864 replies to this topic

[Haipyng]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

i keep proposing as a fix because it answers all the excuses people use to try to justify putting duos in solo qp.

"long queue times wehhh" not for solaris.

"i can't play with my friend wehhh" solaris was built for just that.

"i get mashed by better players in group queue wehhh" not with solaris seeding, you don't. you get fair fights after your seeding is done.

so if they want me to stop proposing it as a fix, then they should make the effort to come up with better excuses for their attempt to wield clubs against seals.

As they said they want to play the most popular version of the game, 12 v 12, not 2 v 2, which was intended as a competitive match. I don't play Solaris, but as I understand it, 2 v 2 is pretty barren. At any rate they have a point, it's not the game they want to play and a majority of players agree with them, they don't want to play it either.

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

if tonnage restrictions don't work as a "drawback" to teamwork, what do you think the outcome will be when duos are brought to qp?

like you said, in comparison qp is very fair and balanced. once duos are introduced this balance goes kaput. which is exactly what i DON'T want and exactly what players who want to bring duos into qp DO want.

btw, tonnage difference does affect group play games as a balancing factor. and it's actually the opposite of what all these "weh weh big groups stealing my candy" folks are crying about.taking equal skill level of pilots on both teams, as long as players on each team communicate, the side with more small groups will win more than not mainly because they can bring more robot to a robot fight. with in-game mic support, big groups is more like challenge mode. it actually makes it harder to win because you have none of the advantages and all of the drawbacks. in other words, these guys are whining because they're losing even though the deck is stacked in their favor. so now they want a new deck.

here's the thing: if there was any advantage to big groups, you wouldn't see sync dropping happen.

and here's another thing:

to be able to have duos work fairly in quick play, matchmaker has to be fixed. but if matchmaker was fixed, then there's no need for duos in quick play. see how self-defeating the whole thing is?

I didn't say tonnage restrictions don't work, I said they weren't effective and they aren't either as a whole or in acting as the only balance mechanism in GP. Nobody liked them.

What does tonnage restrictions have to do with 2 mans in QP? No one is suggesting adding tonnage restrictions to 2 mans in QP, so you lost me. I wouldn't be totally opposed to the idea if it's thought it would balance things out more.

Otherwise I would think it would work the way it is working now. Dropping in like tier buckets, with the other filtering and preferably adding a two man to the other side. Unlike the 4 mans of old, we have in game comms now. It's not like when a group of 4 could coordinate instantly and wolf pack other mechs without comms. Aside from the tendency of all players to rise to tier 1 eventually the current QP MM more or less works. The effects of a two man should be minimal. It's not dropping in T5 to club seals. We have sync dropping now or the random confluence of players that know each other if you like. Sometimes more than two. It hasn't killed QP yet.

If GP MM were fixed it would be preferable. I don't disagree with that point. Unfortunately in all this time it has never been fixed. Fixing it now, might not help with a low population and after safeties blow you may not end up with a balanced match anyway. It's a difficult problem.

All the "weh weh" additions to your post make it a little hard to read, don't add to your content, are vaguely insulting and make it much more difficult to take you seriously. IJS. Take it or leave it.

[a le Roi]

MischiefSC, on 17 June 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

Then what's the problem? Just queue time? Play when more people are on. Because you keep saying you don't want to get 'clubbed'. Every post from you guys talks about how unfair it is to play against good teams/players.

If losing isn't the issue, why does that keep coming up?

The 'getting clubbed' issue raised by others is that the current group queue makes no adjustment for player skill. Therefore novice players are thrown in with Tier 1 hardcore pros. In 6-8 person groups.

That is a recipe that will drive away new players who have joined to play with friends.

Meanwhile they also can't play with friends in skill-adjusted matches that don't allow those 5-12 person groups. And the reason you give for that is that groups would be unbalancing.

Well, uh, if duos in skill-adjusted mixed matches are unbalanced, how on Earth are 5-12 person groups in non-skill-adjusted matches not unbalanced??

[Wil McCullough]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 07:46 AM, said:

You are pretending that

a) sync dropping doesn't already happen, and

the other team wouldn't also have a 2-person group.



Neither of which is or would be true.



Because people didn't come to MWO to play 2v2. I sure didn't.

It's no more complicated than that, really. Stop with the conspiracy theories.

if a big group is such an advantage as you claim, why do people sync drop with smaller groups?

there's no conspiracy theory here. you're just sick of losing and looking for a selfish way to pad stats at the expense of others. with your 0.6 wlr and 0.33 kdr, it's pretty obvious. you're not exactly hard to read. rofl.

