297 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Metus regem, on 28 April 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

LOL the SRM carrier packs 10xSRM/6.... the Demolisher has always packed twin AC/20's, UAC/20+LB-20 or twin HGR's....

Long story short, tanks in TT have always been a serious threat... no heat build up, they always sink it every round, about the only way not to make them OP was to punish them with the vechole crit system as well as kill them as soon as structure had been killed on any facing.

Those SRM carriers are terrifying. I just ran into one during a mission and assumed it must only carry like 4 launchers then next thing I know my main heavy mech is just gone from one salvo and I was left in complete shock. Now whenever I see a tank blip I clench up in terror knowing that it could be another mech melter.

[Brain Cancer]

Metus regem, on 28 April 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

LOL the SRM carrier packs 10xSRM/6.... the Demolisher has always packed twin AC/20's, UAC/20+LB-20 or twin HGR's....

Long story short, tanks in TT have always been a serious threat... no heat build up, they always sink it every round, about the only way not to make them OP was to punish them with the vechole crit system as well as kill them as soon as structure had been killed on any facing.

Yeah. The exception to the "no heat" is energy weapons, which require heat sinks equal to the maximum heat those weapons produce. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Yes, that means a Schrek tank with it's 3 PPCs also has an additional 20 tons in heat sinks to go with it as the fusion engine thankfully comes with 10. Also, anything that counts as "heat up" on a 'Mech turns into actual damage for a tank, with the ever-popular Inferno SRM rounds getting an automatic crit roll with each missile instead of damage- in TT, it's about a 42% chance per missile to deal some level of crew hit, engine hit, or weapon destruction though none of it will obliterate the target outright (but will chew it up in small pieces).

And tanks are naturally more fragile than giant combat robots are (as are all vehicles, especially ones like hovertanks). It just doesn't seem to feel quite that way in the HBS version.

[kapusta11]

Thought about trying the game out, glad I didn't. "They" thing could be passable but banning people for expressing their opinion in a civil manner is just ridiculous. And no, I'm not acting like SJW because I'm not the one here trying to sell my politics and act like gestаpo towards those who might not like the idea. This shіt should stay out of gaming.

Edited by kapusta11, 29 April 2018 - 12:47 AM.

[Luminis]

kapusta11, on 29 April 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

banning people for expressing their opinion in a civil manner is just ridiculous.

On the Paradox Forums? Colour me surprised because threats on the topic are still going, there was just like one moderator stepping when people weren't being civil about expressing their opinions on the matter. Or did I miss something?

Brain Cancer, on 28 April 2018 - 11:37 PM, said:

And tanks are naturally more fragile than giant combat robots are (as are all vehicles, especially ones like hovertanks). It just doesn't seem to feel quite that way in the HBS version.

The difference is most palpable when you're spraying them with a number of small-ish weapons, imho. My BLR has seven MLas, an SRM6 and two MGs - spreads all over an enemy Mech without a called shot, but the limited hit locations on tanks make that loadout exceedingly efficient at tank busting

[Bishop Six]

Best way to deal with these topics is like i also say on our TS:

Leave the ******* politics out of the games!

We are all here to create an own world full of fantasy together to have a peaceful place to rest from RL.

And with peaceful i mean lets shoot each other for the glory of the battletech universe!

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 28 April 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

Those SRM carriers are terrifying. I just ran into one during a mission and assumed it must only carry like 4 launchers then next thing I know my main heavy mech is just gone from one salvo and I was left in complete shock. Now whenever I see a tank blip I clench up in terror knowing that it could be another mech melter.

In TT I've always ranked the Demolisher and SRM carriers as two of the best city fighting units, cheap, powerful and easy to hide.

When I found out SRM carriers were in the game I was watching a streamer, his eyes almost bulged out of his head when he let a SRM carrier get around behind his Shadowhawk and it obliterated it... the next mission he faced a demolished, it head capped his character... his reactions were priceless.

More on to tanks, there are some real beastly units, I'd suggest heading into the vexhile section of Sarna to get an idea of just how nasty they can get.

[Koniving]

s0da72, on 28 April 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

I've been enjoying the single player campaign quite a bit, it's a lot of fun. I didn't realize how powerful vehicles are, not sure if it's like that in table top. But I'm more scared of vehicles than heavy mechs.

One vehicle was some kind of SRM carrier, I think it had 12+ srm6's, Another one was a tank with dual AC 20's.

When's PGI going to release one of these vehicles in a Mech pack, sign me up..

