864 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Kroete, on 17 June 2018 - 06:57 AM, said:

Its not that good for mwo, that winning is not that important then personal stats.

And that is why the only way to make winning more important is to junk all other stats. Over the long term, a person who wins more that loses must be doing something right.

[Besh]

Kroete, on 17 June 2018 - 06:57 AM, said:

Was an example why the matchscore was earned for the 1000 dmg guy over the 100, give me another word then "vulturing", "securing" (killstealing is not the right word, its a teamgame).
Using lrms, you often let enemys open for your allys, as you let weaponless mechs go, but can be sure there will be at least 2 teammates doing all, including overheating, to "secure" that kill, even when the match gets lost by this.
Its not that good for mwo, that winning is not that important then personal stats.

I totally misunderstood, just like I misunderstood Daggett . Thx for the clarification .

Edited by Besh, 17 June 2018 - 07:13 AM.

[csebal]

Wil McCullough, on 16 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

OK LET ME ASK ALL OF YOU WHO WANT DUOS IN QP THIS QUESTION:

be honest with yourself.

when you and your friend start doing well and racking up good kdrs and wlr in qp, are you guys going to switch to gp? or are you guys going to keep staying in qp bowling skittles?

You wrote this once and it was already a very heavily loaded and underhanded question.
Reading it twice makes me physically sick.

You and your kind base your entire campaign against the idea of small group play and solo play being mixed on the assumption, that the other party simply wants this to gain an advantage. This is simply not true and frankly.. all the talk about me and people like me having some ulterior motive is getting a bit boring and quite insulting.

The truth is very simple: people like me also like to play with friends, however we might not have enough like minded friends to field a full group, nor do we necessarily have the will to take it seriously enough to really be competitive in an organized play environment.
We would simply like to not just play besides, but with each other. To share the experience of having fun, interesting matches... not the experience of getting stomped by 8 man death squads.

For myself, It is not likely I would every really play in group or comp if I would not be forced to, as I am simply not interested in competitive play. I do not care for the game enough to dig so deep into its tactical and mechanical aspects to really be competitive on that level. I am what people usually refer to as a casual player. I play for fun.

So you or anyone else telling me to go and play GP if I want to play with a friend is not really thinking things through. That is like telling some kids on the playground, that if they would like to be on the same team with their friends playing soccer, they should join the world cup or premier league, because they are sure as hell not welcome on the playground where it is each kid to himself.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the days of old when 4 man lances were allowed into queues with solo players. The game was balanced a lot and the matchmaker was changed. While I would still not allow full lances into QP, I do believe that an equal number of 2 or 3 man teams on each side would be a lot less unbalancing than they were before. And yes.. there is a chance that two very good players will dominate, but guess what.. they already do, as even a single good player with a mike can turn the tide of the battle.

Finally, the last argument really: making this happen should not be a big thing really, since there already is group play, it would just be a tweaking of the matchmaker to place small groups into QP queue instead of the GP one. If it does not work out, the same matchmaker tweak can undo it and we can all pretend it never happened.

Not giving it a try because it "might" cause more problems than the ones it surely solves would be just as dumb as many of the arguments against it.

Edited by csebal, 17 June 2018 - 07:48 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I play against groups in every other multiplayer game, including MOBAs where a premade team is even more of an advantage than in MWO.

It shows how anti social the MWO community is that we have such segregated queues.

[Brain Cancer]

Mystere, on 17 June 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

And that is why the only way to make winning more important is to junk all other stats. Over the long term, a person who wins more that loses must be doing something right.

At least in solo queue.

It can mean "I got carried hardcore as the comic relief of my 8-man group", too. Which is another big reason solo and group queue stats should be separated.

[Cloves]

csebal, on 17 June 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

You wrote this once and it was already a very heavily loaded and underhanded question.
Reading it twice makes me physically sick.

You and your kind base your entire campaign against the idea of small group play and solo play being mixed on the assumption, that the other party simply wants this to gain an advantage. This is simply not true and frankly.. all the talk about me and people like me having some ulterior motive is getting a bit boring and quite insulting.

The truth is very simple: people like me also like to play with friends, however we might not have enough like minded friends to field a full group, nor do we necessarily have the will to take it seriously enough to really be competitive in an organized play environment.
We would simply like to not just play besides, but with each other. To share the experience of having fun, interesting matches... not the experience of getting stomped by 8 man death squads.

For myself, It is not likely I would every really play in group or comp if I would not be forced to, as I am simply not interested in competitive play. I do not care for the game enough to dig so deep into its tactical and mechanical aspects to really be competitive on that level. I am what people usually refer to as a casual player. I play for fun.

