845 replies to this topic

[Excalibaard]

High alpha and laser dominance isn't limited to clan. Nerf current gaussvomit and another meta build that smartly avoids the solutions will rise, like cutting the head off a hydra and another growing in its place. The way I see it there's a weapon-specific and a broad change that can be made. The latter has been suggested many timea already, so I start with the weapon-specific one.

Weapon-specific balancing-in-a-void: Energy Rebalance 3.0,
I suggest looking into synchronising the damage-per-tick. The biggest problem with clan alpha is when the damage indicator is slow and your mech takes a while to twist, so the beam duration ends before you can shake it off. Increase beam durations proportional to the damage and laser weapon size/type.
IS ML 5 damage in 1 second? Then IS ERML 5 damage in 1.25 seconds (compensation for extra range) and clan ERML 7 damage in 1.75 seconds. IS MPL has improved DPT for costing more tonnage and having higher HPS, so deals 5 damage in 0.75 seconds? Then clan MPL deals 7 dmg in 1.05 seconds.
Different base values for uL, SL and LL: for example the IS LL could be set to 10 dmg in 1.5 seconds and adjustments are made from there for the separate weapon types. You may end up with an incredible beam duration of 3 seconds on the HLL, but that seems thematic for the absurdly hot and powerful weapon it's supposed to feel like. This also makes it feel unique as a 'Suppressing laser' that just keeps firing, and increases the skillcap to use, rather than being 'the better ERLL in quickplay'.
The final improvement is that PPCs will be relatively better when the lasers have more spreading to them, without needing to be changed.
In addition to this energy rebalance, you slap a cooldown nerf on the gausses so their DPS per Ton becomes terrible as compensation for the high Damage per Heat. Other DPS weapons can now effectively outtrade Gauss due to having better DPS and more tonnage for speed or loadout improvements. GG.

However, this requires a lot of testing and adjustments and frankly, there's a better idea that has been suggested many times before:

Lower the heat capacity. Either the base value of 30 should be reduced and/or changes to heat sink capacity gain.

As a result, no longer can people fire absurd amounts of lasers or other alpha at the same time. Of course, have a warning when mech alpha exceeds mech heat capacity.

This will shift balance in favor of gauss and other ballistic weaponry due to their superior damage/heat, so assess their power and increase gauss cooldown to reduce their DPS per ton, improving other AC performance. Inversely, PPCs are in a terrible spot as they're already too hot for their intended use as pinpoint alternative for lasers. Reduce PPC heat.

Edited by Excalibaard, 11 June 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[IronEleven]

[redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 15 June 2018 - 01:53 PM.
nonconstructive

[M1Combat]

Roach, on 11 June 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

Here, now I do not miss: I aim and fire and it hits.

[redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 15 June 2018 - 01:53 PM.
nonconstructive

[Xx_M01S7R47JU1C35_xX]

Kerch1253, on 11 June 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

It's not uncommon for veteran players to find newer player's perspectives (in any game) to be myopic, so I'm not offended at all.

I'm not particularly concerned with how fun the game used to be/not be, as I find the game plenty fun right now. I prefer that not change, so I just wanted to give my feedback "vote" while I still had the opportunity. They're welcome to consider it or not, as I'll be voting with my wallet later.

I'm glad you're having fun at the bottom of the fun hill. I mean, it's still a good game. If it wasn't then none of us would be passionate about this conversation. And new player experiences and their feedback is valuable to temper the opinion of the old guard. But be realistic here. You have no real basis to extrapolate an opinion on the long-term health or player enjoyment for this game. That isn't saying your opinion is less valuable. But don't think your opinion is more valuable either. Just be realistic.

Like I said in other words. I'm glad you're having fun and this game is still attracting new players, but game balance has been a long-term issue and it's become progressively less fun and interesting for the majority of us who have been around for /ive or take 5 years have had a lot of time to consider the downward spiral of game balance that is going on. You weren't here to see how we got to this point, but you can still let us know that maybe it isn't as bad as we think it is.

Please dont bring wallet politics in to this though. I've spent over $1k on this game, and still spend more. I know completionists who are over $2500 in the hole. Battletech and MechWarrior fans are notoriously passionate. Your wallet does not give you credibility here. PGI, CGL and HBS know they need to provide quality and passion and that's where we put our money. They have done a good job thus far. It's only the direction everyone is traveling and smaller topics like this that people disagree with.

