864 replies to this topic

[TheBossOfYou]

Aloha, on 19 June 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Actually, that's just the cynical interpretation of what you think is being requested. The OP just wants to see if it's possible to add small groups to the QP queue. I think with some limitations, it's not such a big deal. For example:

1. Group size limited to 2 players.
2. One group per team.

We can further limit trolling and farming by:

3. Both players must be in Tier 4 or 5 (this means the "experienced" player has to use an alt account).
4. Or the higher tier player must use a trial mech.

A while ago there was a similar debate on whether or not we should have a Skirmish mode. People were similarly up in arms about it. Some folks say there will be much trolling where an ECM mech will shut down somewhere to drag out the match. In the end, we got Skirmish. The world didn't end. Abuse is minimal and easily bypassed by teammates reporting the shutdown mech positions and being able to report such behaviors.

The point is, don't be so quick to judge and dismiss a sincere request that may have a positive impact on the game. What positive impact? Maybe better new player experience because they can have someone playing beside them to point out mistakes and be the tour guide on the maps. Maybe better player retention because they have a buddy to play with without having to deal with Group Queue dynamics.

That is EXACTLY what is being asked for. "I cannot hack group queue. Therefore I want to take my group into QP"

As for alt accounts or other things, no. Everything in this thread is a NO. You need to ask for better matchmaking and more than two buckets.

Edited by Grimmwold, 19 June 2018 - 05:17 PM.

[Tatula]

Wil McCullough, on 19 June 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

Neither will adding duos to solo qp. More fun (maybe) for up to 4 players in the game, not so much fun for the remaining 20.

If one of the duo is a new player than it most certainly is adding to the population. The fun factor for the remaining 20 players is your speculation. I for one wouldn't mind. And just to be clear, my friends and I are perfectly fine with playing in the GQ when we play together, even when it's just two of us.

Wil McCullough, on 19 June 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

It also splits buckets even further. Which will help even less with the diminishing population.

It's also not like you can restrict the "feature" to only T4-5s. Those make up a very small number of constantly active players. Cadet bonus will slingshot new players out of T4-5 extremely quickly as well. Restricting this feature to these players will mean it's only available to very few players for a very limited time.

It won't split the buckets because we're not adding a new bucket. We are taking two players who right now HAVE to play in the GQ and allowing them to play in the QP queue. It's just a reshuffling of the buckets.

And it SHOULD be for a limited time. Once they move up to T3 they should be ready to be fed to the GP meat grinder.

Wil McCullough, on 19 June 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

The question that people who don't want this are asking is "why?". And the answer from the other camp is weak. The strongest argument they have is "why not?". It's the only argument that works tbh. Because if queue times are too long for duos, shorten queue times are the answer. If bad NPE is causing new players to drop the game quickly, a better, more educational NPE is the solution. There's a loooooooot of mental hoops one must jumo through to arrive at the conclusion that "adding duos to solo queue" is a solution.

I think we can all agree that the GQ is not a pleasant place for new players. Forcing someone who wants to introduce a friend to this game to start in the GQ is definitely not helping the NPE.

I'm all for a better and more educational NPE. When can we have it? PGI sure as heck not working on it.

[MischiefSC]

Start new players in private matches.

[Wil McCullough]

Aloha, on 19 June 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

If one of the duo is a new player than it most certainly is adding to the population. The fun factor for the remaining 20 players is your speculation. I for one wouldn't mind. And just to be clear, my friends and I are perfectly fine with playing in the GQ when we play together, even when it's just two of us.



It won't split the buckets because we're not adding a new bucket. We are taking two players who right now HAVE to play in the GQ and allowing them to play in the QP queue. It's just a reshuffling of the buckets.

And it SHOULD be for a limited time. Once they move up to T3 they should be ready to be fed to the GP meat grinder.



I think we can all agree that the GQ is not a pleasant place for new players. Forcing someone who wants to introduce a friend to this game to start in the GQ is definitely not helping the NPE.

I'm all for a better and more educational NPE. When can we have it? PGI sure as heck not working on it.

