864 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

Besh, on 18 June 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

You CAN bring a friend into the same Match....in GroupQ . Plus, that coaching mode also does already exist, in the form of spectating a Player after you have died .

Really, I do not understand why people do not want to teach their friends basics in Private Lobbies, or play Solaris with them .

Because Solaris and 1v1s in private are nothing like an actual match of MWO. You can learn to shoot and move in a 1v1 but if youre out of position in a 12v12 youre dead regardless of your technical abilities.

Coaching an inferior pilot through spectating requires you to DIE before said inferior pilot.

annnnd

The whole point of this thread is that groupQ is too hardcore to train a nub in

[Lukoi Banacek]

LordBraxton, on 18 June 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

The whole point of this thread is that groupQ is too hardcore to train a nub in

Plenty of people manage to do it though, so I'm not sure that's a true statement.

And IF GQ is too hard, then doesn't that go back to the PSR/MM issue that is the underlying challenge for most of this?

[Grus]

Lukoi Banacek, on 18 June 2018 - 03:49 PM, said:

Plenty of people manage to do it though, so I'm not sure that's a true statement.

And IF GQ is too hard, then doesn't that go back to the PSR/MM issue that is the underlying challenge for most of this?

1st part: there was a event a while back where you just had to die to earn it.. I was very upset that "some people are going to BA able to finnish this quicker than others.." and that made me upset.

2nd part. Or the opposite/lack there of...

[MischiefSC]

csebal, on 18 June 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

Dude, after having my integrity and motives - thus my character - assaulted in over a dozen posts, you really do not want to know what I think of certain people, including the moderators I wrote this morning about this thread. I think I was pretty mild in my wording up there, if I get the cane for it, so be it.. at least *something* happens. I stand by what I wrote. If the cap fits, wear it.. if it doesn't, then its not about you.

Your justification for the change is that you want to win more. That you're put against teams that are better than yours consistently (regardless of relative team size) you view as a problem that needs fixed by letting you play in a group vs solo players.

That's it. That's your justification. You try to paint it different colors and say that pointing that out is insulting you but that's what you're asking for. Average players play in small groups (as they've said repeatedly in this thread and you see them regularly in group queue) and do fine. They get matches and they win matches.

Group queue has the same matchmaker as solo queue. The difference is that the population in GQ is lower. At one point it was almost the same as solo queue - however we had threads exactly like this so steep tonnage limits were introduced and tightened, repeatedly. The result was that groups played less and less while the below average players continued to lose because the issue wasn't group size but relative player skill, so the 'problem' never changed and the promised 'casual groups' never showed up.

Your solution is to try and force the players in solo queue to play vs groups so that groups of low skill players can play together and win more often than they would against other groups.

Which still wouldn't happen. You'd play against other groups mixed with pugs and it would be the same people who are beating you in group queue. All you'd really be doing is subjecting the players in solo queue to playing in the situation you're trying to avoid...

except they can group up too, right? Except by that same logic why can't you group with more people to do better in group queue?

Nobody is trying to insult you or impugn your honor. We're pointing out the realities of what you're suggesting under the assumption that you haven't actually thought it through, which is not a difficult assumption to come to given the crazy suggestions you've made about big groups and how they play and the skill level of the average groups in GQ.

[S O L A I S]

19 pages...wow.

They need to start pinning a spot for these threads that are repeatedly brought up again and again so people know why the answer is no and can be left at that.

[Jatix]

Pls let small groups in solo queue. Even just 2 mans and a limited amount per game. I started this game with my friend back in beta but we almost never play together just because group queue is so little fun.

Maybe they should change their mind than and have the answer not be no. Theres a lot more small groups than large and they might actually like to play the game and have fun. A 2 man per team wont break casuals. Being a 2 man v a 12 man is legit not worth even launching the game 90% of the time.

[LordBraxton]

Lukoi Banacek, on 18 June 2018 - 03:49 PM, said:

Plenty of people manage to do it though, so I'm not sure that's a true statement.

And IF GQ is too hard, then doesn't that go back to the PSR/MM issue that is the underlying challenge for most of this?

You say "plenty" of people manage to do that just fine, but we don't have the numbers to back up either argument, just personal experience. My personal experience is that only 1 of about a dozen people whom I introduced to MWO played for long, and it was 100% because they got frustrated getting stomped when they dropped with me because I dragged them into tough matches.

[TheBossOfYou]

Jatix, on 18 June 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

Pls let small groups in solo queue. Even just 2 mans and a limited amount per game. I started this game with my friend back in beta but we almost never play together just because group queue is so little fun.

Maybe they should change their mind than and have the answer not be no. Theres a lot more small groups than large and they might actually like to play the game and have fun. A 2 man per team wont break casuals. Being a 2 man v a 12 man is legit not worth even launching the game 90% of the time.

2 man groups in QP will break QP. No.

[kuma8877]

LordBraxton, on 18 June 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

You say "plenty" of people manage to do that just fine, but we don't have the numbers to back up either argument, just personal experience. My personal experience is that only 1 of about a dozen people whom I introduced to MWO played for long, and it was 100% because they got frustrated getting stomped when they dropped with me because I dragged them into tough matches.

