this match, and I *still* managed to reach ~750 damage that match. I was very close to, if not top damage for my team.

All that to say, I don't usually bring any Assault 'Mechs to FP, but I don't think for a moment that it's a strict requirement. I would agree that sub-500 damage matches are a liability to have on your team though. I usually never have any trouble hitting 1000+, but even that is a tough target to reach when your team is rolled so quickly.

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have mentioned anything, and they probably would've approached with a bit more restraint, but judging by that outcome, I feel like that would've only delayed the ultimate loss. Given a choice, I'd prefer a quick loss over a slow one where we get farmed to the last 'Mech. I despise kill farmers, unless it's one of the few situations where killing all of your opponents is the only way to win the match(Skirmish, or defending on Invasion).

[Grus]

Throe, on 10 April 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Last FP match I played, I kind of guessed we would get rolled, as a group of obvious PUGs vs a 10 man on the other side.

Before the drop actually started, I politely requested in <All> chat that if the enemy team was beating us severely, that they please go for the objective. There appeared to be some disagreement among them in the response, with at least one of them offering to team kill any others who went for the objective. While I found this odd, I didn't comment, because it was none of my business(I was surprised they even spoke about in <All> chat).

Match started out normal enough, it was Forest Colony, and we were on the beach side, so we moved up to the archway and set up some firing lines. Shortly thereafter everything went to hell in a handbasket. They pushed directly under the arch and quickly knocked down most of our first line Assaults. We got a few kills in return, but the damage had been done. By the time they had pushed into our base(Incursion), we had half a wave on second 'Mechs, and barely managed to shut them down. Their second wave didn't have as much trouble with us. I brought my three identical Summoners that match, with 2xHLL, 4xERML each, and all three of them were destroyed, leaving me in my ACH, which barely survived because they stayed true to their word.

In the end, I wound up with ~750 damage total, barely surviving in my ACH, my last 'Mech. They won by objective, with I believe right around 26 kills. They really steamrolled us badly, with the match only lasting about 5 minutes. Seemed to be an uneventful match, but I was grateful for their mercy.

I always bring my three identical Summoners to Faction Play matches lately, it's really *not* a great build for brawling, which was 99% of this match, and I *still* managed to reach ~750 damage that match. I was very close to, if not top damage for my team.

All that to say, I don't usually bring any Assault 'Mechs to FP, but I don't think for a moment that it's a strict requirement. I would agree that sub-500 damage matches are a liability to have on your team though. I usually never have any trouble hitting 1000+, but even that is a tough target to reach when your team is rolled so quickly.

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have mentioned anything, and they probably would've approached with a bit more restraint, but judging by that outcome, I feel like that would've only delayed the ultimate loss. Given a choice, I'd prefer a quick loss over a slow one where we get farmed to the last 'Mech. I despise kill farmers, unless it's one of the few situations where killing all of your opponents is the only way to win the match(Skirmish, or defending on Invasion).

do that same build with HBR's and put that tonnage to a assault. add a PIR for a light and you'll be able to bring a fairly large assault to the field. its a numbers game. if you have a wave of hp vs lower hp and everything else being equal the lower hp will lose.

[Throe]

Grus, on 10 April 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

do that same build with HBR's and put that tonnage to a assault. add a PIR for a light and you'll be able to bring a fairly large assault to the field. its a numbers game. if you have a wave of hp vs lower hp and everything else being equal the lower hp will lose.

Explain how I buy a Piranha for CBills and I'll get right on top of that.

Without the Piranha, you're looking at taking 3 Summoners vs 2 HBRs + a Gargoyle. For one thing, I don't gain any HP there. I just shift it from the HBRs to the Gargoyle. And all three of those 'Mechs are less agile than the Summoner, and can't jump. And then, the Gargoyle actually has *less* payload tonnage than the Summoner, unless I drop a significant amount of armor. In either case, I've lost the numbers game straight out of the 'Mech Lab, in almost every category.

I can think of a couple of other options here which could be an improvement even without a Piranha, but the bottom line still becomes the fact that I don't own all 'Mechs, so I can't just pick whatever I want. I'll probably try something similar after the Piranha becomes available though. It'll give me some options I don't currently have, for a great price point. Too bad it's already got a nerf scheduled.