Quickplay is full of new players as well playing solo. By giving your friend the advantage of being in a group in solo, you may make it easier for him/her/zim/zer at the expense of other new players finding their way by themselves. It may end up in a situation where you chase more new players away than you can bring in. Is this speculative? Yes. But it's also speculative that introducing small groups to solo queue won't have an effect on balance.

It also DOES split the bucket. Duos currently have four modes to choose from: group queue, solaris duos, scouting and faction play battles. Even with faction play and scouting being basically dead modes, this is what makes wait times longer. If you add duos to quickplay, you split the bucket again. But now with the added complication of a matchmaker. Once the novelty wears off, you'll gonna be waiting an hour to drop. The matchmaker isn't going to give you a match unless there's another duo of the same tier level queueing at the same time with the same server boxes checked. Good luck with that.

[Tatula]

Wil McCullough, on 19 June 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

Quickplay is full of new players as well playing solo. By giving your friend the advantage of being in a group in solo, you may make it easier for him/her/zim/zer at the expense of other new players finding their way by themselves. It may end up in a situation where you chase more new players away than you can bring in. Is this speculative? Yes. But it's also speculative that introducing small groups to solo queue won't have an effect on balance.

It also DOES split the bucket. Duos currently have four modes to choose from: group queue, solaris duos, scouting and faction play battles. Even with faction play and scouting being basically dead modes, this is what makes wait times longer. If you add duos to quickplay, you split the bucket again. But now with the added complication of a matchmaker. Once the novelty wears off, you'll gonna be waiting an hour to drop. The matchmaker isn't going to give you a match unless there's another duo of the same tier level queueing at the same time with the same server boxes checked. Good luck with that.

And if a new player knows that it's possible to ask someone for help and be able to get it in QP (instead of doing an obstacle course in the tutorial), I bet they would jump at the chance to learn from a more experienced player. Yes. There might be a slight effect on balance, but so does having a disconnect and/or AFK, which already happens on a regular basis.

We can balance the buckets by allowing duos into QP and allowing solos to GP (by choice of course). I bet that will ease the GP MM if it can just fill single slots where it's needed.

[Wil McCullough]

Aloha, on 19 June 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

And if a new player knows that it's possible to ask someone for help and be able to get it in QP (instead of doing an obstacle course in the tutorial), I bet they would jump at the chance to learn from a more experienced player. Yes. There might be a slight effect on balance, but so does having a disconnect and/or AFK, which already happens on a regular basis.

We can balance the buckets by allowing duos into QP and allowing solos to GP (by choice of course). I bet that will ease the GP MM if it can just fill single slots where it's needed.

Very few people want to be "taught". Most want to find out for themselves. After all, this is a new game they're trying out and they (mostly) start in solo quickplay. You sic teams on them, they'll be gone before they make a decision to invest, whether that's financially or emotionally.

[Tatula]

Wil McCullough, on 19 June 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

Very few people want to be "taught". Most want to find out for themselves. After all, this is a new game they're trying out and they (mostly) start in solo quickplay. You sic teams on them, they'll be gone before they make a decision to invest, whether that's financially or emotionally.

This game has been around for more than 5 years, with little or no marketing to attract new players. Where do you think the new players come from? They come from word of mouth. From a friend who invite them to come play a few games with them. Where do they end up with the current system? In the GP as fodder for actual teams. YOU are the one sic'ing teams on them. THAT's the complaint from the OP.

[0bama care]

solo is just that.....SOLO. is that too difficult to grasp? so the OP wants to eliminate the solo, go play in the 4-5 other ques that are for group play and learn to comprehend that solo = 1

[justcallme A S H]

Vxheous, on 19 June 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

"pro" teams of 8+ must be a subjective thing, because I can count on one hand how many remaining large groups that play in group queue that could actually be ascribed to. Most large groups in group queue are average at best at this game, and get easily rolled by 4mans + other small groups simply due to tonnage differences. You understand that when multiple small groups drop against a large group, there is often a 200-350 ton difference in weight on the drop, meaning if the team with the multiple small groups aren't stupid and get picked off, they can easily attrition the other team?

Should you actually run into a large group in group queue that is actually really good, take your loss, and queue again. Chances are you won't see them again for the rest of the night unless you're playing during a low population time.