The evidence to back up the claim comes in the form of streamers and watching them play over a long period of time. You will quite readily find different groups in different streams with different skill levels and in differing amounts comprising those groups. They are not all elite players or teams, and you will see them having plenty of success and failure in GQ. Watch it for yourself. It's more than a subjective assessment.

[Wil McCullough]

LordBraxton, on 18 June 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

You say "plenty" of people manage to do that just fine, but we don't have the numbers to back up either argument, just personal experience. My personal experience is that only 1 of about a dozen people whom I introduced to MWO played for long, and it was 100% because they got frustrated getting stomped when they dropped with me because I dragged them into tough matches.

The OP talked about long queue times being the issue. So shorter queue times would be the solution. Merging servers, ticking an additional box, topping groups up with willing solo players for example.

You bring up bad NPE where they get tossed to the wolved without learning anything, get upset and leave. So a better NPE would be the solution.

Opening solo qp to duos is still as disingenius as it sounds.

Bad NPE can be addressed directly with a better tutorial that teaches basics like torso twisting, weapon convergence, heat management etc. Our current tutorial just has you run around yellow smoke blobs for cbills.

Claiming that opening solo quickplay to duos is the solution is pants on head silly. It comes across as badly manufactured reasons to justify a certain desired outcome.

[Mystere]

Astrocanis, on 18 June 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

Good grief. Lawyer me a little more, why don't you. Stomps are more frequent than they "should" be, which I'm sure you're close to saying is my fault. When one team loses two mechs at the outset, more often than not the other team wins.

Purely subjective. I don't like guacamole. Purely subjective. Am I wrong?

I am going to argue for allowing 2 man groups to the public queue for one and only one reason: after two consecutive attempts at balancing groups, it has gotten worse, not better. I have no confidence in PGI (or, realistically, ANYONE)'s ability to balance with all the variables extant in this game.

And selfishly, I would like to bring friends into the game without them quitting because they stand little to no chance of learning it. Getting stomped into the mud multiple times in a row is not an especially good way to teach people to play. With a two man group, there's at least a CHANCE that someone will learn something.

Argue against it however you will. But asking for a better MM or PSR/Tier rating is, IMO, pissing into the wind.

Well, since you put it that way, I can argue that adding duos into the solo queue is like pissing petrol into a fire.

[csebal]

MischiefSC, on 18 June 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

Nobody is trying to insult you or impugn your honor. We're pointing out the realities of what you're suggesting under the assumption that you haven't actually thought it through, which is not a difficult assumption to come to given the crazy suggestions you've made about big groups and how they play and the skill level of the average groups in GQ.

I said my piece. The thread is going around in circles. As far as I am concerned, you can take your opinion of me and shove it up where the sun doesn't shine.

Delude yourself all you want. It is only mildly amusing to read someone argue, that accusing someone of dishonesty is not an insult if its true, but hey.. you are not insulting anyone's integrity, after all, you see through me, you read me like an open book and you know better than I do what my motives are.

To that I say: whatever. You won. Take your prize of a dead game and enjoy it alone. I go play something else with my friends. Ciao.

Edited by csebal, 18 June 2018 - 10:04 PM.

[Besh]

LordBraxton, on 18 June 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Because Solaris and 1v1s in private are nothing like an actual match of MWO. You can learn to shoot and move in a 1v1 but if youre out of position in a 12v12 youre dead regardless of your technical abilities.

Coaching an inferior pilot through spectating requires you to DIE before said inferior pilot.

annnnd

The whole point of this thread is that groupQ is too hardcore to train a nub in

But, as I mentioned in 2 posts on the previous Page, getting killed quickly and dirty when out of position will very likely happen JUST THE SAME to a total noob if he would be be allowed with a friend in SoloQ .

Or are you trying to tell me one can advise a friend about where to move and where not to ONLY when one plays in a 2Men with him in SoloQ ? I mean, serious ? You can not tell him "simply walk behind me, and if you see en enemy 'Mech in our Path, shoot it, otherwise, shoot what I shoot at" in GroupQ ?

[Khobai]

I could see allowing groups of 2 in solo queue (max one per team)

because groups of 2 just feel bad in group queue...

groups of 3+ dont belong in solo queue though

they would influence the outcome of matches too much

Edited by Khobai, 18 June 2018 - 10:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

csebal, on 18 June 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

I said my piece. The thread is going around in circles. As far as I am concerned, you can take your opinion of me and shove it up where the sun doesn't shine.

Delude yourself all you want. It is only mildly amusing to read someone argue, that accusing someone of dishonesty is not an insult if its true, but hey.. you are not insulting anyone's integrity, after all, you see through me, you read me like an open book and you know better than I do what my motives are.

To that I say: whatever. You won. Take your prize of a dead game and enjoy it alone. I go play something else with my friends. Ciao.

Your motives are irrelevant. You're asking to play in a group in solo queue because you lose too much to be fun in group queue. There's no assumption there, that's what you said.

