55 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 26 May 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

But SRM boat vs SRM boat IS has higher alpha, higher DPS, and better spread. IS is tankier while Clan has better mobility.

What heavy class SRM boats are you comparing linebackers to? Even ton for ton IS has Catapults, going 5 tons higher they get the Archers. Dropping in weight There's the Bushwacker.

So the A1 Catapult? An XL Bushwhacker? The Archer? You are calling them comparable to the LBK?

IS does not have bigger alpha or DPS. Not on anything anywhere near viable.

Theoretical DPS that ignores actual DPS because of heat isn't a real number. A suicide bomber XL Bushie isn't a real thing either - though a Scrow does it better and faster at that tonnage range.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

So the A1 Catapult? An XL Bushwhacker? The Archer? You are calling them comparable to the LBK?

IS does not have bigger alpha or DPS. Not on anything anywhere near viable.

Theoretical DPS that ignores actual DPS because of heat isn't a real number. A suicide bomber XL Bushie isn't a real thing either - though a Scrow does it better and faster at that tonnage range.

No one said anything about XL bushie, infact i stated LFE in my other post. Bushwacker can bring an LFE engine and 6 SRM6 without artemis just like a Linebacker brings 6 SRM6 without artemis, but Bushwacker has a bit better spread and slightly more damage per shot along with superior hitboxes at the cost of being 15kph slower (LFE 280)

Also are you really suggesting that a stormcrow beats a bushwacker in an SRM brawl scenario? Scrows had a hard enough time killing griffins back in 2016.

Here's builds:
BSW-P1
CPLT-A1
ARC-5W

I will say that on the Bushwacker I prefer 4 ASRM6 over 6 SRM6 by far because I find SRMs without artemis to be a terrible waste. You may put out more damage, but its because you have to rather than because its better. Artemis causes it to be much more efficient, meaning you have to shoot less times, meaning less heat generated and also means the enemy has died faster, which means that you have taken less damage.

On the Catapult and Archer I have artemis equiped, giving it both an equal number of SRMs (that have higher damage per missile) and superior spread meaning less heat generated at the cost of having a few less heatsinks. However, if I were to remove the artemis then I could have equal heatsinks or higher compared to the Linebacker build.

If we go back to Tarogato's experiments with SRM spread ( https://mwomercs.com...-due-to-spread/ ) we read that he couldn't actually get to a close enough range where CSRM6 without artemis would all hit the same component, even as close as 2m away against a turret, a target as big as a jenner's entire torso section, much larger than any single hitbox on a medium or heavy mech (except maybe the linebacker's huge nose ). Meanwhile the IS ASRM6 was hitting consistently with all missiles from 100m away.


EDIT: looking at the current stats on SRM spread:
IS: 4.5
Clan: 5
Artemis multiplies spread by 0.75
A-IS: 3.375
A-Clan: 3.75

This means that Clan gets 0.675 multiplier to damage on target, so a CSRM6 is going to maybe hit about 4 SRMs reliably where IS would be hitting 6 with ASRM6s. So this would explain why I found 4 ASRM6 to be superior to 6CSRM6. 6 CSRM6 would get 48.6 damage on a target while IS would get 51.6 while Clan generates 50% more heat to sandblast.

EDIT2:
Also further small bonuses in IS favor is 7.5% more damage per ton of ammo stacking up with being more accurate stacking up with fighting less tanky enemies meaning IS doesn't really need as much ammo as Clans to get the same amount of work done.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 26 May 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[ccrider]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 26 May 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

No one said anything about XL bushie, infact i stated LFE in my other post. Bushwacker can bring an LFE engine and 6 SRM6 without artemis just like a Linebacker brings 6 SRM6 without artemis, but Bushwacker has a bit better spread and slightly more damage per shot along with superior hitboxes at the cost of being 15kph slower (LFE 280)

Also are you really suggesting that a stormcrow beats a bushwacker in an SRM brawl scenario? Scrows had a hard enough time killing griffins back in 2016.