Couldn't agree more.

I have run a few 8-12mans in GroupQ in recent weeks. I think I can count on one hand how many times we have lost out of maybe 50-60 games? We come up against notable groups but there really isn't an easy answer for a 8-12man of higher level players working cohesively vs a mixed bag of dirty casuals on the other side even being down 400-600T.

That said I also regularly see 6-10mans on the opposite site getting absolutely rolled sideways game by 2-4mans of competent players on the other side due to tonnage advantage of good players against bad ones.

It all comes back to skill... Which is the crux of the issue here. One 2-man is not equal to another. There is no way to gate against say someone like myself & a mate of similar skill vs two players "learning" the game... 2 players of my level, in a 2-man, in YoloQ... That is some nasty stuff.

It's no different to when I drop and someone of equal/higher skill is on my side with a bunch of no-bodies on the other. I know if we simply work together, the game is just about won right there.

Hence this suggestion has never, and will never, get off the ground or be supported.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 June 2018 - 11:50 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Aloha, on 19 June 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

This game has been around for more than 5 years, with little or no marketing to attract new players. Where do you think the new players come from? They come from word of mouth. From a friend who invite them to come play a few games with them. Where do they end up with the current system? In the GP as fodder for actual teams. YOU are the one sic'ing teams on them. THAT's the complaint from the OP.

Actually the op complains about wait times. Heh.

But you're right in that they get beaten up and leave.

However.

They don't get beaten up in solo quickplay because there's a safety net in place that keeps them from being beaten up by higher tier players. And for some reason, this matchmaker can perform this duty in solo qp, but not in group queue (don't ask me why. Pgi is pgi).

Solo quickplay is where they can go to have fun and not be stomped. You introduce duos to that equation coupled with a temperamental matchmaker and they have no "safe space" left where they feel they can give as good as they take. In group, even two T3s working together, with complementary mech builds can carve a path through a team. You put two T3s in srm bombers with a pre-arranged game plan against 12 randoms, you're gonna get havoc. Even with matchmaker active, you put me and say, for example, mischiefsc in srmbackers on the same team coordinating our ****, we're gonna win a lot more than we lose. And no offence to mischief but neither of us are truly great pilots (mischief is way better than me tho).

It's not even difficult. All the pair has to do is use a wide loop to sneak up behind the enemy together and shoot the same target until its dead then move to the next. In season 11, this was the only tactic i used in a small group (2-3) to get 8.5kda and a 5.0wlr. Walk walk, boom boom. Call for a push on mic. Boom boom more. Done. Win. Next game.

Solo quickplay is the mode that seems to retain any form of new player no matter how bad the retention rate is. You take part of the chaos that makes it fair away and you might just cripple the game.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 20 June 2018 - 04:25 AM.

[Tatula]

Wil McCullough, on 20 June 2018 - 12:52 AM, said:

Actually the op complains about wait times. Heh.

But you're right in that they get beaten up and leave.

However.

They don't get beaten up in solo quickplay because there's a safety net in place that keeps them from being beaten up by higher tier players. And for some reason, this matchmaker can perform this duty in solo qp, but not in group queue (don't ask me why. Pgi is pgi).

Solo quickplay is where they can go to have fun and not be stomped. You introduce duos to that equation coupled with a temperamental matchmaker and they have no "safe space" left where they feel they can give as good as they take. In group, even two T3s working together, with complementary mech builds can carve a path through a team. You put two T3s in srm bombers with a pre-arranged game plan against 12 randoms, you're gonna get havoc. Even with matchmaker active, you put me and say, for example, mischiefsc in srmbackers on the same team coordinating our ****, we're gonna win a lot more than we lose. And no offence to mischief but neither of us are truly great pilots (mischief is way better than me tho).

It's not even difficult. All the pair has to do is use a wide loop to sneak up behind the enemy together and shoot the same target until its dead then move to the next. In season 11, this was the only tactic i used in a small group (2-3) to get 8.5kda and a 5.0wlr. Walk walk, boom boom. Call for a push on mic. Boom boom more. Done. Win. Next game.