So you or anyone else telling me to go and play GP if I want to play with a friend is not really thinking things through. That is like telling some kids on the playground, that if they would like to be on the same team with their friends playing soccer, they should join the world cup or premier league, because they are sure as hell not welcome on the playground where it is each kid to himself.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since the days of old when 4 man lances were allowed into queues with solo players. The game was balanced a lot and the matchmaker was changed. While I would still not allow full lances into QP, I do believe that an equal number of 2 or 3 man teams on each side would be a lot less unbalancing than they were before. And yes.. there is a chance that two very good players will dominate, but guess what.. they already do, as even a single good player with a mike can turn the tide of the battle.

Finally, the last argument really: making this happen should not be a big thing really, since there already is group play, it would just be a tweaking of the matchmaker to place small groups into QP queue instead of the GP one. If it does not work out, the same matchmaker tweak can undo it and we can all pretend it never happened.

Not giving it a try because it "might" cause more problems than the ones it surely solves would be just as dumb as many of the arguments against it.

. What about the guy with two friends? Allowing Dous into the solo que is unfair to them. PGI has a track record of not undoing changes till the completely decimate entire modes. We are not asking your child to play World Cup soccer, nobody is forcing you into comp play. We don’t have a population big enough to match groups, full stop. Allowing some arbitrary size of groups into the solo que will not improve the current poor matchmaker. Maybe ask for this feature, which would require significantly changed matchmaker once the current match maker is fixed for the existing system. Yes, we understand you want to play with your friends, yes we understand the group que is not friendly to new players. The best solution you currently have is private matches that you can fill from your friends list. Your request for a new feature to be added to the game is better placed in the feature suggestion thread, where it belongs.

[csebal]

Cloves, on 17 June 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

. What about the guy with two friends? Allowing Dous into the solo que is unfair to them. PGI has a track record of not undoing changes till the completely decimate entire modes. We are not asking your child to play World Cup soccer, nobody is forcing you into comp play. We don’t have a population big enough to match groups, full stop. Allowing some arbitrary size of groups into the solo que will not improve the current poor matchmaker. Maybe ask for this feature, which would require significantly changed matchmaker once the current match maker is fixed for the existing system. Yes, we understand you want to play with your friends, yes we understand the group que is not friendly to new players. The best solution you currently have is private matches that you can fill from your friends list. Your request for a new feature to be added to the game is better placed in the feature suggestion thread, where it belongs.

- What about the guy with two friends? Or three? there will always be a limit, currently that limit is 0 friends. Bad.
- I'm sure PGI is a big fan of their wallets and would do a lot not to decimate their playerbase. Also do not forget that for quite some time they were under foreign rule. The game started improving a lot more once they got rid of IGP
- The usual arguments against allowing small groups into QP is very much like the scenario I outlined, even though not explicitly stated.
- The goal of the change would not be to improve MM, it would be to improve player experience for small groups. MM would still be improved in my opinion though.
- So your solution to the problem of me unable to play with friends inside the game is to go, take my friends and play elsewhere apart from everyone, in a private game. Nevermind the fact, that it requires at least 16 likeminded players to get even the semblance of a decent match going, when you might only have two or three, but yes.. I took and will take the advice and just stop playing once more, when I am fed up with me being unable to play the game in a social manner without going out of my way and turn a game into a competition. Did it ever occur to you, that the reason the game dwindles is because its playerbase is segregated so much? Does the game really need 5 different queues? One for solo players, one for groups, one for competitive play, one for faction warfare and then we even have the private games too? If anything, we should be thiking about how we could reduce that number by merging queues, not how the current system can be kept up just because it is 'convenient' for the top few percent.

Edited by csebal, 17 June 2018 - 10:07 AM.

[Mystere]

LordBraxton, on 17 June 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

I play against groups in every other multiplayer game, including MOBAs where a premade team is even more of an advantage than in MWO.

It shows how anti social the MWO community is that we have such segregated queues.

So, are you completely in favor merging the solo and group queues.

csebal, on 17 June 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

Did it ever occur to you, that the reason the game dwindles is because its playerbase is segregated so much? Does the game really need 5 different queues? One for solo players, one for groups, one for competitive play, one for faction warfare and then we even have the private games too? If anything, we should be thiking about how we could reduce that number by merging queues, not how the current system can be kept up just because it is 'convenient' for the top few percent.

And to you I direct the same question.

Edited by Mystere, 17 June 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[csebal]

Mystere, on 17 June 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

So, are you completely in favor merging the solo and group queues.