Here's builds:
BSW-P1
CPLT-A1
ARC-5W

I will say that on the Bushwacker I prefer 4 ASRM6 over 6 SRM6 by far because I find SRMs without artemis to be a terrible waste. You may put out more damage, but its because you have to rather than because its better. Artemis causes it to be much more efficient, meaning you have to shoot less times, meaning less heat generated and also means the enemy has died faster, which means that you have taken less damage.

On the Catapult and Archer I have artemis equiped, giving it both an equal number of SRMs (that have higher damage per missile) and superior spread meaning less heat generated at the cost of having a few less heatsinks. However, if I were to remove the artemis then I could have equal heatsinks or higher compared to the Linebacker build.

If we go back to Tarogato's experiments with SRM spread ( https://mwomercs.com...-due-to-spread/ ) we read that he couldn't actually get to a close enough range where CSRM6 without artemis would all hit the same component, even as close as 2m away against a turret, a target as big as a jenner's entire torso section, much larger than any single hitbox on a medium or heavy mech (except maybe the linebacker's huge nose ). Meanwhile the IS ASRM6 was hitting consistently with all missiles from 100m away.


EDIT: looking at the current stats on SRM spread:
IS: 4.5
Clan: 5
Artemis multiplies spread by 0.75
A-IS: 3.375
A-Clan: 3.75

This means that Clan gets 0.675 multiplier to damage on target, so a CSRM6 is going to maybe hit about 4 SRMs reliably where IS would be hitting 6 with ASRM6s. So this would explain why I found 4 ASRM6 to be superior to 6CSRM6. 6 CSRM6 would get 48.6 damage on a target while IS would get 51.6 while Clan generates 50% more heat to sandblast.

EDIT2:
Also further small bonuses in IS favor is 7.5% more damage per ton of ammo stacking up with being more accurate stacking up with fighting less tanky enemies meaning IS doesn't really need as much ammo as Clans to get the same amount of work done.

part of the stats being considered has to be mobility; any of those IS robots move like carp compared to what a linebacker does. Torso twist, running by and getting arms on target, all in linebackers favor. In a face to face shooting contest, you are correct. But the only time I do that in a linebacker is if I'm better off face hugging so other enemies can't shoot me.

[MischiefSC]

So would you like to test any of those builds vs a Linebacker, or the Bushie vs, say, a Huntsman or Scrow? Scrow doesn't do splat because even nerfed the SPL build is (a bit) better - such is still inferior to most HBK/Huntsman options.

You're trying to narrow the argument to ignore how it actually plays. The LBK has way better cooling, faster and spreads damage as well or better. The Bushie is a strong medium - not with 6xsrm6 though. You want to play a Splatapult or Archer vs a LBK that's funny but sure.

IS SRMs have less spread and more damage *because they are 2x as heavy and take 2x the slots*. Any Clan mech can take either 2x the missiles or same missiles but faster, additional weapons and DHS. The Bushie is strong because of all the armor quirks, not splat. It's best with SRMs and MGs and serving as a tank for other, more dangerous but fragile mechs.

[justcallme A S H]

KHAN ATTAKHAN, on 26 May 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

I.S. at short range, clans at long distance, if your stupid and play it the wrong way around then I.S. is OP or clan is OP, good god people, you've been playing this for long enough and a 2 day noob can work it out hide your tier ratings, it's embarassing.

And this is why you should not be offering to train people.

What a load of rubbish.

[MischiefSC]

But but but dat champ brawling Catapult! Muh Archer OP!

[Bishop Six]

MischiefSC, on 26 May 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:

You mistake my point - Clans are still better. Splat, laservomit and outside of Anni, Mauler, HGauss Fapnir and Cyclops even dakka. No question. IS has some really strong brawlers and a couple good trade mechs but drop deck to drop deck Clans are still stronger. I've been pounding the tech balance drum for years. Not as bad as it used to be but still leans Clan.

Sorry Sir, after long years of war my brain isn't working properly anymore (You know...this shrapnels in the cockpit thing)

Too much Clanner-Lurms dingeliding on my head

Yeah, both sides have their advantages in different sections and i like this. No need to demand nerfs for the other side. Just take good people with you to play, 5 or 10 % balance difference is not that important as good teammates.