[Eisenhorne]

Throe, on 10 April 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

I despise kill farmers, unless it's one of the few situations where killing all of your opponents is the only way to win the match(Skirmish, or defending on Invasion).

Problem is that there is no incentive to play objective, and huge rewards to kill farm. In any game I play, I'm taking it to 48 mechs. It's better for both teams. The losing team has more chances to score points by killing us, and we get more by killing you. Ending the game early is just bad for everyone.

[Throe]

Eisenhorne, on 11 April 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

... It's better for both teams. ... Ending the game early is just bad for everyone.

Not really. That time you spend hunting down every last 'Mech isn't very rewarding on a time/reward analysis.

For the winners: Compare a 20 minute match with 48 kills and nothing else to a ~10 minute match with ~30 kills *and* an objective victory. It's pretty easy to see the shorter match is more rewarding. Maybe you just get slightly more kills on a regular basis, making it worth it for you personally, and you'd prefer everyone participate willingly in your selfishness.

For the losers, a shorter duration loss is preferable to one that is drawn out for no logical reason. It allows everyone to move on to another match that much sooner. The extra 10 minutes you spend exhausting all the explosions available to you is time everyone could've spent finding another, potentially more rewarding and certainly more fun, match. Not to mention that last guy who literally can't even get a shot off before being popped like a dirty pimple.

Don't get me wrong. I don't give up when chocolate starfish like you try to ruin my day. But that doesn't mean I like your logically flawed analysis of the situation.

Even if it *was* way better, you'd be pointing to game design and saying it gives you an incentive to be an Oscar Meyer because the rewards are better that way. Bologna. You can choose to take the high road.

[Eisenhorne]

Throe, on 11 April 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

Not really. That time you spend hunting down every last 'Mech isn't very rewarding on a time/reward analysis.

For the winners: Compare a 20 minute match with 48 kills and nothing else to a ~10 minute match with ~30 kills *and* an objective victory. It's pretty easy to see the shorter match is more rewarding. Maybe you just get slightly more kills on a regular basis, making it worth it for you personally, and you'd prefer everyone participate willingly in your selfishness.

If it's truly a one sided farming stomp, it will not take 10 extra minutes to win the game. If, say, on Siege, you get pushed back to your drop zone without killing a single mech, and they set up right outside the drop zone shooting in, it will add like 5 extra minutes to kill everything. Most games (even most pug games) aren't this one sided though. Normally, the attackers push in, kill your first wave while losing a handful themselves, then are taken down eventually by the second wave. Sure, they could end the game early by shooting gens. But why? Unless they lost nothing in that first attack, odds are they had fun, and at least some of your team had fun.

Throe, on 11 April 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

For the losers, a shorter duration loss is preferable to one that is drawn out for no logical reason. It allows everyone to move on to another match that much sooner. The extra 10 minutes you spend exhausting all the explosions available to you is time everyone could've spent finding another, potentially more rewarding and certainly more fun, match. Not to mention that last guy who literally can't even get a shot off before being popped like a dirty pimple.

Consider it often takes 10-15 minutes to get into the lobby, the opponent team to form, to set your drop deck, and to load into the game. Its not a simple matter of finding another match, it just takes a long time to get ANY match. I can also speak as a loser, because I do pug FP's sometimes if nobody from my unit / friends list is playing. Unless the enemy team is literally 12-0 on wave 1 and have nothing but fresh mechs sitting camping our drop zone, I have fun. If we're losing, well whatever, I'll get my damage in and I'll just blame random chance for giving me worse teammates than the enemy had. It's fine. I've had games where my team loses and I still get 2k+ damage. It's fun. I'd hate for the enemy to end it early out of some misguided attempt at sparing my feelings or something. And even if my team is getting COMPLETELY rolled, and it's no fun, at least it will be over soon. Just suicide your mech out of the drop zone into the waiting enemy firing line, it costs you like 5 minutes. No biggie.

Throe, on 11 April 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I don't give up when chocolate starfish like you try to ruin my day. But that doesn't mean I like your logically flawed analysis of the situation.