Solo quickplay is the mode that seems to retain any form of new player no matter how bad the retention rate is. You take part of the chaos that makes it fair away and you might just cripple the game.

I stand corrected. Wait time was the original complaint.

I think with carefully considered restrictions (such as only allowing T4 and T5 as duos and only trial mechs), one duo per team is not such a game breaker. The scenario you pose where two T3s won't happen if those restrictions are in place.

I also think allowing solos to opt-in to the GQ will help reduce the wait time. It may even help teams recruit players.

[LordBraxton]

No. Safe. Spaces.

[MischiefSC]

LordBraxton, on 20 June 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

No. Safe. Spaces.

Not true. There's always the Training Area.

[Vxheous]

You know what, lets do it. 22 pages.....if seals insist on being clubbed, then who am I to not club them

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous, on 20 June 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

You know what, lets do it. 22 pages.....if seals insist on being clubbed, then who am I to not club them

You have now come around to my philosophy on "But muh bracket builds are amazing if I play them right!" forum posts and pugs in FW who refuse to group up, play as a team, coordinate, bring good mechs or even move up from the DZ.

Edited by MischiefSC, 20 June 2018 - 04:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Vxheous, on 20 June 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

You know what, lets do it. 22 pages.....if seals insist on being clubbed, then who am I to not club them

Lol.

Yeah and then watch the salt fortress's be assembled faster than Voltron.

[Tarl Cabot]

Bud Crue, on 19 June 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

It isn't even that those of us opposed don't want it, its more that it will never happen even if we do. PGI has been clear on this both in words and deeds. Solo Queue exists for individual players and Group Queue exists for groups. They are not going to do some sort of hybrid Solo Queue + because they already did and it failed.

It failed because of how PGI had it setup. And to be clear, I would not have faith in PGI coding that would be restrictive enough. But first, no in game VOIP. Hell, we did not have in-game VOIP when CW went live. Followed by no restrictions of forming teams.

Quote

Moreover, Faction Play in its historical form shows the folly of this via every "groups stomping pugs" thread ever. Allowing groups, even small groups into the solo queue would have folks up in arms for the same reasons. PGI knows this and also knows well enough not to allow yet another queue to suffer the horror of true team play (the suffer and horror crack is sarcasm).

Will not argue that, and tons of reasons why it is that way.

Quote

snip

Lets hope so for the sake of those who play the solo queue.

Not need to argue those pieces, because the coding would be so plain that nobody would be happy with it.

But to use an example though, duos only, only one per team, higher tier of the duo and how the hate/disgruntles/mad threads that would spread like wildfire. Allowing even duos into the solo queue would likely see more of the group orientated players, those would are willing and able to drop call be it group/FP, be more willing to drop as a duo while waiting for others to log in. Could be good or bad, depending on which side you are on.

One duo from 228, both vet drop callers vs the other team whose duo from Ragdoll and they do not have any intentional of dropcalling, in fact to go as far as ignoring a dropcaller and doing their own thing, provided there is one. 228 are both Tier 1, Ragdoll is a Tier 1+Tier 5 (new player). 228 pugs aware willing to listen and take directions/cooperate. Ends up as a 12-0. Forums are on fire.

I personally would not mind duo in solo queue, provided the following - Highest Tier is used for the duo, only one duo per team using different weight tiers, unable to opt out of group queue.

justcallme A S H, on 20 June 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

Lol.
Yeah and then watch the salt fortress's be assembled faster than Voltron.

That is true, people are doing it now when the MM does not go their way, showing some player stats but nothing that actually says said players are not in Tier 1-2 (for those threads about T1-T2 players).

Even then, people will complain that a high end T1 duo was pitted against a low end T1 duo. Now for the lower tiers, would it really make that much of a difference, ie cut off are only T4/T5 players?

Still, even though I would be all for just duos, which would not have the ability to opt out of group queue and 2-3 x penalty for dc in a group game or completely prevent any other drops til the end of the match, PGI would make it a clusterfrack. They COULD try but it would likely be a disaster.

Edit - realized I had not saved my reply from yesterday.. tis too funny...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 June 2018 - 03:25 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Aloha, on 20 June 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

I stand corrected. Wait time was the original complaint.

