864 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

Vesper11, on 22 June 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

GQ, "casual", lololol, no. I won't explain again why. What you call BS are reasonable arguments, if you fail to see reason then okay. And where have I mentioned casuals only? Semi-casual groups are good for all kinds of players, it's just being able to play with friends is one of more important requirements of an online game for average(that usually means casual) player.

Group queue is just as casual as solo queue, except there are groups of friends playing together there. I play group queue casually, with my wife and a few friends. Just because our skill level is vastly superior to 99% of the population doens't mean we're not being casual in group queue.

[Weeny Machine]

Vesper11, on 22 June 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

What we have in MWO is not what people usually call MM, it's an excuse for one. The game already has snowballing mostly caused by people not knowing basic tactics. But the game doesn't have enjoyable "casually play with friend(s)" mode and even in GQ people with same level of coordination as average QP player aren't rare so you can't say that it will create more problems than benefits. In worst case PGI can always remove it if it's that bad.
But really, I'd like a working MM first but PGI doesn't seem very interested in it.

I completely agree with you on the part that the MM is not working at all. Even alone because everyone hits T1 sooner or later.

You see, this is also a reason why no groups should be allowed into QP. And we all know that the system won't get fixed. So, we can end the discussion, can't we?

[Tatula]

Spheroid, on 22 June 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

@Aloha: I told the reality. I drop the mode every single day. My experience is extensive. Do you FP?

Not currently. I did before, with a team and as a solo, but I'm a casual player and don't want to get tied down 20-30 minutes at a time for a FP match. Scouting got old really fast. So I mainly play QP. When I did play with a team, we usually have 4 to 6 people at a time. Sometimes more. It was pretty good because we have a caller who will direct our actions. Even though we tried sharing our comms on the in-game VOIP, other members on our team sometimes go off and do their own thing. So it's usually us trying to carry the match as best we can. When I played solo in FP, very rarely does the bigger teams share comms with the solos. So it's me trying to follow the main group and support them as best I can.

What I can tell you is FP is NOT like QP, or even GQ. The objectives are different. The maps are different. And the strategies are different. If you drop into FP with trial mech deck, may as well get ready to be ignored, or worse.

[Roughneck45]

Funny how this seems to pop a few times a year for what, like 4-5 years now?.

Small groups used to be in QP. People complained and it got changed to what we have now. Seriously doubt its going back.

No matter what PGI does to MM or group sizes or whatever, snowballs will be the norm, some folks will be unhappy with how the system works, and some will always feel MM is broken because they lose too much.

Would have liked a ranked and unranked mode from the start, but oh well.

I understand wanting to introduce a friend to the game without having the enthusiasm stomped out of them. Maybe a buddy system or something, while someone is in their cadet matches they can drop with a single friend into QP.

Edited by Roughneck45, 22 June 2018 - 03:11 PM.

[Spheroid]

People just want to farm bots in coop. Forget it, that is MW5 and that game is delayed until 2019.

[Vesper11]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Group queue is just as casual as solo queue, except there are groups of friends playing together there. I play group queue casually, with my wife and a few friends. Just because our skill level is vastly superior to 99% of the population doens't mean we're not being casual in group queue.

While it is, on off-NA hours it takes a while to find people, I don't even try to play with my friend anymore as he lives in SEA timezone and I live in EU timezone so the only time we can play together is when there are no games. Meeting large (8-12, sometimes syncdropped so tonnage restrictions do not apply) stacks that stomp the opposition only adds negativity to the whole GQ casual play experience, same with even more broken GQ MM that ignores tonnage and can stack lights in one team and assaults in the other.
My friend plays MWO quite a bit and knows how to play, I don't mind some challenge (pubstomp =/= challenge), but those waiting times and poor balance makes the whole experience so bad that I enjoy playing QP more than GQ, and I do want to play with my friend.

p.s. I don't even use voice, we just use general directions and and discuss how the battle went or occasionally spectate and discuss that, which is also enjoyable.
p.p.s. Actually it's quite nice to spectate via Steam, but it would be better if it was an in-game option, without 15second delay, it would also help people coach friends they bring into the game.

