68 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

With Clans losing laser vomit as a viable option against IS laser vomit and the closest thing being Gaussvomit, how are you guys expecting things to go? All Clan alpha mechs now being extra explosive, also probably more SRM builds, which don't really seem too competitive with IS equivalents, or ballistic boats which also get demolished by IS equivalents.

Your thoughts?

[Johnathan Tanner]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

With Clans losing laser vomit as a viable option against IS laser vomit and the closest thing being Gaussvomit, how are you guys expecting things to go? All Clan alpha mechs now being extra explosive, also probably more SRM builds, which don't really seem too competitive with IS equivalents, or ballistic boats which also get demolished by IS equivalents.

Your thoughts?

Clans are gonna be garbage for everything except lrms and linebacker rushes.

I guess dual madcat-b dropdecks could be viable. But thats putting it all on just 2 waves.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 11 May 2018 - 07:15 PM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Seems like all Clan machines are not performing to expectations. I do not know if Mad Cat MK2 have become lightning rods or what but they are not as awesome as before. I saw this in QP and FP this week. Guess the IS is having the pendulum swing their way again.

[Tesunie]

Funny, from what I saw of the update, with the small adjustments of ghost heat limits for Clan lasers... Not a single one of my mechs will be changing or even need to change. Ghost heat if you shoot more than 5 ERMLs? I can't think of any of my mechs that have more than 4. HLL being capped at 2? I paired these with ERMLs anyway, so I couldn't sustain more than two shooting at one time anyway... I think maybe my MAD IIC might be at risk, but that may be about it.

Did I miss something about the patch notes that I should be aware of beyond that?


Edit: Apparently HLLs are being reduced to only being able to shoot a single laser without ghost heat? I guess I misread that one... Yeah. That's kinda harsh. HLLs aren't AC20 level of damage last I knew, only other weapon limited to only one that I know of.

Rest doesn't seem too bad in my opinion.

Edited by Tesunie, 11 May 2018 - 08:33 PM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Tesunie, on 11 May 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

Funny, from what I saw of the update, with the small adjustments of ghost heat limits for Clan lasers... Not a single one of my mechs will be changing or even need to change. Ghost heat if you shoot more than 5 ERMLs? I can't think of any of my mechs that have more than 4. HLL being capped at 2? I paired these with ERMLs anyway, so I couldn't sustain more than two shooting at one time anyway... I think maybe my MAD IIC might be at risk, but that may be about it.

Did I miss something about the patch notes that I should be aware of beyond that?


Edit: Apparently HLLs are being reduced to only being able to shoot a single laser without ghost heat? I guess I misread that one... Yeah. That's kinda harsh. HLLs aren't AC20 level of damage last I knew, only other weapon limited to only one that I know of.

Rest doesn't seem too bad in my opinion.

You read the notes wrong.

C-ERML limit is 4 before ghost heat. A 5th laser triggers.

So a 5 ERML Ice Ferret, or a 5 MPL Adder, or a 6 MPLs linebacker all have ghost heat now on alphas.

[Tesunie]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 11 May 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

You read the notes wrong.

C-ERML limit is 4 before ghost heat. A 5th laser triggers.

So a 5 ERML Ice Ferret, or a 5 MPL Adder, or a 6 MPLs linebacker all have ghost heat now on alphas.

Hum... I think a 6th laser should trigger ghost heat. Wasn't it a 7th laser would do it previously? Now that's starting to effect a few of my builds. Not many, but yeah...

My Linebacker is gonna not be happy with the HLL change. Dual HLLs backed with three ERMLs... Ran hot enough as it was...


Thanks for the clarification. I now see far more of the issue with this. Well, it's time to adapt again. Honestly, besides all of my HLL builds, the ERML change only affected one of my builds.


If their balancing works "as intended", I could see this as a step into reducing some health quirks... Think that may be their overall attempt? Reduce the higher alpha firepower, and then you can reduce the health quirks that a lot of IS mechs have. Could that be a good thing? Maybe...

I for one will try it out first and see what the results are. Though, I'm starting to agree with you folks.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

I took a break to play Battletech. This patch isn't doing much to encourage my return. Double MKII-Bs, HBIIC and a misty or piranha all day every day just feels very bland. Not sure what other deck is going to be able to compete though.

[Johnathan Tanner]

They dont factor our game mode into thier balance decisions. Its to small apparently (Even I hear Solaris is already having long as wait times , But that normal right? I mean it is THE PRIMARY GAME MODE. Says it when I log in.)