[Wil McCullough]

Haipyng, on 18 June 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

snip

without tonnage restrictions, how do you suggest a fair matchmaker work?

the situation:

1. 2 t5 friends decide to duo up for quickplay. in light mechs.
2. a t1 duo is currently queuing in 2 assault mechs.

time's ticking. what does the matchmaker do?

if it tries to put together a fair match, wait times will be even longer because now duos are split between four playable modes - quick play, group play, solaris and faction play.

if it starts opening valves, good duos are going to wreck quickplay. 2xmadcat iis with 2xgauss/2xerll/4xerml, coordinated, will drill through cts in an instant. so will 2x any is assault that can sling dual heavy gauss. it's going to be group queue all over again.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

if a big group is such an advantage as you claim, why do people sync drop with smaller groups?

there's no conspiracy theory here. you're just sick of losing and looking for a selfish way to pad stats at the expense of others. with your 0.6 wlr and 0.33 kdr, it's pretty obvious. you're not exactly hard to read. rofl.

Life must be arduous with such paranoia.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

if a big group is such an advantage as you claim, why do people sync drop with smaller groups?

Did you think that through before writing it?

If people are sync-dropping multiple smaller groups, that means they are playing in a big group that's technically divided into two or more.

It's like saying that 2 friends sync dropping into a QP game is not the same as those same 2 friends joining the same QP game as a group.

There's only one difference: If they were in a group, the game could actually balance that group against another group in the match. If they sync drop, the game has no idea they are playing de facto as a group and thus cannot balance the match. And by your argument it should be a stomp every single time.

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

without tonnage restrictions, how do you suggest a fair matchmaker work?

the situation:

1. 2 t5 friends decide to duo up for quickplay. in light mechs.
2. a t1 duo is currently queuing in 2 assault mechs.

time's ticking. what does the matchmaker do?

if it tries to put together a fair match, wait times will be even longer because now duos are split between four playable modes - quick play, group play, solaris and faction play.

if it starts opening valves, good duos are going to wreck quickplay. 2xmadcat iis with 2xgauss/2xerll/4xerml, coordinated, will drill through cts in an instant. so will 2x any is assault that can sling dual heavy gauss. it's going to be group queue all over again.

Have the duos wait until a suitable, balanced group can be found to pair them against with. This is not rocket science.

Also tonnage should only be a multiplier for player skill in determining your match-maker rating score. A great player in a light will influence the match far more than a novice in an assault. There's no point in matching players ton for ton when skill is a far more decisive factor.

[MischiefSC]

Ulriya Sykora, on 17 June 2018 - 09:36 PM, said:

I don't really know if that's totally the issue here, correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. It WILL result in that, but probably not nearly to the degree you're worried about, and likely only during the hours of us vampires. For a player at his skill level group queue might be a total stompfest, but I win more than I lose there and I still think considerations could be made for queue time. If anything it would probably bring better players into the few solo queues that I do, and that would be pretty fun tbh. Even if I had the option to just drop solo into GQ, I wouldn't mind that, I'm usually alone in the group anyway and working on something a little different. The reduced pool might make sync dropping into GQ with a friend faster than a real duo queue :V

Except the solo queue is already full of bads who would, however, still have been able to win about 50/50 in QP when there's no groups. Adding groups, even 2mans, further dilutes the impact of solo players in solo queue and adds yet another factor outside their control. The majority of players, the solo pugs who are doing their solo pug thing, would be the people most negatively impacted - and the only reason for it would be to help out a tiny niche population, largely to just let them play with an advantage when derping with friends.

I would absolutely agree that letting players solo pug in group queue would be a good solution and a much better one.

[Haipyng]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

without tonnage restrictions, how do you suggest a fair matchmaker work?

the situation:

1. 2 t5 friends decide to duo up for quickplay. in light mechs.
2. a t1 duo is currently queuing in 2 assault mechs.

time's ticking. what does the matchmaker do?

if it tries to put together a fair match, wait times will be even longer because now duos are split between four playable modes - quick play, group play, solaris and faction play.

if it starts opening valves, good duos are going to wreck quickplay. 2xmadcat iis with 2xgauss/2xerll/4xerml, coordinated, will drill through cts in an instant. so will 2x any is assault that can sling dual heavy gauss. it's going to be group queue all over again.

Exactly what it would currently do if they were singles. T5 is supposed to never drop against T1. They would wait. There is way more population in QP to balance with.

Hopefully with dropping into a T1 bucket they would arrive with players that have a good chance of dealing with them. It's not a lot different than them dropping into QP solo and no different than them sync dropping.