Bush Hopper, on 22 June 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

I completely agree with you on the part that the MM is not working at all. Even alone because everyone hits T1 sooner or later.

You see, this is also a reason why no groups should be allowed into QP. And we all know that the system won't get fixed. So, we can end the discussion, can't we?

Sure.

[Vxheous]

Vesper11, on 22 June 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

While it is, on off-NA hours it takes a while to find people, I don't even try to play with my friend anymore as he lives in SEA timezone and I live in EU timezone so the only time we can play together is when there are no games. Meeting large (8-12, sometimes syncdropped so tonnage restrictions do not apply) stacks that stomp the opposition only adds negativity to the whole GQ casual play experience, same with even more broken GQ MM that ignores tonnage and can stack lights in one team and assaults in the other.
My friend plays MWO quite a bit and knows how to play, I don't mind some challenge (pubstomp =/= challenge), but those waiting times and poor balance makes the whole experience so bad that I enjoy playing QP more than GQ, and I do want to play with my friend.

p.s. I don't even use voice, we just use general directions and and discuss how the battle went or occasionally spectate and discuss that, which is also enjoyable.
p.p.s. Actually it's quite nice to spectate via Steam, but it would be better if it was an in-game option, without 15second delay, it would also help people coach friends they bring into the game.

Sure.

Group queue off NA hours is more of a population problem than a group queue problem. I do find it annoying as well because I often play at off NA hours as well with a group of 2-3, and often it takes 5-15 mins to get a match. I think a better solution is to allow solo's to drop into group queue as filler (optional checkmark) so when group queue MM is trying to jigsaw a bunch of small groups together, it can use a single to make that full 12, as opposed to allowing small groups into the solo queue. I often see on my friends list 3-4 different small groups trying to queue in off hours, but none of us can get a match because our groups don't add up to being 12 vs 12.

Edited by Vxheous, 22 June 2018 - 03:23 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous, on 22 June 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

Group queue off NA hours is more of a population problem than a group queue problem. I do find it annoying as well because I often play at off NA hours as well with a group of 2-3, and often it takes 5-15 mins to get a match. I think a better solution is to allow solo's to drop into group queue as filler (optional checkmark) so when group queue MM is trying to jigsaw a bunch of small groups together, it can use a single to make that full 12, as opposed to allowing small groups into the solo queue. I often see on my friends list 3-4 different small groups trying to queue in off hours, but none of us can get a match because our groups don't add up to being 12 vs 12.

I've been asking to pug in GQ since August of 2013.

Because instead of only remembering things like it suits my current argument to remember them I actually go back and read the posts and discussions when changes happen this thread is pretty funny. It was 99% cheering 'OH THANK GOD NO MORE GROUPS IN SOLO QUEUE' and 1% saying 'yeah, but what if we make it so only us BAD players can group up in solo queue? Cuz, uh, think of the children!'

I honestly can't wait for MW5 to come out. Sure, QP and FW population will bottom out but I suspect Solaris will fill back up and I suspect total number of teams signing up for MRBC won't change significantly.

Hey, maybe we can get a stock only season for MRBC! Think they'll put it up for a vote?

[KHETTI]

I noticed the OP referenced WoWs for groups in solo queue (random matches), i play a ton of WoWs and the MM there is an absolute Clusterf**k because of divisions, the MM rarely balances divisions, its common to have 2x 3mans on one side and nothing on the other, throw in that you can drop with totally OP ship combos, and what you get is completely lop sided matches that are a waste of time.
MWO would be absolutely no different, randoms and organized groups mixed doesn't work, it doesn't work in any game period.
BTW if there was no grouping feature in MWO, it would still be a team based game, ie 2 teams (randoms or not) fight each other, notice there's a difference between team based gameplay and organized team based gameplay, they are quite different.

