211 replies to this topic

[Bishop Six]

GweNTLeR, on 15 June 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

[/size]
The case you described could happen, but a more likely outcome is that GOOD players (in groups) and teams will start using LRM instead of other direct fire weapons, since they will provide basically the same battle efficiency as other weapons and could actually shine in teamplay. There are plenty of situations when indirect is a better option than direct. I have already fought several battles against higher than average unit in CW which was spamming LRM supernovas on Alpine. I have to admit, THAT WAS effective. A spotter was providing just enough info for 3-4 supernovas to land LRM80 on a single mech (-35-40% of that mech).
And BTW, a good narcer/tagger CAN actually turn tables into his favor even in potato lurm team, so I guess many good players will just switch to scouts IF that happens.

You see, the whole history of human warfare is a fight between a sword and a shield. AMS is not a shield for a single person - it is a team shield. Just like LURMs, which shine when used properly in a team. A single AMS can easily take down a NARC(and hence save your life) or take down 3-4 missiles out of a volley. A lance with AMS on each mech can cut in a half efficiency of a single Lurm boat. It is YOUR OWN choice not to pick AMS, because you think that it is useless. You take the risk. But as a team - it is worthy to communicate and agree to pick AMS on some mechs in a dropdeck to dramatically decrease incoming damage. Too bad a few people understand it.

PGI can't do collision. You are asking for impossible.

100 % agree GweNTLer

I dont get it that guys are thinking AMS is useless.

1,5 - 3 tons per mech you can save for Anti-Missile-activities and it IS a team weapon and a mighty one.

I saw whole teams standing on the other side useless and without any idea what to do. They fired and fired and didnt come through.

We literally had a WWII-Flak Fire, standing in a pack and we were laughing like the warriors in "300" covered behind their shields while the rain of arrows...eh...Lurms didnt hit anything!

But yeah, there you can see who is playing with the team and who is only on his own.

Also yes, my Stealth-Narcer-Commando will shine in future

So people, bring AMS & ECM!

Edit:
There are mighty 2xAMS-Chassis - even with quirks on range and/or energy heat (which is affecting Laser-AMS)

You ever saw a lance 2xLaserAMS-Grashoppers? Its beautiful

Edited by Bishop Six, 16 June 2018 - 01:20 AM.

[Serial Number]

No fix to dmg not counting for arms being destroyed together with ST? Or was it intentional?

Edited by Serial Number, 17 June 2018 - 03:37 AM.

[Infamati Et Obliterati]

I find it funny that everyone is complaining about no AMS buff to go with the LRM buff. However, even a single AMS is enough to slaughter ATM damage output already. Increasing it will make ATMs fairly useless. MTMs are less affected by AMS because of the number of rounds fired. Thats not true for ATMs when most mechs are firing less than 20 ATMs at a time.

Maybe you guys should think a little more before crying about indirect fire, that doesn't even matter to a decent pilot.

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

I've called coordinated drops against a coordinated unit that was basically trolling group queue with lrm spam and good spotters.

They beat us twice, so we brought about a dozen AMS spread across several mechs on our team, and almost everyone had a short/mid range build. (several srm brawlers) We just methodically murderballed around the map killing the enemies with ease as we encountered them. The only real time consumed was finding and chasing them all down. I remember the last few of their lrm boats being huddled up, and us approaching them over open ground for hundreds of meters. They tried to focus my mech down, but I took literally zero dmg. Watching so many missiles come at me, and they all vanish, some really close to hitting, was super fun. They salted out of group queue after that, making it a topic of jokes for us for several more drops after.

[MovinTarget]

Just give anyone below tier 3 ams with 1/2 of ammo duct taped to the back of their mech... no extra charge

[Aramuside]

ShooteyMcShooterson, on 16 June 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

I've called coordinated drops against a coordinated unit that was basically trolling group queue with lrm spam and good spotters.

They beat us twice, so we brought about a dozen AMS spread across several mechs on our team, and almost everyone had a short/mid range build. (several srm brawlers) We just methodically murderballed around the map killing the enemies with ease as we encountered them. The only real time consumed was finding and chasing them all down. I remember the last few of their lrm boats being huddled up, and us approaching them over open ground for hundreds of meters. They tried to focus my mech down, but I took literally zero dmg. Watching so many missiles come at me, and they all vanish, some really close to hitting, was super fun. They salted out of group queue after that, making it a topic of jokes for us for several more drops after.

That really doesn't help anyone playing solo in the normal queue though does it? Which is of course the majority of players.