Lately i have more time and could visit the US prime time a bit, there are nice guys i would love to drop with 12 Urbies and i bet against casuals like me we could win with them

Edited by Bishop Six, 27 May 2018 - 12:54 AM.

[Yondu Udonta]

Exilyth, on 23 May 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

I was looking for the lists of mechs most suitable for clan and inner sphere drop decks, but I can't find the topics anymore. Does anyone have a link?

CP-S WHM-BW WHM-BW UM-K9
maximum dakka with insane cbills farming capabilities

tker 669, on 25 May 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

Even have the six srm version a couple of times on two accounts and even had success with my weirdo 6 srm 4 with artie that I seem to be the only one I know of that runs.

I actually have a 6SRM4A LBK but then again it is a really niche mech when not fielded in a group so it barely sees any action. Really like the smaller spread though.

KHAN ATTAKHAN, on 26 May 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

I.S. at short range, clans at long distance, if your stupid and play it the wrong way around then I.S. is OP or clan is OP, good god people, you've been playing this for long enough and a 2 day noob can work it out hide your tier ratings, it's embarassing.

Hope to see you guys on the battlefield more often, will definitely show you which side is best at long range.

[Bishop Six]

Yondu Udonta, on 28 May 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

CP-S WHM-BW WHM-BW UM-K9
maximum dakka with insane cbills farming capabilities


I actually have a 6SRM4A LBK but then again it is a really niche mech when not fielded in a group so it barely sees any action. Really like the smaller spread though.


Hope to see you guys on the battlefield more often, will definitely show you which side is best at long range.

Pah, Tier 4 trash is bragging again...

[ANOM O MECH]

Yondu Udonta, on 28 May 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

CP-S WHM-BW WHM-BW UM-K9
maximum dakka with insane cbills farming capabilities


I actually have a 6SRM4A LBK but then again it is a really niche mech when not fielded in a group so it barely sees any action. Really like the smaller spread though.


Hope to see you guys on the battlefield more often, will definitely show you which side is best at long range.

Yeah no wonder I like you. We think a lot alike.

As well Hazeclaw fessed up to me he too runs that build so feels a bit better that I am not completely alone here.

[K O Z A K]

tker 669, on 29 May 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

Yeah no wonder I like you. We think a lot alike.

As well Hazeclaw fessed up to me he too runs that build so feels a bit better that I am not completely alone here.

Because it's better. Non artemis csrm6s are a garbage damage farming weapon that's inefficient at killing enemies, even with artemis it's not much better. I wouldn't use anything above artemis clan 4s if I'm actually trying to win. The only clan mech I've used art 6s on was the splat dog and only on a few select FP siege maps when the tonnage was 240 (90+65+60+25), now I see no reason to use it, unless I guess you want to do 4 brawling heavies. And to be honest overall I still think MPL boats are a better option and srms are just to change the play style up a bit and do something different

[Exilyth]

This thread has been very informative so far.

Yondu Udonta, on 28 May 2018 - 10:22 PM, said:

CP-S WHM-BW WHM-BW UM-K9
maximum dakka with insane cbills farming capabilities

Wait a moment - since when are we able to put more than one of the same hero mech into a dropdeck?
I remember reading that's not possible back in the day.

[Eisenhorne]

Exilyth, on 30 May 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

This thread has been very informative so far.



Wait a moment - since when are we able to put more than one of the same hero mech into a dropdeck?
I remember reading that's not possible back in the day.

I don't think so, I know a guy who runs four Top Dogs as a drop deck.

[MischiefSC]

Eisenhorne, on 30 May 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I don't think so, I know a guy who runs four Top Dogs as a drop deck.

I often run 4 H or S mechs to get max bonus.

[TWIAFU]

Bishop Six, on 27 May 2018 - 12:50 AM, said:

...there are nice guys i would love to drop with 12 Urbies and i bet against casuals like me we could win with them

You have to paint your Urbies like Minions to drop the Urbie Rush with us....



Nothing better to see "IS OP" after they loose to Urbies.

Nothing.

[Nightbird]

A drop deck that requires 11 other people bringing the same thing is bad advice for pugs.