864 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

To be honest no I only skimmed the title. Ive been around and ive seen far better troll threads than this. I going to state facts and your gonna cry but they will still be facts.

1. You are never going to get your way because pgi.
2. Whatever argument you have about group queue being unfair to small groups will be received by this community with "LOL"
3.Small groups are the majority in CW and they only wait about 2 minutes tops to be some units snack. If you want fast drops and dont care about losing play CW

/thread

Yes, but you are forgetting...
Well, that may be true, but...
This isn’t the point I am making, there is also...

Seriously, OP, as entertaining as these threads always are, and as adamant to your ideals as you have been for 14 pages, alas, the reality is that what Tanner said above is pretty much the beginning and end to this whole conversation.

[MischiefSC]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

A sync-dropped group of 8 that's split 4-4 is still a de facto group of 8. It doesn't matter to the other team one iota if they dropped as a single group or two sections when they are all playing as a single group. Except that they get even more of an advantage by sync dropping, as you say.

Likewise if you say that 2-person groups are unbalancing in QP, then QP would already be broken because people can and do sync drop in 2-person groups. That such groups are invisible to the game and to the other players do nothing to help balance - on the contrary.

You don't have a single logical argument to make so you just fall back on your retort that everyone must be asking for this to get some unholy advantage to kill noobs. I'm sorry it's unfathomable to you that some people don't care about their stats but are playing MWO to - oh lord - have fun!

Sync dropping in QP very, very rarely happens on purpose. What sort of conspiracy theory is that? If it did happen with any consistently it absolutely would be a balance issue that would need fixed, but given how the MM works even if people were trying to do it they'd end up on opposite teams as often (or more) than the same team.

Your argument has now shifted to 'Oh, it wouldn't be THAT bad. Well, us terribads wouldn't be that big of an impact'.

Which, ironically, is probably true. In fact less so than you'd like - if this terrible idea ever went in (it won't, but if it did) then PGI would have to weight the value of teams higher because as a given rule any teamwork is a big advantage - so your terribad 2man would be having higher skill players stacked against it to compensate which would, in turn, lead to getting stomped in QP.

The only thing that's going to let you 'have more fun' (win more) is getting better at the game.

[Wil McCullough]

Haipyng, on 18 June 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

Exactly what it would currently do if they were singles. T5 is supposed to never drop against T1. They would wait. There is way more population in QP to balance with.

what would it be waiting for? another T5 duo? or a range between T2-5? or does it just fill the rest of the slots up with solo players so that only one team has the duo?

make it more interesting: what if a T5 groups with a T1 (experienced player bringing a new friend in for example)? does the game implode?

my point is this: there's no way the matchmaker can balance matches to an extent where this will work. if it could, it would be making fair matches in group queue right now as we argue.

[Johnathan Tanner]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yeah, it shows.



Show me one message where I have complained about GQ being unfair to small groups. The problem is the wait time and the fact that the queue doesn't balance teams by player tier. But mostly the wait time (which is made worse by how it shafts novices).



How you imagine this is an argument against anything proposed in this thread is beyond me.

Im not arguing anything im stating fact. And neither are you. You are literally just crying because you lose alot and instead of changing your behavior you want the game to change to suit you.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Haipyng, on 18 June 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

It may not. How will we actually know unless we try it?

You might be new here. It's been tried, long ago. Folks complained about groups and soloists being mixed together. Trying something just for the sake of trying, when there is historic evidence in ample measure to show it's not a good idea, isn't a great methodology. What's changed about the game, besides it's gotten smaller, that would lead you to believe that the community would suddenly embrace 2-mans in the queue? What trends are showing it? What thousands of player sample sized poll? Anecdotal and personal opinions aside, what is out there that leads anyone to think things have changed enough to make this worth attempting a second time?

As to the logical fallacy argument about slippery slopes....that's a comment I see folks make when they don't have a logical retort. It's absolutely reasonable to expect, given this forum's and community's history that if 2-man groups were introduced and found to be at all palatable (again, highly debatable) that some segment would aggressively argue for 3, 4 man groups as we've seen in the past.