And to you I direct the same question.

Never said that, but yes, I would do some merges. Specifically I would get rid of group play and merge it with faction play, as they are essentially the same: "organized, competitive team play modes". I would open up QP to small groups and channel every group larger than X that towards faction play, where X is a negotiable limit on how large a group the casual game can handle without throwing it extremely off balance.

Edited by csebal, 17 June 2018 - 10:37 AM.

[Blindbeard the Pirate]

Mystere, on 17 June 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

And that is why the only way to make winning more important is to junk all other stats. Over the long term, a person who wins more that loses must be doing something right.

That isn't necessarily true. I have a positive overall win loss ratio, a passable kdr, above average match scores, and half way decent skill with the mechs I use. The win matters most, that is true, but it's honestly effectively RNG whether you get that. There are spawn points so bad that you just have to hope a light doesn't kill you if you spawn in one as an assault. If the game deviates from 3/3/3/3 and you got domination you had best hope you got a light or an assassin because a lot of assaults can't make it there in 60 seconds reliably. Even if you just get skirmish, you've basically got to hope your team doesn't do something silly like fight in the valley of frozen city or walk into the caldera. This stuff isn't call of duty and we don't all move the same speed in a 6v6 where a single passable player can always carry. If you're in a light you sometimes can't even sway the game once your meatshields are dead.

In group queues, you just honestly reserve yourself. Not everyone wants to play two 100t assaults in their duos to preserve something as arbitrary as w/l and kdr, and honestly, the scenario you're all worried about is the 1 percent of the 1 percent grouping up. Most people out to above 320 average match score are players I feel like I can fight almost no matter what their other ratios look like. Bur if I see a player I know averages 400, I know I'm pretty well screwed or at least in for an uphill battle unless I catch them in a 1v1 or 2v2. They statistically out perform me in raw killing effectiveness.

March score is a pretty good indicator of how active a person is, and how effective they are at putting damage into people. Win loss ratio is fine to a point, good players will have positive ratios, but beyond a point it only tells you how deadly their group is as a whole. People should be rewarded for doing more. People are rewarded for doing more. The vulture isn't going to suddenly become a falcon if there isn't a reason for them to be. Kill death is basically how good am I at securing kills relative to my durability, imagine if they tracked average kmdds and you saw a light at 4.7. I would be terrified. But if most of my favourite lights are between 1.8 and 2.4 kdr, anybody can do that. I just do it aggressively and fight people, where some people scratch paint until someone acts as a can opener.

Bring on the safety measures and checks to make games possible at any time of night. I'd rather see that than sync dropping. As it is just about every other game has merged queues, compromises can allow the integrity of both to be maintained.

Edited by Ulriya Sykora, 17 June 2018 - 12:18 PM.

[TheBossOfYou]

csebal, on 17 June 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

Never said that, but yes, I would do some merges. Specifically I would get rid of group play and merge it with faction play, as they are essentially the same: "organized, competitive team play modes". I would open up QP to small groups and channel every group larger than X that towards faction play, where X is a negotiable limit on how large a group the casual game can handle without throwing it extremely off balance.

The matchmaker in this game is not capable of handling groups of any size. So no, no groups of any size in QP.

[a le Roi]

Mystere, on 15 June 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

I don't know who you've been listening to, but there used to be a single QP queue. Full teams could and did drop against skittle teams.

And no one is proposing a return to that.

There's a world of a difference between allowing a 2-man group to drop in a mixed match and allowing 12-man or even 4-man groups. They are not the same thing, so stop beating the straw man.

MischiefSC, on 15 June 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

We can all play the game. We're all playing the game. Do you think that every 2-6man in group queue just loses most the time? Who do you think is beating you?

This. Isn't. About. Being. Beaten.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 15 June 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

Mischief did propose the only feasible solution - git gud.

Every other proposed solution involves breaking the game for others. Basically, people who feel 2mans don't belong in gp are tired.of getting smacked by large teams.

No. Still and forever no.

Me and my friend are tired of spending our game time waiting. And waiting. And waiting.

We came to the game to play. If playing together involves more waiting than playing, guess how many people are going to stick around for that?

Some people want to play with friends, not just solo. The operative word being "play". Not wait.

Vxheous, on 15 June 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

My winrate for this month playing in groups of 2-4, with some occassional solo matches thrown in is 87%. Opposition groups have disbanded and gone into sync dropping into solo queue to avoid fights. Allowing small 2-4 man groups to drop into the solo queue will completely destroy solo queue.