Even if it *was* way better, you'd be pointing to game design and saying it gives you an incentive to be an Oscar Meyer because the rewards are better that way. Bologna. You can choose to take the high road.

At the end of the day, you do not get a say in this. Because your team lost. If the winners wanna take it to 48 kills, it's not an indicator of poor sportsmanship or them "not taking the high road". There are plenty of players that can have fun despite being on a losing team (usually). The in-game rewards are substantially higher for killing all mechs, and finishing the game fast and getting another one is demonstrably less efficient than taking a few extra minutes to get the most out of each game, given the time between games. If you're on the winning team, and you insist on shooting the generators to "end it fast and take the high road", if your entire team disagrees I'd say it's you being a poor sport, not doing what your team wants. I guarantee that at least some on the enemy team will want the chance to fight you with every mech they have as well.

[Lily from animove]

I do whatever I want, you are not my dad

-random pugger.

[Wild PUG]

Rawr i do things my way rawr

I gon kik ur arse m9
Rawr



U no tel ME wat to do rawr

[Throe]

Eisenhorne, on 11 April 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

If it's truly a one sided farming stomp, it will not take 10 extra minutes to win the game. If, say, on Siege, you get pushed back to your drop zone without killing a single mech, and they set up right outside the drop zone shooting in, it will add like 5 extra minutes to kill everything.

Yes, it frequently does take them an extra 10 minutes to win the game when they don't go for the objective, because there's frequently someone who wants to preserve his precious K/D ratio, and refuses to fight. It doesn't seem to matter that doing so is against the rules. There's no way to report someone honestly for non-participation by avoidance of the enemy anyway. The only two options to report Non-Participation are AFK and Suiciding.

Eisenhorne said:

Consider it often takes 10-15 minutes to get into the lobby...

No it doesn't, because if the match maker takes that long to form me into a team, the FP population is obviously too low, and I'll just go play QP. I've waited that long for a FP match maybe 6 times since Community Warfare was first released. Lately, with the combined queues, at peak play times, it takes a couple of minutes to get a match, at worst. I've even had matches launch all the way in by the time I came back from taking a piss. Maybe you're just unfortunate to live in a time zone and have a schedule that prevents you from playing during peak times. Don't take it out on everyone else, ok.

Eisenhorne said:

Just suicide your mech out of the drop zone into the waiting enemy firing line, it costs you like 5 minutes. No biggie.

Suicide is against the Code of Conduct. So you're taking it past poor-sportsmanship, and encouraging folks to break the rules. No. Even if it wasn't against the rules, I already told you, I don't give up just because the enemy team wants to be poor sports.

Eisenhorne said:

At the end of the day, you do not get a say in this.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm having a say in this right now. It's what the forums are here for. Tough.

Eisenhorne said:

Because your team lost.

I would agree with this sentiment if this was a real war, because history is written by the victors, but this isn't a real war. Every match in MWO is a friendly competition, essentially isolated to itself(the map-based FP meta-game is largely a joke at this point). In friendly competition, the competitors are all better off if they hold to a minimum standard of behavior. IF the developers didn't want players going for the objectives, Faction Play would be nothing more than 12 v 12 Skirmish with 3 respawns per player, which would be boring.

Eisenhorne said:

There are plenty of players that can have fun despite being on a losing team (usually).

Yeah, and as I've stated, I'm one of them. I won't let bad behavior ruin my day, but I still despise it.

Eisenhorne said:

...if your entire team disagrees I'd say it's you being a poor sport, not doing what your team wants

Playing the objectives put in place by the developers can't ever be considered poor sportsmanship. Like I said before, if that was the case, there woudn't *be* any objectives.

Eisenhorne said:

I guarantee that at least some on the enemy team will want the chance to fight you with every mech they have as well.

You're circling back around on your own logic here by suggesting that your enemy has a say in this when they're losing.... interesting.

[Eisenhorne]

I didn't mean suicide as in blow yourself up. I meant suicide as in how most people play this game anyway, just charge into the enemy lines and try to take one with you. If they're camping your spawn, that's a fair game. When I said 10-15 minutes, I meant to search for a match, get into the lobby, load into the match, etc. All the stuff that goes along with a game. It's not a quick process.

