347 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Tarogato, on 15 June 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

Buffing Endo/Ferro does nothing for mechs that don't fit Endo/Ferro. Unless you reduce the slots so that you can take Endo/Ferro when you otherwise wouldn't be allowed to. But good luck convincing PGI to change something which is that fundamental.

um thats the whole point. buffing endo/ferro should only benefit the mechs that take endo/ferro. thats the only way it makes sense.

you dont buff all IS mechs because IS endo/ferro sucks. you just buff IS endo/ferro and then only the IS mechs that take endo/ferro should benefit from it.

again, thats why balancing with quirks is ridiculous and doesnt work. its better to balance every piece of equipment individually on its own merits, than to try balance unequal tech using generalized quirks, where the results vary heavily depending on the mech.

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

You have to balance on expected combinations; individual items alone will yield nothing useful.

[Mcgral18]

Nightbird, on 16 June 2018 - 03:42 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...43#entry6107443



9KDR, 3.6WLR, rank 6, 6SPL Cheata

Ah, some Potato Land play?


I guess we won't be seeing it in MWOWC 2018, so fair
But you'll note, you never see that particular build in comp anymore...though the mech itself does see play alongside the Lynx & Wolf

[Nightbird]

Mcgral18, on 16 June 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

Ah, some Potato Land play?


I guess we won't be seeing it in MWOWC 2018, so fair
But you'll note, you never see that particular build in comp anymore...though the mech itself does see play alongside the Lynx & Wolf

If all weapons have to be made good enough for comp play, I can't wait to see the planned changes for LRMs.

Edited by Nightbird, 16 June 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[Ghost of Kerensky]

I support moving most clan lasers slightly toward lower damage and higher rate of fire, but only if that means slightly lower burn times too. I figure between a damage nerf + the recent ghost heat nerfs to clan lasers they wouldn't need massive burn times. Just a little something to make them less vicious for their tonnage (this coming from a shark, heh). The only clan lasers I want buffed is maybe the rof of pulse lasers (a bit)
Can't support buffing cER or heavy smalls though, or even really ER microes (just a light backup weapon anyway).
And buffing clan SRMs? I know they spread but they're so damn light. Multi SRM 4s or 6s with or without Artemis are some of my favourite weapons, and I'm not even exactly good with them. Happy little shotguns of doom, even if they need a bunch of hardpoints to be a primary weapon.
Clan ACs... I dunno, they seem to be limited to heavier mechs to really shine but I figure that's the way it is with Autocannons being heavy and cold. I've never had much issue with making them work. Velocity buffs would be fine but only if they were small. Ammo's being buffed too.
Gauss changes

Edited by Ghost of Kerensky, 16 June 2018 - 06:00 PM.

[Khobai]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 June 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

You have to balance on expected combinations; individual items alone will yield nothing useful.

If all the individual pieces of equipment are balanced then you cant have any broken combos.

the whole way you get a broken combo in the first place is by combining two or more inherently broken weapons or pieces of equipment that synergize with eachother. a combo is only as strong as its combined individual elements.

like clan laser vomit is broken because CERML is a completely broken weapon. 7 damage for 1 ton is stupid and the damage needs to be lowered to 6. nerf CERML and all the combos that include CERML will become way more balanced.

besides if weve learned anything by now, its that generalized balancing with quirks doesnt work... so why keep doing the same thing that doesnt work? Its time to balance everything meticulously at the individual level, because that actually will work.

Instead of using goofy quirks, they need to balance everything around tonnage/crit slots. The more tonnage/crit slots something takes up the better it should be. Because tonnage/crits are the balancing currency of battletech and MWO.

So like ISDHS should be better than CDHS because they cost more crit slots. Thats common sense.

Edited by Khobai, 16 June 2018 - 09:23 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Break everything. If everything is OP then everything is balanced.

Flamers need more dps. Light ppcs need a rate of fire increase and how they are counted towards ghost heat with other ppcs rework.. or even a near hitscan velocity buff. Cause right not you can carry 1, but in other situations ghost heat or just a carrying a normal ppcs makes them useless.

Narc needs double ammo
tag needs to increase missile velocity(lrms streaks ATMS)
BAP needs more range of counter ecm or at least to degrade 1 level of ecm, stealth to norm. Or norm to none.

Ultra ac's should become charge to double tap. The way there are right now is crappy.
Heavy lasers could also use a charge mechanic. (instead of nerfing their damage)

Racs need a faster charge up/ less charge up decay.(ability to manually control semi auto fire) Instead of always being on full auto.

Edited by ManDaisy, 16 June 2018 - 10:00 PM.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

Khobai, on 16 June 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

If all the individual pieces of equipment are balanced then you cant have any broken combos.

... a combo is only as strong as its combined individual elements.

