347 replies to this topic

[Vesper11]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

Still, Clan Gauss recoil is dumb AF. (HGauss recoil is also dumb AF IMO).

I think those are fun, they add weight too. New/different mechanics are fun, don't want same weapon different damage "muh DPS" spreadsheetland of boredom.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vesper11, on 27 June 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

I think those are fun, they add weight too. New/different mechanics are fun, don't want same weapon different damage "muh DPS" spreadsheetland of boredom.

That's cool and all but why are all the "fun new/different mechanics" stacked on the same weapon? Charge up + zOMG weapon explosion + recoil now?

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

That's cool and all but why are all the "fun new/different mechanics" stacked on the same weapon? Charge up + zOMG weapon explosion + recoil now?

Because it's got great range, super high velocity, great damage, no heat and no drawbacks until you've already gutted the mech anyway.

I'd like no recoil on single gauss but recoil on 2xgauss. Way more on 2xHGauss than 2xCGauss, 0 recoil on 2xISGauss.

Given that CGauss is flat out superior in all ways to ISGauss how do you propose balancing them? What does CGauss lose or get nerfed by? You buff ISGauss and you nerf already iffy IS Balistics by comparison.

Gauss is and has always been a ****** outlier for balance. It's got a unique role; super low heat, great damage, long range, stellar accuracy ballistic. You take that away and it's just AC15. You leave it and you need to make it inferior to other ballistics while still keeping it effective at its role. That's always going to be a juggle.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 27 June 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

Because it's got great range, super high velocity, great damage, no heat and no drawbacks until you've already gutted the mech anyway.

I'd like no recoil on single gauss but recoil on 2xgauss. Way more on 2xHGauss than 2xCGauss, 0 recoil on 2xISGauss.

Given that CGauss is flat out superior in all ways to ISGauss how do you propose balancing them? What does CGauss lose or get nerfed by? You buff ISGauss and you nerf already iffy IS Balistics by comparison.

Gauss is and has always been a ****** outlier for balance. It's got a unique role; super low heat, great damage, long range, stellar accuracy ballistic. You take that away and it's just AC15. You leave it and you need to make it inferior to other ballistics while still keeping it effective at its role. That's always going to be a juggle.

As the game stands now, dakka is much more powerful on the IS side than IS Gauss, so IS Gauss deserves a buff. IMO, slightly lower cooldown and making explosions more rare/non-existent is how I would balance it. Why would you ever take dual IS Gauss and some lasers on an assault when you can take 6 UAC2s and out-burst DPS AND out-DPS at 800m?

IS gauss isn't an outlier for balance at all which disproves that statement right there..

In order to have a serious discussion you first need to admit that IS Gauss is nowhere near the dominant ballistic weapon on the IS side. The irony is cGauss would still be better even with the recoil if IS Gauss is left alone. The recoil is annoying and unfun, but still leaves the weapon in good shape.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:

As the game stands now, dakka is much more powerful on the IS side than IS Gauss, so IS Gauss deserves a buff. IMO, slightly lower cooldown and making explosions more rare/non-existent is how I would balance it. Why would you ever take dual IS Gauss and some lasers on an assault when you can take 6 UAC2s and out-burst DPS AND out-DPS at 800m?

IS gauss isn't an outlier for balance at all which disproves that statement right there..

In order to have a serious discussion you first need to admit that IS Gauss is nowhere near the dominant ballistic weapon on the IS side. The irony is cGauss would still be better even with the recoil if IS Gauss is left alone. The recoil is annoying and unfun, but still leaves the weapon in good shape.

It's not right now but it has been, repeatedly, before. The only reason it's not right now was a series of buffs to IS ballistics which were absolute **** tier for a long time.

I'm all for reducing the explosion potential on ISGauss and reducing cooldown - the problem is that the very moment it's comparable to boated UAC2s it immediately replaces U/AC2s, because near hitscan, no heat, no facetime like AC2s need, etc.

That's what I mean about outlier. It's always been absolutely dominant - except when it's pretty much useless.

The Anni will probably always be more of a boated UAC/AC mech just because of low speed, high armor. Not like it's going to stick and move. Also for poke/trade CGaussvomit is so stupidly strong by comparison there's just nothing the IS brings to that role that a Clan mech doesn't do 10x better, probably for less tonnage.