Folks want the ability to play somewhat casually WITH friends, in a competitive setting. This is not a problem specific to MWO. It's existing in every PvP game I've played over the last 20+ years online. In the end, we're hamstrung in many ways by our small size and player demographic.

I honestly believe adding 2-man's will drive off more players eventually, than it attracts or retains. Letting soloists go into group queue (which hold much less negative impact) is a better idea imo (but that services a different itch admittedly).

[a le Roi]

MischiefSC, on 18 June 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

PGI would have to weight the value of teams higher because as a given rule any teamwork is a big advantage - so your terribad 2man would be having higher skill players stacked against it to compensate which would, in turn, lead to getting stomped in QP.

That you think that I would object to that...

MischiefSC, on 18 June 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

The only thing that's going to let you 'have more fun' (win more) is getting better at the game.

...and that you say things like that out loud says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Everyone does not think like you. Not that there's anything wrong in only enjoying winning (though it's a bit sad), but it's definitely factually wrong to think that everyone thinks that way.

[Mystere]

Vesper11, on 18 June 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

I wanted to do it too.

Can I have another draw please? The one that says "fix the useless MM" so that after that I could draw "balanced MM score for groups and removal of GQ".

All that talk of not letting people in SQ is all about randoms getting stomped by organized team which we already see in GQ (which might be dead for exactly this reason) and that might happen in SQ if small groups are allowed but neither this proposal nor what we have no fixes problem of letting people enjoy the game with friend(s). The very same cause is also part of the reason why some battles are so damn stupid when you have more than half the team running in all directions like headless chicken while the enemy picks them one by one in semi-organized manner, and the cause is a useless placeholder MM, which works like experience bar which says almost nothing about player skill while people can still easily make smurf accounts and get almost any mech they want with basic cheevos completely ignoring it altogether.
While I do want to be able to play with a friend without wasting 10 minutes waiting for a one-sided game, the best course of action is to first fix MM, then the groups in SQ problem will fix itself.

This is what you are probably looking for then.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

what would it be waiting for? another T5 duo? or a range between T2-5? or does it just fill the rest of the slots up with solo players so that only one team has the duo?

make it more interesting: what if a T5 groups with a T1 (experienced player bringing a new friend in for example)? does the game implode?

my point is this: there's no way the matchmaker can balance matches to an extent where this will work. if it could, it would be making fair matches in group queue right now as we argue.

This has been addressed multiple times in this very thread. And by literally almost every other team-based shooter in existence since World of Tanks.

[Wil McCullough]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

A sync-dropped group of 8 that's split 4-4 is still a de facto group of 8. It doesn't matter to the other team one iota if they dropped as a single group or two sections when they are all playing as a single group. Except that they get even more of an advantage by sync dropping, as you say.

Likewise if you say that 2-person groups are unbalancing in QP, then QP would already be broken because people can and do sync drop in 2-person groups. That such groups are invisible to the game and to the other players do nothing to help balance - on the contrary.

You don't have a single logical argument to make so you just fall back on your retort that everyone must be asking for this to get some unholy advantage to kill noobs. I'm sorry it's unfathomable to you that some people don't care about their stats but are playing MWO to - oh lord - have fun!

oh my god.

here. let me put it in plain and simple english for you.

big groups in group queue get a DISADVANTAGE with tonnage restriction. small groups DO NOT get that disadvantage.

if a big group faces a big group, BOTH are disadvantaged and it's a fair fight.

if a big group face a bunch of small groups, they are DISADVANTAGED and the smaller groups should win (assuming same skill level)

if a sync dropped big group face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

if a bunch of small groups face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

sync droppers are smelly but they only have an advantage over big groups. neither sync droppers nor big groups are the bogeymen mashing you in group queue. stats-wise you apparently lose to EVERYONE.

can you understand this simple logic?

if you are constantly in teams made of small groups in group queue, and are consistently losing to big groups, you're either losing fair fights or fights where you have the advantage.