In the end everyone here wants this game to grow, and for PGI to have a bright future. Everyone has an opinion and feedback is always great, but I don't think community in-fighting and people creating factions is going to help anyone.

[Drunk Canuck]

Tesunie, on 11 June 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Nope, people quit because the game has stagnated and PGI has not shown enough interest in both balancing the game as well as creating a game with fun game modes and new maps. 16 maps in 5 years. 6 game modes in 5 years, and the majority of players don't want to play 2 of them because they are dumb and detract from the player vs player aspect of the game. Faction Play is dead and hasn't seen a new map in almost 3 years, and it died because PGI broke their promises from the initial plans for what Community Warfare was supposed to be way back after the game came out of beta. Spending over a year to make a mediocre game mode isn't acceptable, and once the novelty wore off, the player base started tapering off. I used to play nightly, now I only play one or two nights a week because I can't stand how stagnant the game is and how bad the match making is compared to what it was 3 years ago.

Edited by draiocht, 14 June 2018 - 03:21 AM.
Quote Clean-Up (off-topic reply-chain)

[SneekiBreeki]

^ Totally what canuck said.

[Extra Guac]

Clan gauss doesn't need a nerf.

cERML's are clearly the best weapon in the game, so they might need a slight nerf. But that's it. Please don't make any sweeping, unnecessary changes.

edit: weapons aside, the largest imbalance in the game is the heat sink imbalance. Especially for heavy & assault classes where slots are the limiting factor, rather than tonnage.

IS heat sinks take up 50% more slots, but in reality that results in more than a 50% imbalance, because IS energy builds often have 6 slots that are completely wasted (the legs and CT). The fact that clan endo steel structure only consumes 7 slots further exacerbates the heat sink imbalance.

That's why a fight between a vomit Battlemaster vs a vomit MAD-IIC is over before it starts.

Edited by Deepfryer, 11 June 2018 - 05:17 PM.

[Jman5]

I don't know if anyone will even read this, but I thought I would just talk about what I find challenging and frustrating when facing Heavy/Assault laser boats.

In theory a laserboat is supposed to be this big hot mech that can let off a strong alphastrike, but does not have the heat endurance to deal with a sustained fight. Unfortunately this often breaks down in a couple ways. First, the sheer quantity of Double Heatsinks these larger clan mechs can carry make their heat dissipate quite quickly. Second, the existence of coolshots are their "get out of jail free" card if anyone does decide to force an engagement. On top of that coolshot works better with more heatsinks so they're even more potent than usual.

So a player who builds his mech for short range endurance with superior sustained DPS than these laserboats doesn't do as well as he should. The laserboat may simply use one of its two coolshots to give it a couple other mega-alphas and tear yet more components off. The heatsinks are also working in overtime all that time.

Basically what I'm saying is that it doesn't feel like mechs that are supposed to be hot pokers pay enough of a price when they're forced into an extended short range engagement.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe change coolshot to not be based on heatsink count. Maybe show consumables in paper doll. Maybe reduce dissipation rate of heatsinks across the board. All I know is that it's too forgiving for these mid-long range pokers when they're forced out of their niche.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Deepfryer, on 11 June 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

Clan gauss doesn't need a nerf.

cERML's are clearly the best weapon in the game, so they might need a slight nerf. But that's it. Please don't make any sweeping, unnecessary changes.

Not even best, they just synergise both with C-ERLL and C-Gauss like no other weapons in game as well as having meta shifted towards sluggish one-two 60-100 alpha kill mechs after agility nerfs.

[Drunk Canuck]

Deepfryer, on 11 June 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

Clan gauss doesn't need a nerf.

cERML's are clearly the best weapon in the game, so they might need a slight nerf. But that's it. Please don't make any sweeping, unnecessary changes.

They've been the best weapon bar none since they came out. Heck, when we did the Clan vs IS PTS group drops prior to Clan Wave 1, we proved a lot of things and some are still relevant today. We broke the server running Nova's with 4 MG's entirely on one team, and we proved that the ER ML was far too powerful even back then. It's still the best weapon today because PGI didn't bother to reduce it's damage to 6 like was suggested.

[SneekiBreeki]

denAirwalkerrr, on 11 June 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Not even best, they just synergise both with C-ERLL and C-Gauss like no other weapons in game as well as having meta shifted towards sluggish one-two 60-100 alpha kill mechs after agility nerfs.