Doing your own thing instead of doing what the team wants is always poor sportsmanship, regardless of what "intent" you may think developers have. You don't know their thought process, or how they want you to play the game. IMO the objectives are there to force a point for players to fight over, otherwise maybe one side would just camp a defensive position. Who's to say who's right?

My last point, I'm not saying that the enemy has a say in how you play the game. Just that some of them would appreciate it continuing a bit.

[MischiefSC]

Fight to 48 is always a better payout for everyone. However there's also always players who would rather get paid less and fight less than play out a match.

Simple reality is that if you play aggressive on a loss, push out into the other team and blaze of glory it you'll make way more cbills, LP st al but a lot of players literally would rather disconnect than get in a hard fight or play aggressive.

Which, to be blunt, is why they lose a lot of the time. Aggression wins matches. That doesn't mean suicide rushes solo in to firing lines but it does mean always moving up, shooting first and shooting often and playing at the front.

People who play super passive or always from the back, even if they're using pug armor to farm decent damage are going to drive way more losses than wins and as such make less overall. The problem is not and has never been people playing as a team in a game designed 100% around team work and playing in a team of 12 v team of 12. It'sthat there isn't a good way to weed the cowardly terribads out no any way to force people who consistently take bad mechs and make bad choices to take good mechs and make good choices. They will always sandbag their teams which makes the 11 people stuck with them dissatisfied and always leave their teams disadvantaged against teams that take decent mechs and make good choices.

No good way to set a functional bat to keep them out without blocking a lot of other players who can reasonably contribute to FW.

You are always on a team in FW. Team of 12 or team of 4. There is no "solo" in FW. Just good teammates who communicate and play as a team and bad teammates who don't.

[Leone]

GBxGhostRyder, on 09 April 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

Well this is what PGI and the community gets after 5 years of letting 12 man comp teams seal club and slaughter pugs and casual players in FP this was foretold 4 years ago when many tried to tell PGI to split the queues in FP before the game mode died and players left the game.

*Sigh*

"Only you can prevent your drop Zone from being overrun!" This message brought to you by Smokey the Mechwarrior.

Lay the blame were it lies, rather'n looking for scapegoats.

~Leone.

[El Bandito]

Even worse are players who DC immediately after seeing 12-man (MS) on the other side.

[Asym]

What EL? That cannot be??? Gee, I wonder why??

Not matter mate; the 120 players that play FP can have it all to yourselves to farm, club, roll, stomp and exploit every possible nuance available.... Have at it. Please, have a blast...

The other, lets say as a wag, the 600 that left FP en masse applaud your efforts to confirm what the video game industry has known about for a while now: that teams with more than 4 players gets very toxic very quickly (compounding of negative social attributes in closed environments that reward anti-social behaviors (i.e. meritocracy))... Wonder why Solaris 1x1/2x2 and MW5's limit of..................four??? Hmmmmmm....??? coincidence...

You reap what you sow..... Otherwise, there would be teams all over the place chomping to get in there; and, what do we have now: ghost drops, entire teams that have left the game and a barren mode where everyone other than the 120 simply won't go.....and, when they do try FP..........someone earlier alluded to that experience. Good luck.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Asym, on 16 April 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

What EL? That cannot be??? Gee, I wonder why??

Not matter mate; the 120 players that play FP can have it all to yourselves to farm, club, roll, stomp and exploit every possible nuance available.... Have at it. Please, have a blast...

The other, lets say as a wag, the 600 that left FP en masse applaud your efforts to confirm what the video game industry has known about for a while now: that teams with more than 4 players gets very toxic very quickly (compounding of negative social attributes in closed environments that reward anti-social behaviors (i.e. meritocracy))... Wonder why Solaris 1x1/2x2 and MW5's limit of..................four??? Hmmmmmm....??? coincidence...

You reap what you sow..... Otherwise, there would be teams all over the place chomping to get in there; and, what do we have now: ghost drops, entire teams that have left the game and a barren mode where everyone other than the 120 simply won't go.....and, when they do try FP..........someone earlier alluded to that experience. Good luck.

