83 replies to this topic

[cBiscuit]

I both agree, and disagree to this, to a point.

No, light mechs do not need to stay with the assault pilots and cover their was, unless they specifically chose that 'mech to do so. That goes for literally any weight class of mech as well.

Lights have a plethora of tasks that they attend to, and honestly need to do all of them, if applicable. Scouting, routing the enemy, stalling the enemy team(whether it is a NASCAR or not), fight lone mechs 1v1 or 2v1 (whether those lone mechs are lights, mediums, heavies, or assaults does not matter), cap, and FIGHT IN BRAWLS WITH THE REST OF THE ENEMY TEAM.

Again, this doesn't all apply to light mechs designed to stay with the team, however every other light mech should do this.

I know I am not the greatest light pilot to ever have existed, but I do believe I am quite good, and do think that many I have played with or against will vouch for that.

I say that to say this:
As a light pilot, I prefer light mechs that don't stay with the main body(i.e. not adders, or kit fox ect.). I start every game by moving ahead of my main body, staying in cover, and attempting to find the enemy. This doesn't mean I run to the other side of the map, alone, and get surprised when i turn a corner and die immediately(I don't think this has ever happened to me....ever...). It instead means that I stay hidden, while moving, and make educated guesses as to where they are, until I see something, and all the while communicating with my team as to what is going on, as they are yet to be in position to see it. Then, I decide at that point what my next step is from there. If the enemy team is too quickly moving to a point that would disadvantage my team, I shoot and make them shoot me back, using terrain to not die. This would allow my team to catch up as the enemy team.started shooting. Or, I go pick off stragglers...

Either way, no matter what I do in the mid-game, QP devolves into a brawl anyway, in which case I make sure my team is engaged, and then go shoot enemy mechs. Hell, I have found that even in drops against some of the best teams and players, most.of the time you can find a good spot, stand still, and shoot freely for the duration of the brawl unimpeded, as the rest of your team are all larger mechs, therefore normally perceived as a larger threat (which is incorrect. I'd much rather have an assault occasionally shoot me than a light constantly do so.)

Just my 2c

[Metus regem]

No with an If, and a Yes with a but.

Should all lights be anti-light? No. Well when taking into account the history of some chassis from classic TT BT.

Should all lights be viable at fighting other lights in MWO? Yes, if we do not take into account the roles they are best suited for, as MWO does not support the majority of traditional light mech roles.


Scout type examples:

Locust
Raven
Commando

Anti-infantry / vehicle type examples:

Piranha
Locust
Kit-Fox
Jenner IIC

Light Mech Hunter type example:

Panther
Wolfhound
Jenner
Adder
Cougar
Jenner IIC


Pocket medium mech type examples:

Adder
Cougar
Jenner IIC


Now those are the traditional roles they filled in TT, MWO only really supports Light Mech hunter, as even pocket medium is punished, but not as badly as the scouting type.

[Tarteso]

The problem with some lights actually is that they can suck alphas like cookies, which mades lights cocky enough to face assaults by their own. Lag? Too much dmg spread? Hit boxes broken? I don't know. A few nights ago an urbie was the last of its team and even damaged could manage to kill our last four (heavily damaged) heavy-assaults with 2 mg and ml. And not in one vs one. The feel was like each part was made in full atlas armor.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

I could tell you....

But then I’d have to kill you.

Wait, I probably already have....repeatedly.

[Weeny Machine]

Tarteso, on 30 May 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

The problem with some lights actually is that they can suck alphas like cookies, which mades lights cocky enough to face assaults by their own. Lag? Too much dmg spread? Hit boxes broken? I don't know. A few nights ago an urbie was the last of its team and even damaged could manage to kill our last four (heavily damaged) heavy-assaults with 2 mg and ml. And not in one vs one. The feel was like each part was made in full atlas armor.

They can only do that when you use laser weapons and you are not keeping them on-point of a fast moving mech. In this case it means, you are not such a good shot as you think you are.

[Davegt27]

"Should Every Light Be An "anti-Light"?"

yep I would say so

its not a perfect world, there are some light pilots that are worth more on there own (they can kill 2 or 3 other Mechs)

I have seen some light pilots that would drop 2 lights in a FP drop and no one would complain since they where that good

but bottom line its your Mech do what you want

but keep in mind keep the Annihilator alive they can save the match

Edited by Davegt27, 30 May 2018 - 09:32 AM.

[ANOM O MECH]

Is there an overall right way to play?

Never mind as I don't think anyone wants to get into that debate here.

I think if you are a decent pilot in a Piranha, guarding assaults is going to be pretty low on the list of priorities and that mech and it's role doesn't to me seem suited for it at all.

[Haipyng]

tker 669, on 30 May 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Is there an overall right way to play?

Lots of people think so, and you will hear all about it in game if you are not doing what they think you should.

[mistlynx4life]

I think it's probably safe to say that there was a right way to play, and we see the vestiges of it still, but so many options have been added that there's no longer a definitive stance on... anything. At all. Including what I just said.