[Johnathan Tanner]

What a joke. Is this the kind of **** threads they allow in general discussion? This is almost as bad as pauls 8v8 thread. To the OP. GIT GUD because groups will NEVER be allowed in solo queue.

[Wil McCullough]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

There's only one difference: If they were in a group, the game could actually balance that group against another group in the match.

no. it can't. and it's inability to do so is exactly the reason you're upset about getting crushed in group queue. even with a tonnage advantage with your duo setup, you're getting smashed by better players with a handicap.

a sync-dropped group of 8 that's split 4-4 (for example), would have less sevege tonnage restrictions. in other words, facing other small groups, it's a fair fight. both teams have little to no tonnage restrictions.

the only time they have the advantage is if they drop against a large group, which have restricted tonnage.

here's the bottom line: if your idea relies on the matchmaker balancing your groups in solo quick play, that means it can balance groups in group queue. which would make your argument to have duos in quick play absolutely redundant.

you keep saying big groups have an advantage. they don't. it's either a fair fight or they're at a disadvantage.

the reason you keep losing in group queue isn't because of big groups.

the reason you keep losing is because you're worse pilots than your opponents.

the reason you keep losing in group queue is because the matchmaker shouldn't have placed you against those pilots in the first place.

the reason your campaign to inject duos into quickplay is silly to anyone with half a brain is because it relies on the same borked matchmaker to make fair games when it's already proven that it can't, which is why pgi turned it off for group queue in the first place.

which leads us to the reason why you want duos in quickplay coupled with this borked matchmaker making the matches in the first place - so you can do to others what has been done to you.

[a le Roi]

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

What a joke. Is this the kind of **** threads they allow in general discussion? This is almost as bad as pauls 8v8 thread. To the OP. GIT GUD because groups will NEVER be allowed in solo queue.

I see you haven't even read what this is about because if you had, you'd know that "git gud" is not in the general direction of a solution.

[MischiefSC]

csebal, on 17 June 2018 - 11:39 PM, said:

Let me rephrase it for you:
"This is not a solution for you, because the actual problem you're having (and we do not seem to understand) is somewhat different and would not be solved by moving from the full game to a limited experience of 2vs2 gameplay. The actual problem is that the group queue is heavily skewed against small casual groups and is simply not fun to play as you will be stomped by larger, organized teams 9 out of 10 times, with the 10th time a large, organized team on your side carrying you to victory."

Except that's absolutely false. It's not skewed against anyone except large groups, who play with a huge tonnage disadvantage.

You're mistaking the fact that the game, like any PvP game, is inherently competitive - the better side wins, with having some sort of skewing going on. It's the same thing that happens in QP.

You're getting stomped by small, casual groups that are better too. Really any mixed teams that put a bit of effort into coordination. Same thing that happens in QP. That's the crux of this; you're upset that you're (theoretically, you haven't actually dropped in the game according to the stats for about a year and a half unless this is an alternate account) losing consistently in a small group in group queue. However as has been pointed out repeatedly dropping in a small group is way better in GQ than dropping in a big one. You keep ignoring that and making statements that make it absolutely clear you've never actually even played in a big group.

You're getting carried in QP too. If you['re not the one carrying, someone is carrying you. That, again, isn't a game design flaw - it's what happens when you're playing at a skill level that's below average. Quit trying to 'fix' the game to give you an advantage instead of just getting better at the game.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

no. it can't. and it's inability to do so is exactly the reason you're upset about getting crushed in group queue.

The game doesn't even try to balance players by their tiers in group queue.

But go ahead and ignore all facts if that let's you keep your comfortable delusion that everyone is out to cheat themselves some advantage to soothe their ego.

Edited by a le Roi, 18 June 2018 - 08:47 AM.

[a le Roi]

MischiefSC, on 18 June 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

Except the solo queue is already full of bads who would, however, still have been able to win about 50/50 in QP when there's no groups. Adding groups, even 2mans, further dilutes the impact of solo players in solo queue and adds yet another factor outside their control. The majority of players, the solo pugs who are doing their solo pug thing, would be the people most negatively impacted - and the only reason for it would be to help out a tiny niche population, largely to just let them play with an advantage when derping with friends.

You are assuming that solo players "doing their solo pug thing" do not ever coordinate with their team.

That is patently false and to imply that is grossly disrespectful of the very players you claim to be defending.

[Johnathan Tanner]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

I see you haven't even read what this is about because if you had, you'd know that "git gud" is not in the general direction of a solution.

To be honest no I only skimmed the title. Ive been around and ive seen far better troll threads than this. I going to state facts and your gonna cry but they will still be facts.