[Vesper11]

MischiefSC, on 22 June 2018 - 07:26 PM, said:

Because instead of only remembering things like it suits my current argument to remember them I actually go back and read the posts and discussions when changes happen this thread is pretty funny. It was 99% cheering 'OH THANK GOD NO MORE GROUPS IN SOLO QUEUE' and 1% saying 'yeah, but what if we make it so only us BAD players can group up in solo queue? Cuz, uh, think of the children!'

Were 2man groups that got removed from QP or more than 2man groups too?

KHETTI, on 23 June 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

I noticed the OP referenced WoWs for groups in solo queue (random matches), i play a ton of WoWs and the MM there is an absolute Clusterf**k because of divisions, the MM rarely balances divisions, its common to have 2x 3mans on one side and nothing on the other, throw in that you can drop with totally OP ship combos, and what you get is completely lop sided matches that are a waste of time.

That's how I feel with large groups in GQ.

[MischiefSC]

Vesper11, on 23 June 2018 - 05:11 AM, said:

Were 2man groups that got removed from QP or more than 2man groups too?



That's how I feel with large groups in GQ.

It was up to 4mans, though 2man groups were still an issue. Because the moment you control at least 1 other person in your team you've got a big advantage both in terms of ability to focus fire and even just credibility. If 1 guy is talking on cons he's like everyone else. The 2man talking on comms is more likely to get results.

A lot goes into it and this game is about 2 teams of 12. Teamwork is a huge force multiplier. That bad players get little value out of this is irrelevant to its real value. Inflicting it on everyone because sometimes the bottom 10% of players could play in 2mans without it being a big deal is selfish and dishonest to use as a justification.

If being in a 2man in QP has 0 advantage or impact then why have it at all? Just play in GQ. 12mans are incredibly rare and at a huge disadvantage for tonnage anyway. The people stomping you in GQ are other 2-4mans most of the time. There's no logic to saying that would happen in QP, save the hope that you'll get to be in a 2man vs just terribad pigs or an even worse 2man. That's not realistic. Because of the advantage being in a 2man provides it would (if it happened, which it won't) require inflated score in the MM, so you'd be playing against better players than you would while pugging. For most players this makes sense because, again, a 2man is way more effective consistently than solo. For bads though (the same people getting farmed in GQ) it's of less value so it'll just mean they get farmed more and their teams are sandbagged by a 2man that can't carry what they're expected to carry.

As always if someone is losing more than they want the solution is not to try and change the game to let them win more anyway. Play on the same field and by the same rules as everyone else. Why is that considered so terrible and unfair?

[Khobai]

PGI posted statistics once, and 2 mans make up like 80%-90% of groups.

IMO the game should allow 2 mans in solo queue

have a limit of one 2 man per team and make sure each team gets a 2 man so neither team is disadvantaged in that regard

while group queue should allow group sizes of 3-9 and 12 (but not 10 or 11 since you wouldnt have 1 man or 2 man groups)

that allows you to drop with a friend without having to go in group queue. and it wouldnt really screw up solo queue since each team would be guaranteed to get a 2 man group.

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

If being in a 2man in QP has 0 advantage or impact then why have it at all?

um to play with a friend without having to deal with group queue which is a HUGE disadvantage for 2 mans

its not about trying to gain an advantage in solo queue, its about not having to deal with toxicity of group queue.

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

12mans are incredibly rare and at a huge disadvantage for tonnage anyway

its the 6-8 size groups that are mostly the problem though. not 12 mans.

theyre the ones you dont want to face as a 2 man in group queue

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 08:00 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 23 June 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

PGI posted statistics once, and 2 mans make up like 80%-90% of groups.

IMO the game should allow 2 mans in solo queue

have a limit of one 2 man per team and make sure each team gets a 2 man so neither team is disadvantaged in that regard

while group queue should allow group sizes of 3-9 and 12 (but not 10 or 11 since you wouldnt have 1 man or 2 man groups)

that allows you to drop with a friend without having to go in group queue. and it wouldnt really screw up solo queue since each team would be guaranteed to get a 2 man group.



um to play with a friend without having to deal with group queue which is a HUGE disadvantage for 2 mans

its not about trying to gain an advantage in solo queue, its about not having to deal with toxicity of group queue.



its the 6-8 size groups that are mostly the problem though. not 12 mans.

theyre the ones you dont want to face as a 2 man in group queue

You're more likely to be WITH the 6-8man in GQ. 6 is about as big as a team can get without ramping up penalties. 4mans are generally the strongest potential groups in GQ.