[IllCaesar]

Depends on the light. I'll go flank or wolfpack with my TDK because yeah, no, I'm not gonna be able to be take down a SRM Jenner.I can try but without even just one ally to help me out and pick at the Jenner while I take their attention my arms are going to get ripped off and leave me weaponless. Same deal in most Locusts, same deal in the upcoming Flea, same deal in a Mist Lynx. They can't defend themselves against a light hunter - at least not alone

There are lights that can stick with the heavier mechs and do well. I can do that in a Raven or Wolfhound or Kit Fox or, of course, the Urbie. They're no streakcrow but they do alright. Don't expect a 155 KPH Commando with four medium lasers to be able to take on a 145 KPH Janner with volleys of 20 SRMs. I'm just outmatched. I can go skirmish and fighting some heavies and assaults with it but if there's a mech with enough firepower to core your rear what would make you think that my side torso with an XL will do any better all by myself?

[Old dirty B]

IllCaesar, on 30 May 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

... I'm not gonna be able to be take down a SRM Jenner.I can try but without even just one ally to help me out and pick at the Jenner while I take their attention my arms are going to get ripped off and leave me weaponless. Same deal in most Locusts, same deal in the upcoming Flea, same deal in a Mist Lynx. ...

"Believe in yourself, believe that you can do it and you can do it." - Morpheus, The Matrix

You can do that!

Old dirty B (Locust Pilot)

Edited by Old dirty B, 30 May 2018 - 10:31 AM.

[Lykaon]

JadeLight, on 30 May 2018 - 12:20 AM, said:

I have delved deeply into Light mechs this last month and have been interested in the for a while. One thing I never understand is that no matter what light mech I choose, I am told I should be staying with the fatties and defending them from enemy lights. This is not EVERY game but it will happen every once in a while. Is this due to salty assaults who are caught out of position complaining or should EVERY light be responsible for keeping the fatties safe? This problem has been increased by the amount of promo's and release of the Blood Asp so there were frequently only 1 or 2 lights in a game.

In my opinion, a Locust or Piranha for example, can get 1 shot or easily crippled by some lights such as the Jenner IIC or other SRM carriers and will most certainly lose in a 1v1 against tankier light mechs with decent skill. I believe these skirmisher/assassin mechs should focus on what they do best. What is the wider communities opinion?

Also, I believe that generally speaking, mediums are the best defense vs enemy lights.

One of the least time efficient kills is light vs light. And frequently even after successfully destroying the enemy light with your light your own mech is nearly crippled for the effort.

So when you view a match as a group of limited resources and the means of winning the match is depleting those resources and removing them from the enemy,well,then light vs light fights do not make much sense.

You will expend to much time resource and lose to much armor and potentially ammo resource in the effort that the victory's price is just way to high compared to the time/ammo/armor cost of deploying an agile medium mech light an Arctic Wolf instead.

A purpose built anti-light medium can literally one shot kill in a matter of seconds expending no (or nearly no armor) and very little ammo. Much more efficient use of finite resources.

And when you then compare how effective a light can be at destroying or crippling enemy assault mechs...well the resource budget just looks better.


That being said, a fast(ish) light mech should probably consider escorting your team assault mechs to the battle line during the early game. And here is why.

Light mechs do not generally perform well in combat during the early game. The enemy is still to close together to isolate targets and you do not want to be the only available target for an enemy team because you WILL draw a whole pile of firepower from them. The enemy at this point in the game does not have damaged mechs that a light mech can exploit to make quick kills as well. A light combat role mech is best used later in the match rather than earlier.

So early game you have the time budget to dedicate to escorting the assault mechs. Your role here is to discourage enemy attackers not kill them.Do not chase the enemy light to the point where your escorted assault is now not escorted.

Chasing off an enemy light is a resource victory. They dedicated time to finding an enemy assault mech to attack but failed to make the kill because you chased them off. You on the other hand dedicated time to escorting an assault and succeeded in that task.

And lastly it's important for the friendly escorted assault to make their way to a useful location ASAP so they do not waste to many team resources as they go sight seeing around the map.

[Old dirty B]

You should escort Assaults (and heavies), they need you...

[JadeLight]

Asym, on 30 May 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

MWO lost control of "roles" years ago. The arms race created the "mini-assaults" to appease the FPS pilots and to expand sales.

OK, here we are and the relationships centuries of warfare created (cavalry scouting well ahead of the FLOT; fighters protect bombers; destroyers screen surface warfare task forces, etc....) have been ignored in favor of "everybody" is an assault: look at my scores ! With kills and damage as the gauge to becoming "GuD", roles went out the window. No roles, no combined arms, no combined arms and you get "linear" warfare theory where combat mass rules the day; not individual initiative, skill or courage was necessary... You are reaping what you've sown.....it's what the players demanded.....

This thread is a symptom of the disease meritocracies create: that everything is based on where you stand on the leader board as an individual.... First Person Shooter isn't a team because "first" is "I accomplished" not "we" accomplished....