1. You are never going to get your way because pgi.
2. Whatever argument you have about group queue being unfair to small groups will be received by this community with "LOL"
3.Small groups are the majority in CW and they only wait about 2 minutes tops to be some units snack. If you want fast drops and dont care about losing play CW

/thread

[MischiefSC]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

The 'getting clubbed' issue raised by others is that the current group queue makes no adjustment for player skill. Therefore novice players are thrown in with Tier 1 hardcore pros. In 6-8 person groups.

That is a recipe that will drive away new players who have joined to play with friends.

Meanwhile they also can't play with friends in skill-adjusted matches that don't allow those 5-12 person groups. And the reason you give for that is that groups would be unbalancing.

Well, uh, if duos in skill-adjusted mixed matches are unbalanced, how on Earth are 5-12 person groups in non-skill-adjusted matches not unbalanced??

GQ has no real matchmaker due to low population. The population is low for a number of reasons, one of which is the changes put in to try and make GQ more fair to the small, casual groups in QP which in turn made it unenjoyable for everyone else. Amazingly enough there isn't a nerf you can put in the game that will let 'small casual groups' compete against even mediocre small casual groups. Because it's a 12 v 12 team game and the team with the biggest concentration of players who play as a team are likely to win, regardless of queue.

So your solution is to try and make solo queue as unbalanced as group queue is, but hopefully in a way that lets the small groups of terribads win more often because they're in a group vs, hopefully, a bunch of terribad pugs?

Also the 'new player' bit is, again, 100% false.

The game had its largest population and largest consistent influx of population during the time when the NPE was far worse than it is now. Take new players to private matches, put them through the training grounds. Help them get in with a group that actually can carry them if you can not. There's a ton of options. The idea that this change is 'for the children' is a dishonest and baseless argument.

If the only complaint is queue times then just suggest randomly taking solo players to fill group queue matches. There you go - just as reasonable. Yet that's never how it comes up because the majority of the argument is that players who are not that good at the game should get to group up vs equally bad solo pugs so they have an advantage and can win more often. That's the crux of this argument. That's the basis of it, sprinkled with some dishonest 'for the children' style references about new players. If there's a new player queue it wouldn't allow experienced players into it anyway so you couldn't play with your newbie friends against just newbies. That would also be just as unfair.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

a sync-dropped group of 8 that's split 4-4 (for example), would have less sevege tonnage restrictions. in other words, facing other small groups, it's a fair fight. both teams have little to no tonnage restrictions.

the only time they have the advantage is if they drop against a large group, which have restricted tonnage.

A sync-dropped group of 8 that's split 4-4 is still a de facto group of 8. It doesn't matter to the other team one iota if they dropped as a single group or two sections when they are all playing as a single group. Except that they get even more of an advantage by sync dropping, as you say.

Likewise if you say that 2-person groups are unbalancing in QP, then QP would already be broken because people can and do sync drop in 2-person groups. That such groups are invisible to the game and to the other players do nothing to help balance - on the contrary.

You don't have a single logical argument to make so you just fall back on your retort that everyone must be asking for this to get some unholy advantage to kill noobs. I'm sorry it's unfathomable to you that some people don't care about their stats but are playing MWO to - oh lord - have fun!

[MischiefSC]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

You are assuming that solo players "doing their solo pug thing" do not ever coordinate with their team.

That is patently false and to imply that is grossly disrespectful of the very players you claim to be defending.

Nice try. They do so in group queue too. However the people in QP are electing to play in the solo queue, which was made to allow people to do so without having to play against groups, which dilutes their individual impact. You're wanting to negatively impact their game experience so you can 'have more fun', which is another euphemism for 'win more', by playing with the advantage of teaming up vs just pug teams because unlike every other small group in group queue you're 'getting clubbed', another euphemism for 'losing to a better coordinated team of 12 regardless of its composition'.

[Johnathan Tanner]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

A sync-dropped group

Ah I see marik monday madness is still a thing.

[a le Roi]

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

To be honest no I only skimmed the title.

Yeah, it shows.

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

Whatever argument you have about group queue being unfair to small groups will be received by this community with "LOL"

Show me one message where I have complained about GQ being unfair to small groups. The problem is the wait time and the fact that the queue doesn't balance teams by player tier. But mostly the wait time (which is made worse by how it shafts novices).

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

Small groups are the majority in CW and they only wait about 2 minutes tops to be some units snack. If you want fast drops and dont care about losing play CW

How you imagine this is an argument against anything proposed in this thread is beyond me.