If you think they're powerful in the PC game.... I hate to say it but even the wimpy ones are being pushovers compared to actual BT vehicles.
--------
In comparison from Battletech PC to Battletech/Megamek.
The tank pushover issue...

Scorpion tank. 25 tons.
PC: Step on it with a 20 ton mech. Instantly kill it. (20 tons stomping on 25 tons and crushing it!? C'mon!)

BT/MM: Kick it with a 20 ton mech. 4 damage against 64 armor. Tank laughs.
Repeat for 1 minute and 20 seconds. 48 damage, out of five tests of "stomping" (kicking) an unarmed Scorpion Light Tank... the tank died twice in 12 turns, and survived with reasonable to significant damage 3 times in 12 turns.

Huh.

PC: Shoot with 3 lasers, 45 *3 damage = 135 damage split among three locations. Tank dies.

BT/MM: Shoot with 3 lasers, 15 damage split among three locations. Tank suffers minor turret damage, reduced to 11 armor, minor body damage reduced to 11 armor, left side minor damage reduced to 8 armor. Tank laughs.
BT/MM: Miracle shot, all three lasers hit the turret. Turret has 1 armor left. Tank laughs.
BT/MM: Miracle shot, all three lasers hit the body. Body has 1 armor left. Tank sweats bullets, then laughs.

PC: Shoot with 2 lasers... tank laughs...then realizes it has exposed internals.
BT/MM: Shoot with 2 lasers.. Tank doesn't even care.

Repeat kicking test with SHK.
PC: Instant kill.
BT/MM: 11 damage to front body, 5 armor remaining (+3 structure).
BT/MM: 20 seconds (two kicks hitting the same location) Light tank destroyed.
BT/MM: Pilot with Melee Master/Melee Specialist: Double kick in 10 seconds (1 turn), Light Tank Destroyed.

(To note: In MW5: Mercs, tanks will also be a push over.)

PC: AC/5 (the one from mission 3.) Scorpion Light Tank, 25 tons. 2 shot kill. Galleon tank, 30 tons. Sometimes takes two shots but a single shot does sometime do the job. (For some reason it takes more shots from lasers even though they do identical damage in both cases..)
BT/MM: Scorpion Light Tank. 5 different tests. Kill in 30 to 70 seconds of combat using just an AC/5. (Note: 4 tons armor, non-mobile for test. Had to retest once because it managed to kill my Shadow Hawk when I forgot to dump its ammo).
BT/MM: Galleon (Recon?) tank. 5 different tests, kill in 20 to 50 seconds. (Note: 3.5 tons armor, non-mobile for test.)

From the TechManual for your reading pleasure about vehicles, the misconceptions and the reality.

Spoiler

On a side note, if you ever happen to face a Behemoth tank... ESPECIALLY an armor variant... you're facing something with hefty firepower AND more armor than even a 100 ton Battlemech can carry...

So if one does appear in the PC version... you best be wearing your brown pants.
This one tracked and unable to move tank... killed an Atlas and 7 out of 8 Enforcers in less than 50 seconds. The Atlas and several Enforcers actually went down in 10 seconds (one turn).

And the armored variant... is woefully underarmed.

Edited by Koniving, 29 April 2018 - 06:34 AM.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Fox the Apprentice, on 27 April 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

[...]
I run on 8 GB and have never had the game take up more than 3.5 GB. I have been watching this issue closely, as I thought it would be a concern.
[...]

Update: After much testing, I got the game to consume 5.4 GB. Oddly enough, this wasn't in my ~12 hour marathon, but was during a shorter session (while doing a story mission). Still able to run on 8 GB with no crashes. I've not yet tried running on higher settings, so I'll try to do some testing on Medium and see how that changes things. Might need to wait until next week, though.

During loading scenes, Windows will occasionally tell me the game has stopped responding and prompts me to close it. Pressing the option to "wait for the program to respond" and waiting a bit has never failed to finish the loading sequence and put me where it's supposed to. Maybe some of the reported "crashes" are just people who saw the screen and thought the game had crashed? It's not a crash at all, it's just Windows being bad at detecting when a program is still doing stuff.

[Koniving]

I'm on 16 gigs of ram. I've never had an issue. I do warn about having a joystick laying around for a toddler to grab though as there's a button mapped by default that hides the HUD... and there isn't a single keyboard key mapped to bring it back, you gotta find the key on the joystick.
The game will run with the UI completely hidden, and takes every key and every click as if the UI was still shown.... So...watch out for that.