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

This has been addressed multiple times in this very thread. And by literally almost every other team-based shooter in existence since World of Tanks.

what exactly has been addressed?!

you keep skirting the point that your silly idea requires a functional matchmaker to work when this game's matchmaker is fubar, which is why you're complaining about getting smashed in the first place!

Edited by Wil McCullough, 18 June 2018 - 09:10 AM.

[a le Roi]

Johnathan Tanner, on 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

You are literally just crying because you lose alot and instead of changing your behavior you want the game to change to suit you.

No.

The way you see other people makes me sad for you.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

oh my god.

here. let me put it in plain and simple english for you.

big groups in group queue get a DISADVANTAGE with tonnage restriction. small groups DO NOT get that disadvantage.

if a big group faces a big group, BOTH are disadvantaged and it's a fair fight.

if a big group face a bunch of small groups, they are DISADVANTAGED and the smaller groups should win (assuming same skill level)

if a sync dropped big group face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

if a bunch of small groups face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

sync droppers are smelly but they only have an advantage over big groups. neither sync droppers nor big groups are the bogeymen mashing you in group queue. stats-wise you apparently lose to EVERYONE.

can you understand this simple logic?

if you are constantly in teams made of small groups in group queue, and are consistently losing to big groups, you're either losing fair fights or fights where you have the advantage.

You're conflating skill with team work which is not the same thing in your points up here. Not that I'm disagreeing with much of what you said, but in matches of equally skilled opponents with the large group having lighter tonnage vs the smaller groups having greater tonnage potentially, but with the larger group potentially better synchronized (teamwork) vs the smaller groups willingness to sync via comms, the matches are much more of a toss-up than you describe.

Teamwork is extremely powerful, as is communication, in this game (and all PvP games imo).

[TheBossOfYou]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

This has been addressed multiple times in this very thread. And by literally almost every other team-based shooter in existence since World of Tanks.

And it has always been a mistake.

[Haipyng]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

what would it be waiting for? another T5 duo? or a range between T2-5? or does it just fill the rest of the slots up with solo players so that only one team has the duo?

The same thing it waits for now, just a duo. It could fill in with solos I suppose, but I'd side with small steps first and just test the idea.

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

make it more interesting: what if a T5 groups with a T1 (experienced player bringing a new friend in for example)? does the game implode?

Answered several times. I thought you had been following along. It has to use the highest tier of the group to slot with to keep down on abuse. T1/T5, T3/T5, T2/T4, always go by the highest member of the group.

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

my point is this: there's no way the matchmaker can balance matches to an extent where this will work. if it could, it would be making fair matches in group queue right now as we argue.

I think I have reasonably answered every question you have asked. Adding Duos to QP seems to be a simpler answer than getting GP MM fixed and seems totally doable without massive changes to QP. I too would rather have had a working GP MM from the start. I think we can take it as a sign that it hasn't been done yet that it's either not possible for PGI to do, or they are unwilling to do it.

There should have always been an intermediate place between QP and GP. The lack of population in GP shows that.

I hope we aren't arguing, but rather discussing the issues.

[a le Roi]

Wil McCullough, on 18 June 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

oh my god.

here. let me put it in plain and simple english for you.

big groups in group queue get a DISADVANTAGE with tonnage restriction. small groups DO NOT get that disadvantage.

if a big group faces a big group, BOTH are disadvantaged and it's a fair fight.

if a big group face a bunch of small groups, they are DISADVANTAGED and the smaller groups should win (assuming same skill level)

if a sync dropped big group face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

if a bunch of small groups face a bunch of small groups, BOTH do not have disadvantages and it's a fair fight.

sync droppers are smelly but they only have an advantage over big groups. neither sync droppers nor big groups are the bogeymen mashing you in group queue. stats-wise you apparently lose to EVERYONE.

can you understand this simple logic?

if you are constantly in teams made of small groups in group queue, and are consistently losing to big groups, you're either losing fair fights or fights where you have the advantage.

Get your head out of whatever watering hole you've stuck it into.

I have never once complained about losing in group queue - or any queue for that matter. That you get so agitated by your own imagination and prejudices is not healthy. Seek help.