^ The only true solution would be a baseline agility buff TBH.

Edited by SneekiBreeki, 11 June 2018 - 05:04 PM.

[Liveish]

Chris/PGI.

Can we please stop killing High skill, High ceiling game play.


Why does it have to be Nerf, Why can you not buff the brawler mechs so they can twist, have higher DPS and the SRMS more pin point than now.

Give both play styles the a way forward, then people with skill can pull both types off.


You would not need to NERF NERF NERF, if you set up counters when you buff or bring out a new mechs.


Also why do OP as hell mechs have such good quirks when they come out, surely this does not help???

Edited by live1991, 11 June 2018 - 05:12 PM.

[BARRY SHlTPEAS]

Reduce the size of the IS double heat sink from 3 slots to 2. Problem solved.

Whilst this point is slightly off topic, would you consider a nerf to the volume level of the intro sounds and solaris crowd shouting in the launcher? Pretty much deafens me every time I launch the game.

Edited by Verticorda, 11 June 2018 - 05:26 PM.

[El Bandito]

Personally I am of the mind that TTK should be increased, and most balance changes should strive towards that--especially regarding big Clan alphas, and IS dual HGR. I will have better feedback once PGI decides exactly on what to do.

Jman5, on 11 June 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone will even read this, but I thought I would just talk about what I find challenging and frustrating when facing Heavy/Assault laser boats.

In theory a laserboat is supposed to be this big hot mech that can let off a strong alphastrike, but does not have the heat endurance to deal with a sustained fight. Unfortunately this often breaks down in a couple ways. First, the sheer quantity of Double Heatsinks these larger clan mechs can carry make their heat dissipate quite quickly. Second, the existence of coolshots are their "get out of jail free" card if anyone does decide to force an engagement. On top of that coolshot works better with more heatsinks so they're even more potent than usual.

So a player who builds his mech for short range endurance with superior sustained DPS than these laserboats doesn't do as well as he should. The laserboat may simply use one of its two coolshots to give it a couple other mega-alphas and tear yet more components off. The heatsinks are also working in overtime all that time.

Exactly. My Deathstrike can alpha THREE times, back to back, thanks to its 29 DHS and Coolshots. Seems PGI's own system is biting them in the arse.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 June 2018 - 05:19 PM.

[IronEleven]

El Bandito, on 11 June 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Personally I am of the mind that TTK should be increased, and most balance changes should strive towards that--especially regarding big Clan alphas, and IS dual HGR. I will have better feedback once PGI decides exactly on what to do.

Weapon nerfs aren't going to fix getting wrecked when you walk into a bad position.

[denAirwalkerrr]

IronEleven, on 11 June 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

Weapon nerfs aren't going to fix getting wrecked when you walk into a bad position.

Until you nerf them to the point when ramming will be dealing more damage.

[El Bandito]

Really wish PGI had plans to address base tech balance first, then there woulda been less need for dramatic weapon changes.

IronEleven, on 11 June 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

Weapon nerfs aren't going to fix getting wrecked when you walk into a bad position.

Sometimes you have to walk into a bad position, especially in Invasion maps. Increased TTK--especially regarding the weapon systems I mentioned above--will allow one better fighting chance.

denAirwalkerrr, on 11 June 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Until you nerf them to the point when ramming will be dealing more damage.

Stop being dramatic. Unless one is a total buffoon, one should know that PGI is not talking about such drastic nerfs. Increased TTK from nerfing certain offending alphas will also benefit light and medium classes the most, which is also welcome.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 June 2018 - 05:59 PM.

[SneekiBreeki]

denAirwalkerrr, on 11 June 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

Until you nerf them to the point when ramming will be dealing more damage.

And unfortunately this seems to be the direction this game is headed to... *Sigh*

[Andi Nagasia]

personally,

id like to see option 2 for C-Gauss,
i feel decreasing the Damage or other Stats will hurt the weapon too much,
thats not to say it shouldnt be balanced, giving it a shake could very well balance this,

as a proponent for all Clan Lasers getting -1Damage -1Heat (-10% cooldown) im all for C-Lasers option 1,
i think bringing C-Lasers closer to IS-Lasers would help better balance the tech Bases, and balance in general,
i would also support all Small Lasers getting 4Damage(IS) and 5Dam(Clan) to keep them viable

[Lurch98]

That face when the balance guy thinks he needs to focus on Clan Gauss and not Piranhas. GG