[Luminis]

I run the game on 12GB of RAM and haven't had any issues regarding that so far. It does seem to bog down after several hours of play, though, but it doesn't crash, it just slows down and load times increase to hell and back. Guess I've been restarting the game for those exact reasons before it could crash

[Burke IV]

It does seem riddled with bugs tho, very betaish still. Im enjoying it cause its difficult but most of the time that means the mission scripting is broken and all the enemy just activate on turn one. It feels incomplete.

[MischiefSC]

Tanks and infantry are why BV was broke AF. Among other reasons.

Playing BT with a friend who was a total Clan munchkin he took his two LPL Warhawks and 3 Adders with LRMs and PPCs.

I took 8 LRM carriers 24 infantry (mixed Inferno and TAG spotters), two Demolsihers tucked into the town where the LRM carriers were hidden and 4 light SRM carriers.

Needless to say he rage quit on round 4. One of his Warhawks went down Round 2, the Adder that tried to rush the town and one he tried to creep up with both got smashed Round 3 and round 4 one Adder died to infantry and it was clear Round 5 was going to involve 24 LRM 20s and 8 sets of Inferno SRMs.

Vehicles can be stupidly strong for the BV. Also I credibly cheesy strategically to use. Which is, I suspect, why they were nerfed.

[Koniving]

Not sure what you're talking about. But once you're detected they do seem to have set coordination, like all enemies in this area know you're there if you are detected by one of them. Yet enemies in that area don't seem to know you're there unless it is scripted. In more random battles they don't seem so isolated in terms of communication, so perhaps that's what you mean.

---------

Its a shame that falling over is strictly animated with no inverse kinematics. I get the need to keep them in the same block, but when falling toward a cliff it should be okay to fall off.

[jss78]

RIP Dekker.

I thought he could safely scout that one ridgeline, in his trusty Jenner F.

This is what he found, staring at him on the other side:
- Kintaro
- Shadow Hawk
- Vindicator
- Cicada 3C
- TWO SRM carriers
- a pair of light tanks

*SPLAT*

(That last SRM carrier did a called shot into Dekker's Jenner's head while he was prone, with 60 SRM's. That's just cold.)

[Koniving]

MischiefSC, on 29 April 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

Tanks and infantry are why BV was broke AF. Among other reasons.

Playing BT with a friend who was a total Clan munchkin he took his two LPL Warhawks and 3 Adders with LRMs and PPCs.

I took 8 LRM carriers 24 infantry (mixed Inferno and TAG spotters), two Demolsihers tucked into the town where the LRM carriers were hidden and 4 light SRM carriers.

Needless to say he rage quit on round 4. One of his Warhawks went down Round 2, the Adder that tried to rush the town and one he tried to creep up with both got smashed Round 3 and round 4 one Adder died to infantry and it was clear Round 5 was going to involve 24 LRM 20s and 8 sets of Inferno SRMs.

Vehicles can be stupidly strong for the BV. Also I credibly cheesy strategically to use. Which is, I suspect, why they were nerfed.

They did change the rules (TT) to make them move in formations as an optional balancing rule.. mainly because the vehicles can split up and provide too many targets for a mech to handle, which also forces them to move at the same time as opposed to move this one, then this one, then the mech moves, then these three can completely screw the mech..

But when playing Megamek set in simultaneous turns, the vehicles moving separately is actually more detrimental to them than moving as a formation, as such its more of a nerf to move separately when everyone moves at the same time. So that's a big difference between traditional turns and simultaneous turns.

Edited by Koniving, 29 April 2018 - 07:36 AM.

[Burke IV]

Koniving, on 29 April 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Not sure what you're talking about. But once you're detected they do seem to have set coordination, like all enemies in this area know you're there if you are detected by one of them.

It usually goes, all the enemys rush me, i kill them all then i go kill the base or whatever and then it says "incomming reinforcements" and then straight after its mission complete cause they are already dead. Either that or there are supposed to be more that dont trigger right.

I mean the story missions have been fine so far but the filler missions script seems broken. I have been doing alot of them cause im trying to build a stable to clear the ammo crates mission perfectly thats as far as i have seen

I have been doing missions all over the place tho and getting mechs

Edited by Burke IV, 29 April 2018 - 07:44 AM.

[Koniving]

Burke IV, on 29 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

It usually goes, all the enemys rush me, i kill them all then i go kill the base or whatever and then it says "incomming reinforcements" and then straight after its mission complete cause they are already dead. Either that or there are supposed to be more that dont trigger right.