Are you saying that QP isn't as toxic as GQ? Really?

It absolutely screw solos because now there's an independent team with the advantages that gives on their team and the enemy team and the impact of bad matchmaking on 2man groups is multiplied. At least with 12 random law of large numbers helps you iut. With 2mans even that goes out the window.

Everyone keeps using euphemisms for it but this is about letting people team up vs pugs because playing vs other groups is harder than playing vs pugs.

However 2mans play and win in GQ all the time. Playing in a 2man isn't a disadvantage - you have more tonnage available. However the MM isn't as effective (in theory, MM in QP is iffy too) and you can't derp as much because you're representing a bigger piece of your team. Same as everyone else.

People need to quit trying to force solo queue to be their punching bag to make them feel better. Wait for MW5 and smash bots.

[Khobai]

MischiefSC, on 23 June 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

Are you saying that QP isn't as toxic as GQ? Really?

solo QP is less toxic than GQ by far

Quote

You're more likely to be WITH the 6-8man in GQ. 6 is about as big as a team can get without ramping up penalties. 4mans are generally the strongest potential groups in GQ.

sometimes. but then the 2 mans on the other team are screwed.

either way theres 2 man groups that arnt having fun.

group queue is bad because it doesnt balance the sizes of groups on both teams.

I mean thats another option, balance the group sizes on each team, but that would increase queue times. id rather just see 2 mans in solo queue.

Edited by Khobai, 23 June 2018 - 08:28 AM.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 14 June 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

A 2 man can swing a pug game without much effort

Actually when the other side also has it, not so much.



Then again, I've had a lot of experience both in and against 2, 3 and 4 man premades. Game was a lot more fun back then, even against them on my own.



Part of my playlist from the 2-4 man premades in solo queue.
This, and many of my other "Troll" builds are while actually playing solo. CommandTroll (Commando), Trollbuchet (Trebuchet), are done solo. Flamer Centurion, Awesome and Stalker are both done as part of a group and solo to great effect (when flamers were useless but cool).

Edited by Koniving, 23 June 2018 - 08:32 AM.

[Koniving]

Things people used to do with the old premades in solo queue...


Train new players. o.O;

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 23 June 2018 - 08:23 AM, said:

solo QP is less toxic than GQ by far



sometimes. but then the 2 mans on the other team are screwed.

either way theres 2 man groups that arnt having fun.

group queue is bad because it doesnt balance the sizes of groups on both teams.

I mean thats another option, balance the group sizes on each team, but that would increase queue times. id rather just see 2 mans in solo queue.

Your experience in QP does not match mine. Unless you call "toxic" not winning as much.

I would rather groups stay in group queue and solo players in solo queue.

[Nightbird]

Koniving, on 23 June 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

Actually when the other side also has it, not so much.

Just anecdotal evidence. Just take a look at Jarl's, you can identify people with high MS and high W/L that are playing solo quick play. If, just by themselves, they can carry their team to victory 70-80% of the time, then two of them together will win 90%+. What the other side has doesn't matter at this point since the stats also includes that.

[Koniving]

Nightbird, on 23 June 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

Just anecdotal evidence. Just take a look at Jarl's, you can identify people with high MS and high W/L that are playing solo quick play. If, just by themselves, they can carry their team to victory 70-80% of the time, then two of them together will win 90%+. What the other side has doesn't matter at this point since the stats also includes that.

If you look at that list, you also see that their stats include all game types, including GROUP QUEUE!!!!!

And most of the higher end guys don't play anything but.

[Nightbird]

Koniving, on 23 June 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

If you look at that list, you also see that their stats include all game types, including GROUP QUEUE!!!!!

And most of the higher end guys don't play anything but.

Can't get high MS in group queue, not enough time to carry if your team is strong and rolls the other team.