I love my multi AMS mechs but its a real sacrifice to run them in quick play as the best reward is that warm and fuzzy feeling which is generally ruined when your team no longer deathballs or the other side doesn't bring many missiles. The irony being if people are deathballing odds are you'll almost always win anyway.

The issue gets even more exacerbated when you run with laser ams and the other side has plenty of missiles... because then you really have to prioritise your "shield" so can't generate high damage as you're almost certainly running energy weapons to fit in with the crit/weight cost of the multiple LAMS/AMS/ammo ... so your xp/c-bills actually gets shafted. Team benefits.... but you take the hit. Not very appetising solo.

[ilKhan_OrHan]

Blood Asp changes are awesome, thanks guys

Silent majority is not voicing opinion but majority is happy with lore accurate Blood Asp ST rails. Extra hardpoint is awesomesauce gravy.

Everyone is trying hard as they can to get me out of this mech, so I don't believe the extended ST will change that.

These guys would complain even if this game was the ultimate MechWarrior 10/10 experience.

Edited by ilKhan_OrHan, 18 June 2018 - 04:39 AM.

[Buenaventura]

If I read that correct, it isn't an extra hardpoint, just the rails hosting 2 instead of just one:

Quote

The above mentioned shoulder mounted weapons nacelles can now equip a maximum of two weapons a piece (as one hardpoint has been relocated from the torso).

[Herr Flow]

Yeah - the Blood Asp is finally as beautiful as it was depicted in the concept art! Thank you, PGI, for listening to the community! I'll gladly take the higher risk for side torso damage as a trade-off! Besides: peaking will be loads of fun now with the new setup!

[Jaspbo1]

Infamati Et Obliterati, on 16 June 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

I find it funny that everyone is complaining about no AMS buff to go with the LRM buff. However, even a single AMS is enough to slaughter ATM damage output already. Increasing it will make ATMs fairly useless. MTMs are less affected by AMS because of the number of rounds fired. Thats not true for ATMs when most mechs are firing less than 20 ATMs at a time.

Maybe you guys should think a little more before crying about indirect fire, that doesn't even matter to a decent pilot.

AMS and ECM are the only counter to ATMs. I abuse the hell out of ATMs on the Summoner, one of the guys in the units runs them on a Night Gyr and am kinda surprised they haven't been nerfed already. It's so easy to get a 800+ game out of them, especially if you poptart, 3 damage per missile is devastating, paired with HE Missile skills and you're one of the scariest 'mechs on the field. It's a hilarious myth that ATMs are borderline useless.

If people want AMS buffs though, just pilot the Nova S with the 3xAMS Hardpoints and do something ridiculous like 400+ Anti missile damage every 0.7 seconds. It's also a myth that the Kit Fox is the best AMS 'mech, the Nova easily goes beyond it.

[GweNTLeR]

Jaspbo1, on 18 June 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

If people want AMS buffs though, just pilot the Nova S with the 3xAMS Hardpoints and do something ridiculous like 400+ Anti missile damage every 0.7 seconds. It's also a myth that the Kit Fox is the best AMS 'mech, the Nova easily goes beyond it.

There is no NOVA or KFX on IS side in CW. The best you can have is 2xAMS wolfhound with 20% range quirk, which is not really a great choice. The best from the rest have 2 AMS(Atlas K, Stalker 5S...) without range quirk or 1 AMS with general range quirk(uziel...).

[Bishop Six]

GweNTLeR, on 18 June 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

There is no NOVA or KFX on IS side in CW. The best you can have is 2xAMS wolfhound with 20% range quirk, which is not really a great choice. The best from the rest have 2 AMS(Atlas K, Stalker 5S...) without range quirk or 1 AMS with general range quirk(uziel...).

Dont forget the LaserAMS and energy quirks

[GweNTLeR]

Bishop Six, on 18 June 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

Dont forget the LaserAMS and energy quirks

They dont work on LAMS. Just checked on my stalker 5S with energy range quirk. Same range with standart AMS. And even if they would, 2 LAMS produce exactly the same amount of HPS as 3 RAC 2. Pretty doubtful choice.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 18 June 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[Bishop Six]

GweNTLeR, on 18 June 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

They dont work on LAMS. Just checked on my stalker 5S with energy range quirk. Same range with standart AMS. And even if they would, 2 LAMS produce exactly the same amount of HPS as 3 RAC 2. Pretty doubtful choice.

Oh ok. My mistake then.

[Dubbletwice]

Liking the idea of the build save and load feature.

[D V Devnull]

Infamati Et Obliterati, on 16 June 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

I find it funny that everyone is complaining about no AMS buff to go with the LRM buff. However, even a single AMS is enough to slaughter ATM damage output already. Increasing it will make ATMs fairly useless. MTMs are less affected by AMS because of the number of rounds fired. Thats not true for ATMs when most mechs are firing less than 20 ATMs at a time.