You keep spouting this crap. You keep saying its the players who are responsible for mwos downfall. You keep saying that only 600 people ever played CW regularly. [Redacted]

My friends list with 2000 some names disagrees. It tell's a story of units. Groups people playing with each other. Getting along and having fun. I was a faction hub commander for 3 years. In that time I can only think of 2 circumstances of toxic behavior that had to be dealt with. In quickplay and group queue however. Also know as pug cancer, nascar, i do what i want, anti social paradise. I hear all kinds of toxic ****.

Mwo isnt dying because of organized units. Its dying because of solo rambo useless complain about everything get there way and still get rekt potatos. The solo player has long been know as the bane and the rot of any team based online game.

[Eisenhorne]

Johnathan Tanner, on 16 April 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

Mwo isnt dying because of organized units. Its dying because of solo rambo useless complain about everything get there way and still get rekt potatos. The solo player has long been know as the bane and the rot of any team based online game.

Sad fact is most solo players are just straight up BAD. There is no excuse to put up less than 1,000 damage over four mechs, even if you're fighting an organized team. Just drop a strike with each mech, get a few shots, and bam, you're at 1k damage. Every match I drop in though, I see at least 2-3 guys doing like 400 damage total. Like... what the hell? At least TRY to play conservatively? Maybe don't just run straight into an enemy firing line? It's insane.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Eisenhorne, on 16 April 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

Sad fact is most solo players are just straight up BAD. There is no excuse to put up less than 1,000 damage over four mechs, even if you're fighting an organized team. Just drop a strike with each mech, get a few shots, and bam, you're at 1k damage. Every match I drop in though, I see at least 2-3 guys doing like 400 damage total. Like... what the hell? At least TRY to play conservatively? Maybe don't just run straight into an enemy firing line? It's insane.

I know. I looked that guys stats up. I was trying to be tactful. But in this day and age 1k isnt even towing the line any more. I kinda think basic contribution happens aroung 1.6 these days.

Eisenhorne, on 16 April 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

Maybe don't just run straight into an enemy firing line? It's insane.

Your in HHoD right? Clearly you missed the epsilon war.

[Eisenhorne]

Johnathan Tanner, on 16 April 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Your in HHoD right? Clearly you missed the epsilon war.

Yep, HHoD. What is the Epsilon war? I've been running with them for ~4 months now, though I was a member back in 2013 before faction warfare / clans were introduced.

[K O Z A K]

Asym, on 16 April 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

What EL? That cannot be??? Gee, I wonder why??

Not matter mate; the 120 players that play FP can have it all to yourselves to farm, club, roll, stomp and exploit every possible nuance available.... Have at it. Please, have a blast...

The other, lets say as a wag, the 600 that left FP en masse applaud your efforts to confirm what the video game industry has known about for a while now: that teams with more than 4 players gets very toxic very quickly (compounding of negative social attributes in closed environments that reward anti-social behaviors (i.e. meritocracy))... Wonder why Solaris 1x1/2x2 and MW5's limit of..................four??? Hmmmmmm....??? coincidence...

You reap what you sow..... Otherwise, there would be teams all over the place chomping to get in there; and, what do we have now: ghost drops, entire teams that have left the game and a barren mode where everyone other than the 120 simply won't go.....and, when they do try FP..........someone earlier alluded to that experience. Good luck.

there are 50,000 players in FP and only 10,000 in QP, what are you talking about?

See everyone can make up bs numbers

Your logic is flawed, if there's only 120 players in CW all of whom are all about "exploiting" (being good at the game) then wouldn't they have nobody to seal club?

I find on average the most toxic players in FP tend to be solo players that had ~5 bad drops in a row and then end up with a really strong group on their team, and even though they do 500 damage because they finally win they believe it gives them the right to talk mad sh*t to the reds taking out their frustration from previous drops. There's one higher end unit that is well known for being trolly (we all know who ) but nobody is forcing you to take them seriously, have some fun, it's a video game

What time zone are you playing? I literally can't remember the last time I had a ghost drop. If anything it almost seems like more people are starting to play FP, I'm waiting less time for games today than a few months ago (and I would get occasional ghost drops before), it's possible though that this is due to better population distribution these days as it's easier to switch sides