IS has been super stacked for awhile now as it got all the cool new toys with new tech. Clans only got heavy larges....And nothing else worth anything. IS will be even more stacked now that mercs are not gonna wanna play a side with builds that are not competitive with their IS counterparts.

IS laser vomit builds are more agile than clan equivalents, Allowing you to spread damage better, Plus IS laservomit platforms are usually armor and/or structure quirked. Allowing you to take a larger amount of damage than a clan counterpart. Hell-bringers and ebon jags are made of paper compared to properly skill-treed whammys and hoppers, And the roughneck 3-A is a disgusting pile of quirks with high mounts.

Mid range laser trading with clans is over if this goes thru as we all know stagger fire while trading is bad. Downright suicidal if the other side is not bound by the same rules. Clan laser burn times has always been a check on raw firepower. Having to expose and fire 2 weapon groups against 3 large 4-5 med laser war-hammers? Yeah right.

[Grus]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 11 May 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

You read the notes wrong.

C-ERML limit is 4 before ghost heat. A 5th laser triggers.

So a 5 ERML Ice Ferret, or a 5 MPL Adder, or a 6 MPLs linebacker all have ghost heat now on alphas.

And that's ******* stupid....

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mostly glad I never bought that ECM ice ferret based on using 5 ERML because 35 damage over 1.25 is too OP now. I feel bad for new players in Trial mechs with even the Adder with its pathetic 5 ERMLs being unable to fire without ghost heat.

It really seems that PGI has totally forgotten about any sort of regards for laser duration, cooldowns, and base heat with their decisions here.

But really *who* is going to actually play Clan anymore? I had swaped over to IS months ago when I could reason that IS had better laser vomit than Clans back then due to higher damage per tick, more durability, and shorter duration allowing a decent pilot to spread any extra damage the Clan mech had over me to the point that my IS mech had more total effective damage. Now Clan is 2/3s of an already worse value than what IS had.

Seems at this point LRMs and ATMs become a valid option for Clans simply due to everything else being nerfed into the dirt. Deathstrike is pretty much totally untouched by any of these changes, but you can't bring 4 waves of them for sure, and 2 waves of DS vs 2 waves of Annis my bet's on the fatties.

SRM decks are a possibility, but not really for anyone out pugging it since they require a team pushing, and its not really like even 6 ASRM6 for clan is even any good 72 damage spread even more than the 78 damage that laser builds are.

Might go full retro running builds from 2 years ago HBR with single gauss and some lasers, but running just 2LPL+4ERML at this stage in the game is basically just betting on the enemy team not having players as good as you who are using their side's "equivalent" mech.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 01:37 AM, said:

But really *who* is going to actually play Clan anymore?

Thats the big question now isnt it. IDK honestly. Not me. And I could be wrong but I highly doubt my unit is gonna wanna go clan and run waves of squishy srm linebackers with garbage spread against walls of heavy gauss anni's.

Not saying that clans will lose every match or something. But I think it would make it feel alot like work instead of fun because of the extra coordination and team work this will require to beat an IS team of equal skill. And im a guy who plays this game just for coordination and teamwork, I fear this might push balance way too far out of whack tho.

SRM brawl teams need to be really good at following a dropcaller who can think fast and make clear concise decisions. Once the push is called you are totally committed.( Ive seen many guys yell "Ok PUSH" get over a hill see a wall of death and go **** that and veer off and then they all scatter not focusing fire and 15-20 seconds later 12 dead mechs)

Lurms teams are a thing (Somehow) They can surprise you. But mostly its them not realizing that the best AMS in the game is a rock with infinite health. Easy defeated with proper cover use and simply charging them under 600 meters.

Full dakka teams are a rarer site mostly because of limitations on mechs that can boat ballistics effectively. Most ballistic mechs are slow assaults that dont poke well(Hunchback 2 is notable exception to this). Works best on defense in my opinion. On attack They mostly roll right straight at you at you shooting. Never twisting, When you have 2 ultra 10s and 2 5s you stare at the other guy and make him twist to death. 2 assault drop decks are great at bullying pugs but a bad investment against guys who know how to fight back.

Few units in the game are as specialized as what I just listed but they do exist. And in between is laser vomit. Its fast its light. It can be made to work everywhere. It can compliment any strategy. Thats why lasers have been the baseline load out in CW and most of the game for so long. As of patch day IS will still have that baseline. Clans will not.

Oh and clan pugs will be screwed more than usual.