Maybe you guys should think a little more before crying about indirect fire, that doesn't even matter to a decent pilot.

Jaspbo1, on 18 June 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

AMS and ECM are the only counter to ATMs. I abuse the hell out of ATMs on the Summoner, one of the guys in the units runs them on a Night Gyr and am kinda surprised they haven't been nerfed already. It's so easy to get a 800+ game out of them, especially if you poptart, 3 damage per missile is devastating, paired with HE Missile skills and you're one of the scariest 'mechs on the field. It's a hilarious myth that ATMs are borderline useless.

If people want AMS buffs though, just pilot the Nova S with the 3xAMS Hardpoints and do something ridiculous like 400+ Anti missile damage every 0.7 seconds. It's also a myth that the Kit Fox is the best AMS 'mech, the Nova easily goes beyond it.

Nice try with your 'Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt Tactic', Jaspbo1... but it failed. Anyone with a good brain in their skull can see right through your line of thinking.

There are a lot more counters against ATMs than just AMS/ECM... For example...

• Underrunning the 120-Meter Minimum Range of ATMs (Renders ATMs worthless to fire...)
  
• AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 2-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 5-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• ER Large Laser (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Heavy Large Laser (Clan -- due to High Range)
  
• Standard Large Laser (I.S. -- due to High Range)

...and that's just 10 quick examples (for starters... more along the lines of 17 examples if you split by tech bases) of what is an even longer listing. While ATMs may have an 1100-Meter Baseline Range, their damage is not that useful beyond 450-500 Meters. Further, if you add in the effects of as little as "40% Radar Deprivation", combined with ducking behind the solid wall of the map terrain itself, then you can fully negate ATMs from Long Range until they're literally right in your face. At that point, you just run in extra close and they don't work at all, which is a huge weak point just like the I.S.'s 180-Meter LRM Minimum Range.

Further, your claim of easy damage REQUIRES that you either have a good team supporting you, or you possess one hell of an unlimited pool of luck. Most of the time for a large percentage of the player base, this is not the case. Whether you like it or not, you're just an anomaly with your poptart-style, 800+ damage games.

---

Frankly right now (and pardon me getting off on a tangent), LRMs (Both I.S. & Clan... no, really!!!) are even more underpowered by comparison to ATM/MRM... LRM spread is just way too wide, making them literally unable to compete against any other weapon system properly. If they all got their spread narrowed by 0.2 on whatever measurement that PGI is using, they would be in the right spot. Along with that, add 50 Meters to LRM Baseline Range, and then the LRM Weapon Systems would NEVER need another Balance-Based Change again. PGI would be able to leave them right there forever.

About the ONLY dream I would have after that point would be for ALL Armor Values on every single Mech out there to be doubled again to 4x TableTop Values. Even boosting just to 3x TableTop Values would be nice! That would stretch Time-To-Kill far enough to end the issues that many experience, ranging from New Players (who are sick of dying before they can learn, by the way), through Casual-Class Players, all the way up to Seasoned Vets... all of which who want a good, well-played fight... and not a slaughterhouse. But like I said, that's a dream... It probably won't ever happen.

~Mr. D. V. "Just stopping by to wreck a narrow scope of thought about Missile Counters..." Devnull




(p.s.: Obliterati's post was only referenced in a split manner so they could easily pick up in the context of this conversation.)

[vonJerg]

From top of my head: if they want to reward active use of LRMs / to punish those hiding behind a rock and leaching on other ppls locks, they could just increase basic spread, but also increase ARTEMIS / NARC /TAG bonuses.

[GweNTLeR]

D V Devnull, on 19 June 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

There are a lot more counters against ATMs than just AMS/ECM... For example...

• Underrunning the 120-Meter Minimum Range of ATMs (Renders ATMs worthless to fire...)
  
• AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 2-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 5-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• ER Large Laser (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Heavy Large Laser (Clan -- due to High Range)
  
• Standard Large Laser (I.S. -- due to High Range)

---

~Mr. D. V. Devnull

Frankly speaking , I agree with Jaspbo1 on his thoughts about ATM. You see, the way PGI implemented ATM makes it a high risk high reward weapon that is not meant (but could be) used from long range. 250m is it's sweet spot where it shines. For me, it is much easier to stay at like 250m afar and shoot ATMs than use some laser vomit or ballistics. Hell, the last time I switched to clans I played exclusively 4HML 4ATM6 timby bacause 112 DAMAGE ALPHA IN YOUR FACE WITH MINIMAL SPREAD. I'm not proud of it, but it was just easy mode on. On that range deprivation doesn't help much, since ATMs fly just abit more than 1s and a single AMS could take down just 4 missiles in best case out of ATM24/27 barrage, which is just 16% of damage.
And since it it a high risk high reward close range weapon, there is nothing unnatural in it being countered by other long range weapons(just like other close range weapons, what a surprise!!! )
You statement about 800 damage being something abnormal for ATM proves that you are just...using it wrong .