So, if the mini-assaults start eating you lunch in the rear, "I am not responsible for you" because there is no "we" in MWO anymore nor is the strategic intent of this game "we".........It's called Solaris and that is an arcade FPS and lights can fight assaults and everybody should be happy enough to buy a mech pack..... Or, is that really what everybody wanted??

Here's the issue I have with the statement. It feels like you are arguing that the roles of the past should be stuck to no matter what the results are. A light that solo kills 2 enemy assaults is much more valuable to the team then just defending against other lights. You are dismantling the enemies ability to effectively engage and creating confusion.

[JadeLight]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

There's only 1 light I ever worry about, because the Piranha can core out your back and take your weapons in half a second flat before you can respond. Anything else might be annoying, but usually not enough of a threat on its own to make me respond outright. I just have to keep my backside moving. In group play I'd definitely say you need anti-light mechs, whether they're light mechs or not because Piranhas are pretty common there. That being said, what light can take the Piranha in a duel anyways? Those things put out amazing DPS.

Commando 2d, javilin, wolfhound, Jenner IIC, most adder build, some kitfox and cougar builds as well. So basically most of the lights you run into.

[Old dirty B]

Here's another one, anti-anti-light hunting

Edited by Old dirty B, 30 May 2018 - 11:00 AM.

[JadeLight]

LowSubmarino, on 30 May 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

When im in fast mechs, lights or fast mediums, I try to get to a position where I can observe early movement of team reads scouts, lights and fast skrimishers.

If I see some of them take very direct routes that will lead them right at the back of our nascar train, then I set up an ambush. Wait for them and then pounce. If I dont see such movements or I cant see it then I usually run directly to the backend of team red and try to disrupt the biggest targets I can find.

The biggest problem with this is that the tail of the Nascar will use your corpse to survive. It frequently ends up being you against the enemy tip of the spear. Even when it's just a couple lights they generally out number you and then will spot for LRMs. Dodging lrm fire while battling two lights unsupported is not viable in my opinion.

Seriously though, I appreciate all the comments from everyone. I understand where everyone is coming from even when I don't agree. Hope to see you all on the battlefield.

[Ted Theodore Logan]

Asym, on 30 May 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

This thread is a symptom of the disease meritocracies create

https://giphy.com/gi...f-o6SQRR0Etm90Y

[IllCaesar]

Tarteso, on 30 May 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

The problem with some lights actually is that they can suck alphas like cookies, which mades lights cocky enough to face assaults by their own. Lag? Too much dmg spread? Hit boxes broken? I don't know. A few nights ago an urbie was the last of its team and even damaged could manage to kill our last four (heavily damaged) heavy-assaults with 2 mg and ml. And not in one vs one. The feel was like each part was made in full atlas armor.

The Urbie's 360 rotation is an enormous advantage and it has massive armour. That allows it to take on multiple mechs fairly well. If you want to take down an Urbie go for the legs.

[Asym]

Besh, on 30 May 2018 - 08:08 AM, said:

As much as you like to repeat the Mantra of "It is not a Teamgame" and "there are no Roles"....it is proper BS .

Not every Player's motivation to play MW:O is simply reward'/stats driven...there ARE Players who truly enjoy good Teamplay, know how to advocate and foster it, and even can make it work in "random" Matches .

If you ever had the pleasure to be part of a perfectly executed Hammer and Anvil in a QP Match, exececuted by a "random" 12 man Team, driven by people's awarness, knowledge of what needs to be done when and capability of doing it , as well as proper communication - which in said circumstances tends to be minimal - you know what I am talking about . THIS is what MW:O is all about, even in QP . Strangely enough, to be able to pull that off requires enough people on a Team to be working together as a Team...and it happens, in MW:O .

The fact that many, many people havce NO CLUE how to use the Game we are given to its full potential, ONLY play for their personal rewards and stats, and do not for one minute consider how to best work for their Team's success is NONE of PGI'S fault . That is entirely Player driven, and - sadly enough - a sign of the times and Zeitgeist imho.

Sadly, the facts bare my assertions out. There are no roles anymore nor were there any real efforts to create them either. Even FP Scouting isn't about scouting.... Solaris is not about teams and Solaris is PGI's main product now.... So, no BS at all.......they are facts.

Again, I love teams ! Belong to one; admittedly, they no longer play MWO; even P/T......but, I've been in "teams" all of my life !

And yes, it is a freaking hoot when a QP match members actually works together ! Been there, done that and have the merit badge. It's pretty rare now. Doesn't mean it can't happen though !

Faction Play is still open; but, very few play it seems anymore.... It's coming up on one year since we've participated as a 12 pilot team.... QP are 'defacto teams' and QP is a place to test or have fun. S7 is 1x1 and a place for the "competitors" to go at it: pilot to pilot.

You can play a role if you chose ! But, there are very few incentives to do so. The only "teams" are FP and Comp and the franchise itself has announced to the world that S7 is the product line ..... Take a look at the opening screen if you doubt me and S7 is a Arcade FPS... Team play is incidental and we hope, will be supported in some capacity......maybe....pray MW5 is successful.

Just a matter of perspective is all. I see MWO one way and you another ! Neither is right or wrong.