So Clans are potentially getting lasers dialed back and some sort of shake to gauss (hopefully just 2xgauss), does that make IS gaussvomit trade mechs viable? If not, why and how do you fix that without then making ISGaussvomit mechs just flat out superior to the majority of IS ballistic options?

Cuz we've done this balance seesaw before. Now we've got UACs and different mechs and quirks so maybe we can do it better.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 27 June 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's not right now but it has been, repeatedly, before. The only reason it's not right now was a series of buffs to IS ballistics which were absolute **** tier for a long time.

I'm all for reducing the explosion potential on ISGauss and reducing cooldown - the problem is that the very moment it's comparable to boated UAC2s it immediately replaces U/AC2s, because near hitscan, no heat, no facetime like AC2s need, etc.

That's what I mean about outlier. It's always been absolutely dominant - except when it's pretty much useless.

The Anni will probably always be more of a boated UAC/AC mech just because of low speed, high armor. Not like it's going to stick and move. Also for poke/trade CGaussvomit is so stupidly strong by comparison there's just nothing the IS brings to that role that a Clan mech doesn't do 10x better, probably for less tonnage.

So Clans are potentially getting lasers dialed back and some sort of shake to gauss (hopefully just 2xgauss), does that make IS gaussvomit trade mechs viable? If not, why and how do you fix that without then making ISGaussvomit mechs just flat out superior to the majority of IS ballistic options?

Cuz we've done this balance seesaw before. Now we've got UACs and different mechs and quirks so maybe we can do it better.

There is no dual gauss IS assault that I would take over a 6 UAC2 Mauler, its not even close. Even if they made my suggested changes it still wouldn't be as good. The only reason it works on Clan assaults is because they can stack SO MUCH damage on top of them.

Also, I'm pretty sure IS gauss hasn't been dominant since the Dragon Slayer was dominant, which is a really long time ago.

So no, IS Gauss Vomit still sucks. MLs are too short range, ER MLs are too hot, and both don't do enough damage. You don't have the tonnage to bring 3 LLs with dual gauss and NOT be a land yacht, and thats all piddly damage anyway (57? please...) You would need to stack 3 LLs and 3 ERMLs on a 90-100 tonner with adequate heat efficiency (read: IS heat gen quirks) for it to be workable. IS dakka is stronk. I even like UAC5s plus some combo of PPCs but that doesn't seem to catch on so maybe I just get lucky with it.

Heavy Goose vomit hits hard enough to be worth it, at a shorter range though.

[Nightbird]

Only dual IS goose mech of any worth is the warhammer, with 4-6 ML. On IS assaults the hardpoints have been crippling. A 2B 8E 100 tonner allowing dual gauss 2LL 6ML is buildable, but PGI will never release such a mech to balance things out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 27 June 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Only dual IS goose mech of any worth is the warhammer, with 4-6 ML. On IS assaults the hardpoints have been crippling. A 2B 8E 100 tonner allowing dual gauss 2LL 6ML is buildable, but PGI will never release such a mech to balance things out.

Yeah that one is okay, until you get tickled in the back by a Piranha

[MischiefSC]

Nope, Gauss was actually still strong after the gauss chargeup. It didn't get replaced until about the time of the skill tree and associated buffs to ballistics. That's when the UAC5s/AC5s/AC2s actually got good enough to take. Before that it was 2xgauss snipers and gauss+peeps. IS gauss only got dialed back before that by the vastly super CGauss+CERPPCs. Gausspeep TBR was a thing even for a bit after TBR got turned into a graceless potato.

That's the point. Gauss was flat out superior for IS ballistics until IS ballistics were better than Gauss in the same role - at which point all the negatives of Gauss made it irrelevant.

So how are you going to buff gauss to make it worth taking over AC2s, without nerfing AC2s?

Nightbird, on 27 June 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Only dual IS goose mech of any worth is the warhammer, with 4-6 ML. On IS assaults the hardpoints have been crippling. A 2B 8E 100 tonner allowing dual gauss 2LL 6ML is buildable, but PGI will never release such a mech to balance things out.