Edited by GweNTLeR, 19 June 2018 - 05:18 AM.

[Marius Evander]

D V Devnull, on 19 June 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

Spoiler

Nice try with your 'Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt Tactic', Jaspbo1... but it failed. Anyone with a good brain in their skull can see right through your line of thinking.

There are a lot more counters against ATMs than just AMS/ECM... For example...

• Underrunning the 120-Meter Minimum Range of ATMs (Renders ATMs worthless to fire...)
  
• AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/2 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Ultra AC/5 (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 2-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• LB 5-X AC (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• ER Large Laser (Both I.S. & Clan -- due to Greater Range)
  
• Heavy Large Laser (Clan -- due to High Range)
  
• Standard Large Laser (I.S. -- due to High Range)

...and that's just 10 quick examples (for starters... more along the lines of 17 examples if you split by tech bases) of what is an even longer listing. While ATMs may have an 1100-Meter Baseline Range, their damage is not that useful beyond 450-500 Meters. Further, if you add in the effects of as little as "40% Radar Deprivation", combined with ducking behind the solid wall of the map terrain itself, then you can fully negate ATMs from Long Range until they're literally right in your face. At that point, you just run in extra close and they don't work at all, which is a huge weak point just like the I.S.'s 180-Meter LRM Minimum Range.


Further, your claim of easy damage REQUIRES that you either have a good team supporting you, or you possess one hell of an unlimited pool of luck. Most of the time for a large percentage of the player base, this is not the case. Whether you like it or not, you're just an anomaly with your poptart-style, 800+ damage games.

---

Frankly right now (and pardon me getting off on a tangent), LRMs (Both I.S. & Clan... no, really!!!) are even more underpowered by comparison to ATM/MRM... LRM spread is just way too wide, making them literally unable to compete against any other weapon system properly. If they all got their spread narrowed by 0.2 on whatever measurement that PGI is using, they would be in the right spot. Along with that, add 50 Meters to LRM Baseline Range, and then the LRM Weapon Systems would NEVER need another Balance-Based Change again. PGI would be able to leave them right there forever.

About the ONLY dream I would have after that point would be for ALL Armor Values on every single Mech out there to be doubled again to 4x TableTop Values. Even boosting just to 3x TableTop Values would be nice! That would stretch Time-To-Kill far enough to end the issues that many experience, ranging from New Players (who are sick of dying before they can learn, by the way), through Casual-Class Players, all the way up to Seasoned Vets... all of which who want a good, well-played fight... and not a slaughterhouse. But like I said, that's a dream... It probably won't ever happen.

~Mr. D. V. "Just stopping by to wreck a narrow scope of thought about Missile Counters..." Devnull




(p.s.: Obliterati's post was only referenced in a split manner so they could easily pick up in the context of this conversation.)

You forgot the best counter to ATMs . Walls.

Increasing Armor would actually made seal clubbing and the skill disparity worse not better. 2 players with ct armor of 1, both players just have to hit it for a second enemy dies (COD, CS, etc etc) is a smaller disparity to each player has 100 armor and have to hit the spot 100 times to kill the other, the tater will land 3 shots in the time the good player lands the 100, so they will feel even more deterred.

Maybe my logic is flawed on this one or i am explaining it badly, im really tired, but thats my opinions right now.

[MovinTarget]

Cadoazreal, on 19 June 2018 - 04:59 AM, said:

You forgot the best counter to ATMs . Walls.

Increasing Armor would actually made seal clubbing and the skill disparity worse not better. 2 players with ct armor of 1, both players just have to hit it for a second enemy dies (COD, CS, etc etc) is a smaller disparity to each player has 100 armor and have to hit the spot 100 times to kill the other, the tater will land 3 shots in the time the good player lands the 100, so they will feel even more deterred.

Maybe my logic is flawed on this one or i am explaining it badly, im really tired, but thats my opinions right now.

So you are saying more armor makes hard-to-hit guys last (more) longer than the taters that don't know how to twist/use cover/pay attention?

I would agree with this, but if the point is to keep the lower tier players alive long enough to learn something, then this may extend their experience a bit longer... ...just a bit lol...