My stats have nothing to with anything, but since you keep bringing them up, I'd just like to point out that the stats you quoted aren't mine. Or at least they are not even remotely current. Not that there's anything to boast about in my current stats, either, or that they'd matter. It's just curious that you bring up made-up statistics in an attempt to discredit me while simultaneously having a meltdown over what you think is my conspiratorial motive for starting this thread.

Not healthy, man.

[Wil McCullough]

Lukoi Banacek, on 18 June 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

You're conflating skill with team work which is not the same thing in your points up here. Not that I'm disagreeing with much of what you said, but in matches of equally skilled opponents with the large group having lighter tonnage vs the smaller groups having greater tonnage potentially, but with the larger group potentially better synchronized (teamwork) vs the smaller groups willingness to sync via comms, the matches are much more of a toss-up than you describe.

Teamwork is extremely powerful, as is communication, in this game (and all PvP games imo).

yes teamwork is the big result changer. i'm kinda lumping both skill and teamwork into one when i shouldn't be.

the game as in-built mic support though, which means that pug teams are capable (though rarely in practice) of communicating well and achieving the same level of teamwork as pre-mades.

[TheBossOfYou]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

Get your head out of whatever watering hole you've stuck it into.

I have never once complained about losing in group queue - or any queue for that matter. That you get so agitated by your own imagination and prejudices is not healthy. Seek help.

My stats have nothing to with anything, but since you keep bringing them up, I'd just like to point out that the stats you quoted aren't mine. Or at least they are not even remotely current. Not that there's anything to boast about in my current stats, either, or that they'd matter. It's just curious that you bring up made-up statistics in an attempt to discredit me while simultaneously having a meltdown over what you think is my conspiratorial motive for starting this thread.

Not healthy, man.

Can we get a mod in to close this thread?

[Wil McCullough]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

Get your head out of whatever watering hole you've stuck it into.

I have never once complained about losing in group queue - or any queue for that matter. That you get so agitated by your own imagination and prejudices is not healthy. Seek help.

My stats have nothing to with anything, but since you keep bringing them up, I'd just like to point out that the stats you quoted aren't mine. Or at least they are not even remotely current. Not that there's anything to boast about in my current stats, either, or that they'd matter. It's just curious that you bring up made-up statistics in an attempt to discredit me while simultaneously having a meltdown over what you think is my conspiratorial motive for starting this thread.

Not healthy, man.

i see we're back to the original premise of:

i want to play mwo with my one other friend but group queue takes too long to queue up for.

so once again, i ask: if long queue times are the issue, why are you not asking for shorter queue times and instead asking for duos in solo queue?

[Johnathan Tanner]

Grimmwold, on 18 June 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Can we get a mod in to close this thread?

In a decent forum yes. But this is the grey abyss where this crap is encouraged.

[Mystere]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

Likewise if you say that 2-person groups are unbalancing in QP, then QP would already be broken because people can and do sync drop in 2-person groups. That such groups are invisible to the game and to the other players do nothing to help balance - on the contrary.

Two people successfully sync dropping into the same team is a relatively rare occurrence. Allowing 2-person groups makes that a 100% certainty.

[Lukoi Banacek]

a le Roi, on 18 June 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

My stats have nothing to with anything, but since you keep bringing them up, I'd just like to point out that the stats you quoted aren't mine. Or at least they are not even remotely current. Not that there's anything to boast about in my current stats, either, or that they'd matter. It's just curious that you bring up made-up statistics in an attempt to discredit me while simultaneously having a meltdown over what you think is my conspiratorial motive for starting this thread.

Not saying stats in anyway should invalidate a person's opinion (and I agree, adding small groups to solo queue is a bad idea) but the quoted stats for you are both recent and accurate straight from the Jarl's list.
Season 23 34366 16% 40 0.60 25% 0.33 149 142.9

That's last months information on you, with 40 matches played, the most recent information on Jarl's....presuming you took a long break or have a different account you might be playing. You have clearly got a .60 WLR and .33 KDR there. Nothing made up about it. Just own it and move on.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 18 June 2018 - 09:27 AM.