Yeah, IS can't have something with Clan level of firepower - that would be broken.... right?

I'm all for buffing IS Gauss. All for it - so long as you don't end up pushing out other IS ballistics.

[Requiemking]

So, as is to be expected, PGI ignored this, but honestly, what did you expect? Paul flat out said they wouldn't consider community suggestions unless they have 100% community support, which I assume he also means the silent ones in game. Since it is virtually impossible to get 100% support on the forums, let alone the silent ones, Paul basically said that they won't consider community suggestions period.

[MischiefSC]

Community suggestions are full of more terrible and stupid ideas than they are great ones. Democracy isn't actually that effective or efficient of a method of organizing big groups of people - it's just the one that feels fair to the most people.

However there's good reason that businesses are not run as democracies. Or laboratories, or medical research, or, well, most stuff.

Someone having an opinion is not the same as having a useful opinion. At some point you need to sort out the useful ideas from all the rest and that requires someone to have the authority to do so. At which point you realize you don't need or have value in 99.999% of the opinions out there, because they are bad and based on a LACK of understanding the topic.

However a raft of suggestions on a specific bandwidth of a topic by people with a demonstrated familiarity with the topic is useful. Maybe PGI is looking at it; the PTS changes seem to take some of it into account. We'll see how that plays out.

[Nightbird]

^This

Will happily have my suggestions ignored if all the other dumb ones will be as well, but given what keeps getting implemented I keep trying.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

^This

Will happily have my suggestions ignored if all the other dumb ones will be as well, but given what keeps getting implemented I keep trying.

Is being able to shoot 3 PPC before ghost heat to compete with 2x HPPC a bad idea?

[Nightbird]

The6thMessenger, on 28 June 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

Is being able to shoot 3 PPC before ghost heat to compete with 2x HPPC a bad idea?

2gauss 1ppc for 40 pinpoint is something PGI will not bring back.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

2gauss 1ppc for 40 pinpoint is something PGI will not bring back.

Yeah, but 3 PPC for 30 Pinpoint, versus 2 PPC for 30 pinpoint, the PPC would only need 1 more ton, 1 more slot and 1 more hardpoint for -1s of CD. If you're wondering how could they link 3 PPCS = 2 HPPC, just know they already have 3 LPPC = to 2 PPCs or 2 HPPCs or 2 GR or 2 SNPPC -- apparently they can do that. That means 3x PPC is possible, without making 2x PPC + GR or 2x GR + PPC possible for IS.

Check it: https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 June 2018 - 05:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I have no issue with 3 regular IS PPCs being able to be shot together. Gives it a worthwhile balance factor. I mean it's going to be pretty much too hot anyway.

[Nightbird]

3xPPC also brings back 2 Gauss +PPC, I don't mind it but PGI does.

[Y E O N N E]

PGI would have to increase the GH limit on Gauss, too.

Otherwise, the limit for Gauss+PPC is still enforcing one of each.

[Nightbird]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 June 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

PGI would have to increase the GH limit on Gauss, too.

Otherwise, the limit for Gauss+PPC is still enforcing one of each.

The GH for 3 gauss is only 1.5 heat. If shooting 3ppcs has no GH, then shotting 2gauss 1ppc will use the GH from gauss, 1.5 heat. This won't deter anyone as it's heat neutral with 10 dhs.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 28 June 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

Nope, Gauss was actually still strong after the gauss chargeup. It didn't get replaced until about the time of the skill tree and associated buffs to ballistics. That's when the UAC5s/AC5s/AC2s actually got good enough to take.

Dragon Slayer was dominant long after Gauss chargeup so that doesn't contradict me. It got replaced LONG before the skill tree. In fact, long before the Clans dropped, the Gauss-ERPPC-PPC Dragon Slayer was on par with the AC5-PPC Dragon Slayer... the latter was just better for a slightly shorter range. And... it was basically downhill from there for IS Gauss once the Clans dropped.

IS Gauss was pretty much abandoned once Resistance Pack 2 dropped. UAC5s were good enough to take once the Mauler could bring 4 of them, and AC5s were good enough to take once the Mauler could bring 5.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 June 2018 - 09:25 AM.