I mean the story missions have been fine so far but the filler missions script seems broken. I have been doing alot of them cause im trying to build a stable to clear the ammo crates mission perfectly thats as far as i have seen

I have been doing missions all over the place tho and getting mechs

Yet to encounter that one. I do know that when it says incoming reinforcements... I've only seen them spawn entirely new enemies at the edges of the map or underneath a dropship. In one case I saw them spawn out of buildings. (In one case I was at the edge of a map and scattered my mechs out as it said the garrison was returning. An enemy Locust spawned near the edge right in front of my Locust, it and the Wolverine rushed forward and attacked my main group and had no idea my Locust was right there hidden in the bushes under cover. So I swept out and went for the back shots.

If you happen to destroy the buildings that a couple of tanks spawned from ahead of time, though, they don't spawn.

[MischiefSC]

Regardless of number or targets, it's 24 LRM20s, 10 SRM6s, 4 AC20s plus whatever mess the infantry damage was (3 or 4 charts and a half dozen hit location rolls per platoon.... really?)

That's 680 damage potential from the vehicles and 192 from the infantry, approximately.

The Clan star is, what, 250? Less than?

It's a truly stupid amount of firepower and the Clan Star degrades far more quickly.

[Brain Cancer]

Yep. The average giant robot is a concentration of force, but not protection as it's also the most highly centralized force on the field.

A perfect example is watching a Hellstar, the epitome of Clan can-killing be assaulted by infantry.

Each of it's four ERPPCs kills 2 people per turn if they hit. Two. A single, unarmored infantry platoon is 28 people, never mind that it's far cheaper to field multiple platoons vs. the Hellstar, so a bunch of solhama Clan infantry with kneecapper charges and such will bring down a 95-ton optimized elite Clan death machine with minimal loss of effectiveness, assuming they're close enough to engage.

On the other hand, if that Hellstar had a few small pulse lasers or MGs, it'd turn a platoon into scorch marks and pulp every turn. Vehicles and other units have their own unique weaknesses, and rare is the Battletech player that equips them because they're used to nothing but giant robots.

"Kill it with fire" is one. Vehicles do not mix at all with burning hexes and infantry even less so, so torching a position your robots can move through with minimal heat issues is one good solution. The smoke also blocks line of sight, which can screw up spotters something fierce. Inferno rounds force automatic crit checks for every single missile that hits a vehicle, and auto-kill three infantry per missile (and three missile hits in a given turn will also BBQ any one battle armored trooper, too).

Precision autocannon munitions ignore movement modifiers, making nimble little hovertanks sitting ducks. Area effect rounds (artillery cannons, Arrow IV, and to a very lesser extent, mine-clearance munitions) become more efficient when used on swarms of weaker units, and cluster rounds both swat VTOLs/aircraft and infantry to decent effect. An LB-2X is minimally effective on 'Mechs, but will gnaw on anything airborne, forcing control checks, knocking rotors, critting motive systems, and so on. And can do it at ranges that beat even your worst nightmares in terms of Gauss-toting VTOLs.

But most BattleTech players won't even think of such things in most games, ignoring combined arms entirely. This is why they die horribly when encountering someone who doesn't. That vehicles are so capable of ruining someone's day in HBS is very accurate...and as far as I can tell, they actually made them stronger, as through-armor criticals don't seem to exist in it. You have to deplete it's structure on one location to kill it, as there's no crew hits, no engine damage, no potential golden-BB ammo explosions like there is in tabletop. It makes them far more potent then they already can be.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 29 April 2018 - 09:22 AM.

[Metus regem]

MischiefSC, on 29 April 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

Regardless of number or targets, it's 24 LRM20s, 10 SRM6s, 4 AC20s plus whatever mess the infantry damage was (3 or 4 charts and a half dozen hit location rolls per platoon.... really?)

That's 680 damage potential from the vehicles and 192 from the infantry, approximately.

The Clan star is, what, 250? Less than?

It's a truly stupid amount of firepower and the Clan Star degrades far more quickly.

It's really funny, as when you take conventional vehicles in a Clan invasion era game (I've been on both sides) Clans get curb stomped, hard... it's just so much fire power advantage for the IS....

Hell I once had a Ghost Bear Elemental Star Captian point out that the invasion would be a bad idea for the Clan, as the conflict style the IS practices is not something the Clans do and the Clan forces would find they run out of ammo too fast.... not to mention the logistical issues for such an undertaking...

Yeah he got ignored....