I think with carefully considered restrictions (such as only allowing T4 and T5 as duos and only trial mechs), one duo per team is not such a game breaker. The scenario you pose where two T3s won't happen if those restrictions are in place.

I also think allowing solos to opt-in to the GQ will help reduce the wait time. It may even help teams recruit players.

That's a pretty severe restriction that limita duo dropping to veey few players for a very short period of time in their mwo "career".

I actually used T3 as an example cos T3s can play with anyone from T5 to T1.

Solo add-ins into group queue is an interesting idea but it MAY result in convenient salt from players looking to blame.others for a loss. There's a chance it'll go the solaris route where people use it for a few weeks and then stop.

It actually makes more sense to just fix the bloody matchmaker and turn it on in group queue.

But it can only be fixed when tech bases and mech classes are all balanced. That and the ridiculous "bubble mech" mechanic of tier ranking has to go. It should be zero sum. I mean, i really shouldn't be in tier 1. I'm a middling tier 2 pilot at best. These two changes will give the matchmaker less unaccounted for variables to deal with. A T1 pilot in an IS light should perform as well as a T1 pilot in a clan assault. All the matchmaker has to do then is make tier numbers as equal as possible on both sides.

Ah a man can dream.

[Vesper11]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

Allowing even duos into the solo queue would likely see more of the group orientated players, those would are willing and able to drop call be it group/FP, be more willing to drop as a duo while waiting for others to log in. Could be good or bad, depending on which side you are on.

Sometimes in GP you get a lance that thinks because they are on voice with each other they can carry the team, they usually die first and die fast dooming the team they never actually considered a team. Because some guys play together that doesn't mean they have an advantage if they are not cooperating with the rest of the team (which is why I want to see 5+ groups gone so there won't be perfectly cooperated 12 man sync drops that lead to obvious outcome)

Tarl Cabot, on 20 June 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

228 pugs aware willing to listen and take directions/cooperate. Ends up as a 12-0. Forums are on fire.

It doesn't matter if it's solo or duo, if people are willing to cooperate and coordinate (and not rambo or simply not know english) it's often enough for a victory.

p.s. with current crappy MM and already many battles one sided people are afraid of duo's making battles one sided? Really?

[Tatula]

Wil McCullough, on 20 June 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

That's a pretty severe restriction that limita duo dropping to veey few players for a very short period of time in their mwo "career".

But that's just the way it should be. It's just there to help new players get the lay of the land with the help of a buddy, then off he goes on his own to T3 or QP with his buddy.

Wil McCullough, on 20 June 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

I actually used T3 as an example cos T3s can play with anyone from T5 to T1.

If a player is already in T3, he shouldn't be using this crutch anyways.

Wil McCullough, on 20 June 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Solo add-ins into group queue is an interesting idea but it MAY result in convenient salt from players looking to blame.others for a loss. There's a chance it'll go the solaris route where people use it for a few weeks and then stop.

LOL. That's funny. It's not like those people don't already have plenty of excuses. If the solos choose to opt out after a few weeks, the QP queue will work exactly like it is now. So no biggy there.

Solaris was a great idea, but PGI's implementation is bit quirky. I don't understand why we have these divisions and why only certain mechs can be used. It just seems extremely limiting to me. And on that note, a Battle Royale mode in Solaris would be interesting. Four mechs enter. One mech leaves.

Wil McCullough, on 20 June 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

It actually makes more sense to just fix the bloody matchmaker and turn it on in group queue.

But it can only be fixed when tech bases and mech classes are all balanced. That and the ridiculous "bubble mech" mechanic of tier ranking has to go. It should be zero sum. I mean, i really shouldn't be in tier 1. I'm a middling tier 2 pilot at best. These two changes will give the matchmaker less unaccounted for variables to deal with. A T1 pilot in an IS light should perform as well as a T1 pilot in a clan assault. All the matchmaker has to do then is make tier numbers as equal as possible on both sides.

Ah a man can dream.

It all boils down to the small population. That's why I think if by having the ability to mentor new players there's a chance they'll stay longer, it might be a worthwhile change.