My group consisted of a combination of these players (small as 2 but usually never greater than 4): Myself, Imminent, Adette, Nova-, Chimera11. My group might be on the extreme end of the skill spectrum, but even above average 2-4 mans will wreak havoc on solo queue.

The group queue, as others have pointed out, doesn't even attempt to balance the teams by tiers or skill. That's why you wreak such havoc: You are matched against teams that are far worse than your group.

Solo queue doesn't work that way and literally no one is proposing to change that.

[a le Roi]

TWIAFU, on 16 June 2018 - 03:33 AM, said:

Ohh, so I can bring by Uber T1 duo group into solo queue, with us both on TS, and farm the living hell outta all the solo players and only have to 'worry' about another duo group.

Yea, love it! Will make clubbing all that much easier.

Ever heard of matching players (and groups) by tier/skill?

Your T1 group would always be matched by a T1 group of equal rating and size.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 16 June 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

OK LET ME ASK ALL OF YOU WHO WANT DUOS IN QP THIS QUESTION:

be honest with yourself.

when you and your friend start doing well and racking up good kdrs and wlr in qp, are you guys going to switch to gp? or are you guys going to keep staying in qp bowling skittles?

ya, i thought so.

KDR and WLR have nothing to do with the request. No, me and my friend likely would stay out of GP however well or badly we did, because GP waiting times are insane. We want to play, not wait.

If the QP matches are crazily imbalanced because we are allowed to team up, guess what? That's a problem with the match maker, not in allowing us to team up. We should always be paired against a team with an equally sized group and with players of roughly equal skill level.

If PGI can't do that, that's another problem entirely and exists with or without 2-man groups.

[Wil McCullough]

a le Roi, on 17 June 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

No. Still and forever no.

Me and my friend are tired of spending our game time waiting. And waiting. And waiting.

We came to the game to play. If playing together involves more waiting than playing, guess how many people are going to stick around for that?

Some people want to play with friends, not just solo. The operative word being "play". Not wait.



The group queue, as others have pointed out, doesn't even attempt to balance the teams by tiers or skill. That's why you wreak such havoc: You are matched against teams that are far worse than your group.

Solo queue doesn't work that way and literally no one is proposing to change that.

Solaris duos. Solaris even has a seeding system so you play with people on your skill level.

But you're not looking for a fair fight. You're not looking for duos vs duos. You're looking to bring duos into solo qp.

Your arguments fall apart under scrutiny.

[Cloves]

What time are you dropping that you have a 20 minute que time? If you are dropping 1300
GMT Then you need to look into the post requesting the ability of solos to opt into the group que. If you are playing withe the Russians, Australians and Philippinos, you can’t be arguing about making changes to the game that will add a ton of new players, you are just playing with the lost souls of the Mechwarrior universe. The tiny population and large network distances make that a different bowl of fish, and PGI is not going to make major balance passes just for this group when they effect the whole population.

Edited by Cloves, 17 June 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[Haipyng]

Besh, on 17 June 2018 - 04:57 AM, said:

Never ceases to amaze me how, in a Teambased Game like MW:O, people actually consider the concept of "KillStealing" valid . Imho, the Striker/assasinate Light who singles out the badly dmged, having retreated into the back enemy 'Mech who still has weapons to fire with, and kills it, contributes to the Team very valuably . In fact, that precisely is the role of quite a few Light 'Mechs/Builds .

I can see how battling it out with someone putting a few hundred or so points of damage into their mech and missing out on the kill at the last second can be disappointing, but it is a team based game. There is no kill stealing, although there are plenty of folks that think that way.

Edit: I see this was clarified later on. That is what I get for not following the thread to the end before commenting.

Mystere, on 17 June 2018 - 05:04 AM, said:

This solo player has absolutely no problem with the solo and group queues being merged. Bring it on!

Heh! You are always up for a challenge.

Edited by Haipyng, 17 June 2018 - 04:57 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Please do not. Reasons not to are well known and well recognized. No need to keep rehashing them.

Please do allow soloists to volunteer for group queue.

[Chortles]

a le Roi, on 17 June 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

And no one is proposing a return to that.

There's a world of a difference between allowing a 2-man group to drop in a mixed match and allowing 12-man or even 4-man groups. They are not the same thing, so stop beating the straw man.



This. Isn't. About. Being. Beaten.

You're right. There is a world of a difference between a two-man group in solo queues than four-man in group queue.

A two-man EmP against random pugs is much more devastating than a four-man EmP against other coordinated groups.

Edited by Chortles, 17 June 2018 - 05:04 PM.