[Natural Predator]

As someone who consistently plays both sides, clans are ******. Pinpoint laser vomit was the clans bread and butter and pgi just gutted that without increase clan defensive stats. If they are really going forward with this every single clan mech about 50 tons needs armor quirks and structure quirks. Otherwise you are now out damaged, out armored at a tonnage disadvantage. This change may basically end faction play. Quick play won’t matter because quick play is full of scrubbers anyways. But 2 evenly matched teams in faction play means clan lose every time.

[El Bandito]

Not happy about the nerfs. At least should have lowered the GH count for Clan medium class lasers to 5 max, not 4 max.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

With Clans losing laser vomit as a viable option against IS laser vomit and the closest thing being Gaussvomit, how are you guys expecting things to go? All Clan alpha mechs now being extra explosive, also probably more SRM builds, which don't really seem too competitive with IS equivalents, or ballistic boats which also get demolished by IS equivalents.

Your thoughts?

My Orion-IIC-A wins vs. all IS heavy class SRM/MRM bombers, in FP. It moves faster than them too. MCII-B is still the perfect blend of firepower and mobility. Anni-2A and 1X are getting nerfed so that's also fine.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 May 2018 - 06:02 AM.

[Natural Predator]

El Bandito, on 12 May 2018 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not happy about the nerfs. At least should have lowered the GH count for Clan medium class lasers to 5 max, not 4 max.




My Orion-IIC-A wins vs. all IS heavy class SRM/MRM bombers, in FP. It moves faster than them too. MCII-B is still the perfect blend of firepower and mobility. Anni-2A and 1X are getting nerfed so that's also fine.

There is no way an onion 2ca wins against an onion va assuming 2 same skilled opponents. Come on man.

[El Bandito]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 12 May 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

There is no way an onion 2ca wins against an onion va assuming 2 same skilled opponents. Come on man.

I suppose I have not yet faced someone who is equal in skill in an IS Orion then.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Well, now we really know why the clans suddenly got 15 tons (at a time where the map wasn’t really moving and units played both sides). Cause they were about to drop the mother of all Clan nerfs.
2. It’s heavy handed. I agree with Bandito....I think if they had gone to 5 on the erml’s (from 6) I think many of us would be ok-ish with it.
3. If you are going play Clan, you better like brawling and ballistics. Obviously, brawling can be a bit of a dicey proposition with all those dual Hguass anni’s and CP-S’s out there.
4. Dual hgauss is probably next for the nerf hammer...despite the sacrifices you must make to run it, if they are seriously looking at this 30 damage cap thing (which it seems like they are with the ppc/gauss nerf and now this) dual HG is way, way over that and pinpoint. Not saying they should nerf it...but if they are going this hard on Clan laser vomit, I have to think HG is going to get hit.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 12 May 2018 - 08:43 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Guess Russ is tweeting about this in the last hour....maybe they are going to cancel or adjust it. The pitchforks and torches are certainly out in force on this one.

[Pain G0D]

Clan or IS account 85 percent of my mechs are missile or dakka .

[MischiefSC]

literally won't impact my deck in any way nor 99.9% of KCom, even if you ignore Linebackers.

Clan SRMs are and have always been strong, Clan ballistics have some strong options, you still have laser options just not heavy laser vomit outside of things like spl/mpl builds that were 4x4 anyway.

[ANOM O MECH]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

literally won't impact my deck in any way nor 99.9% of KCom, even if you ignore Linebackers.

Clan SRMs are and have always been strong, Clan ballistics have some strong options, you still have laser options just not heavy laser vomit outside of things like spl/mpl builds that were 4x4 anyway.

My beefs are that balance right now is based around Clan high alpha's, and IS armor quirks. You equalize the firepower of the two it would make sense to bring armor in line with it.

Clan ballistics? I'd rather run IS ballistics to be honest. 3 AC10 Victor in my opinion is much better than the various Night Gyr builds. Also am not sold on all of the lbx2 spam some folks playing Clan against us use...it has not been effective against my guys in Battlemasters and Grasshoppers.

Will your guys style of play be effected? Probably not. However I don't play against anyone in CW that can do what your unit does. Your guys playstyle is pulled off by the high average skill and coordination your guys have.

It really won't even effect my Hellbringers since I have switched back to large pulse build of yore because the dps and range is way more effective to deal with IS armor. My two heavy large/ six mg Sadcat however....

For my money the smarter move for PGI would have been to link ghost heat to the heavies as they did with pulses... That way hardpoint starved mechs wouldn't get the shaft along with the intended targets.