Blatantly wrong you know. Combinations and synergy introduce a whole other dimension of complexity and factors to consider.
A combination is much more than the flat sum of it's parts and that's a solid fact.
You won't get far boating too many Gauss rifles unless you're a heavier assault mech, or trying to squeeze a brawl out of a quad of small IS lasers or machine guns. But they can be made effective through synergy and build balancing in combination with other weapons, making something better than simply this weapon's effectiveness + this weapon's effectiveness. And then of course there's individual players' skills and playstyles to take into account, which is also more complex than a slider with "bad at mwo" at one end and "good at mwo" at the other making some weapons seem better or worse than their raw stats.

Edited by Sir Immortal Shadow, 17 June 2018 - 06:38 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 16 June 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

If all the individual pieces of equipment are balanced then you cant have any broken combos.

Yes you can. Things balanced by themselves do not necessarily sum together linearly.

[Sjorpha]

Being stronger than the sum of it's parts is basically the definition of a combo.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes you can. Things balanced by themselves do not necessarily sum together linearly.

obviously.

but if the individual parts are weaker, the end result is far less likely to be broken.

if CERML is nerfed then any combo CERML is used in will also be weaker by extension.

thats why balancing individual elements works. because it also weakens combos.

dunno why thats so hard to grasp.

Quote

Being stronger than the sum of it's parts is basically the definition of a combo.

if the addends are smaller than the sum is also going to be smaller. And the end result will be less even if theres a synergistic bonus.

its simple math.

for example say CERML=2, and HLL=2, and when CERML and HLL are used together you get a +1 synergy bonus. So thats basically 2+2=5

If you nerf CERML to only be = 1 and nerf HLL = 1. Even if you still give a +1 synergy bonus, now its only 1+1=3. since 3 < 5 the overall combo is now weaker.

by balancing the individual pieces separately you have weakened the combo. even though the synergy still exists.

so I really dont know what youre talking about. You dont need to balance around combos. Because balancing individual weapons will inherently balance combos on its own.

and make no mistake, CERML at 7 damage is a really broken weapon. its basically 40% better than the IS version of the same weapon. CERML really needs its damage lowered to 6.

Edited by Khobai, 17 June 2018 - 08:33 AM.

[Remover of Obstacles]

https://mwomercs.com...pon-balance-21/

[The6thMessenger]

I still want that 1.0 damage from RAC2. Also those velocity buffs for the RACs, are good.

The PPCs should also be able to fire 3 at once, to compete with firing 2 HPPCs. The problem with poke is that it's really just which weapon allows you to deal the most damage in the shortest of time, and the HPPC will invariably triump the poke.

Allowing PPCs matching 30 damage makes it competitive to the HPPC, by allowing a faster firing heavier version of the 30 damage poke.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 June 2018 - 09:10 PM.

[Excalibaard]

I quite liked the reduced shellcount of cACs. As long as it's less than the cUACs it gives them a 'more pinpoint' niche that currently only the Clan Gauss seems to fulfill. Why did you choose to change this?

[Y E O N N E]

Excalibaard, on 26 June 2018 - 11:50 PM, said:

I quite liked the reduced shellcount of cACs. As long as it's less than the cUACs it gives them a 'more pinpoint' niche that currently only the Clan Gauss seems to fulfill. Why did you choose to change this?

Because it rendered the IS ACs unappealing from a holistic point of view.

[Gas Guzzler]

Judging by the Chris Lowrey balance post I'm getting the impression you guys are being blatantly ignored, which is most unfortunate. Just kidding, they are nerfing Clan laser weapons so they are taking that suggestion but ignoring everything else and adding CGauss recoil (reticle shake I presume).

I stop paying attention for a while and lo and behold, we have achieved the status quo.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 June 2018 - 09:43 AM.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

Judging by the Chris Lowrey balance post I'm getting the impression you guys are being blatantly ignored, which is most unfortunate. Just kidding, they are nerfing Clan laser weapons so they are taking that suggestion but ignoring everything else and adding CGauss recoil (reticle shake I presume).

I stop paying attention for a while and lo and behold, we have achieved the status quo.

There was an earlier post where Chris explained the proposed changes here balanced toward to top a.k.a. power creep. They wanted to balance towards the mean. The response from the authors was our way or the highway. I wouldn't call this ignored.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 27 June 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

There was an earlier post where Chris explained the proposed changes here balanced toward to top a.k.a. power creep. They wanted to balance towards the mean. The response from the authors was our way or the highway. I wouldn't call this ignored.

Fair enough. Like I said I haven't been paying attention.

Still, Clan Gauss recoil is dumb AF. (HGauss recoil is also dumb AF IMO).

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Fair enough. Like I said I haven't been paying attention.

Still, Clan Gauss recoil is dumb AF. (HGauss recoil is also dumb AF IMO).

I expect 0 impact to you owning in your assaults

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 27 June 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

I expect 0 impact to you owning in your assaults

Lol well I would have to play for it to impact my assault play. Struggling to find the motivation