Now you're saying, very specifically, that since we're not willing to screw the pugs in solo queue (even just a bit) so you can have 'more fun' which is to say winning more often you're taking your ball and going home and MWO is going to fail -

specifically because of this.

No, no it won't. It'll fail because of the broken promises in Faction Warfare and years of bad balance decisions. This? This is what's keeping it alive as long as it has been.

[Vellron2005]

All I know is that small groups of 2 or 3 facing off against pro teams of 8+ in group que is absurd..

It's not fun being stomped again and again, and not being able to get away from them, getting to play against them match after match..

And when I say "fun" I don't mean just more winning.. I am quite ok with loosing 10:12.. just not ok loosing 2-12, 6 times in a row because a certain unit has a "linebacker rush training" night..

I hope this can be prevented somehow, and I really see nothing wrong or OP with a 2-man in solo que..

I also see nothing wrong with qroup Q being limited to groups of 4, but no sinc dropping.. having a group of 4 XXXY and a group of XYXX in the same TS is broken.. (where by XXXY and XYXX is a synonim for two fractions of the same unit)

[sharknoise]

Has anyone suggested some sort of a newbie pass? I mean, allow groups of two into solo queue as long as one of the group members is Tier 5 or Tier 4. This way an experiencenced player will have an option to introduce a friend to the game, but such group won't really stomp anyone . If someone makes an alt account to abuse the system, then the duo quickly rises to Tier 3 and loses the option to enter solo queue together. The exact condition could be tweaked, but the general idea is to allow harmless groups to play with pugs while keeping potentially dominant groups in the group queue.

[Wil McCullough]

sharknoise, on 19 June 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

Has anyone suggested some sort of a newbie pass? I mean, allow groups of two into solo queue as long as one of the group members is Tier 5 or Tier 4. This way an experiencenced player will have an option to introduce a friend to the game, but such group won't really stomp anyone . If someone makes an alt account to abuse the system, then the duo quickly rises to Tier 3 and loses the option to enter solo queue together. The exact condition could be tweaked, but the general idea is to allow harmless groups to play with pugs while keeping potentially dominant groups in the group queue.

Noble attempt but it won't be a satisfactory solution because matchmaker automatically drifts people up, even faster if they have cadet bonuses. Eventually, OP will still be forced to enter group queue if he wants to play with his friend, the.game mode he doesnt to play in.

[Besh]

sharknoise, on 19 June 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

Has anyone suggested some sort of a newbie pass? I mean, allow groups of two into solo queue as long as one of the group members is Tier 5 or Tier 4. This way an experiencenced player will have an option to introduce a friend to the game, but such group won't really stomp anyone . If someone makes an alt account to abuse the system, then the duo quickly rises to Tier 3 and loses the option to enter solo queue together. The exact condition could be tweaked, but the general idea is to allow harmless groups to play with pugs while keeping potentially dominant groups in the group queue.

The thing is: to introduce absolutley new and totally MWish unexperienced Players to the Game, your best way is to use private Lobbies to teach and practice Basics . It simply makes no sense to believe a Person who really has NO clue about 'Mechmovmement, Heat, Maps, positioning etc. will NOT be killed very quickly in a QPMatch simply because their "experienced" friend is on their Side .

Also, if the "experienced" friend happens to be T1, and is allowed to Group up with a T5, T4 player and play SoloQP in Matches based on the higher Tier, you get exactly what NOONE really wants: a T1 Player in a Game full of T5-T3, T2s . Can you really not see how the ability of dropping into T5-T3 Matches for a T1 Player would instantly start to be brutally abused ?

Edited by Besh, 19 June 2018 - 01:13 AM.

[Vxheous]

Vellron2005, on 18 June 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

All I know is that small groups of 2 or 3 facing off against pro teams of 8+ in group que is absurd..

It's not fun being stomped again and again, and not being able to get away from them, getting to play against them match after match..

And when I say "fun" I don't mean just more winning.. I am quite ok with loosing 10:12.. just not ok loosing 2-12, 6 times in a row because a certain unit has a "linebacker rush training" night..

I hope this can be prevented somehow, and I really see nothing wrong or OP with a 2-man in solo que..

I also see nothing wrong with qroup Q being limited to groups of 4, but no sinc dropping.. having a group of 4 XXXY and a group of XYXX in the same TS is broken.. (where by XXXY and XYXX is a synonim for two fractions of the same unit)

"pro" teams of 8+ must be a subjective thing, because I can count on one hand how many remaining large groups that play in group queue that could actually be ascribed to. Most large groups in group queue are average at best at this game, and get easily rolled by 4mans + other small groups simply due to tonnage differences. You understand that when multiple small groups drop against a large group, there is often a 200-350 ton difference in weight on the drop, meaning if the team with the multiple small groups aren't stupid and get picked off, they can easily attrition the other team?

Should you actually run into a large group in group queue that is actually really good, take your loss, and queue again. Chances are you won't see them again for the rest of the night unless you're playing during a low population time.

Edited by Vxheous, 19 June 2018 - 01:24 AM.