657 replies to this topic

[Green Spleen Submarine]

Why do you hate this game?

[unwary]

Less nerfing, more buffing.

[Kamikaze Viking]

CK16, on 26 June 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Great feedback as usual from the community...all pitch forks and torches but no real answers.

We gave them already, no sense in repeating it again. Here they are - https://mwomercs.com...pon-balance-21/

this has the most consensus of any suggestion so far and the most comprehensive look at weapon balance by people who actually play at the top level and understand all the playstyles.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Jax Endsleigh, on 26 June 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

These high alpha builds are simply not sustainable, easily countered and generally fit a particular player and play style... These are not a problem.

Totally agree. Even the DWF with 2xGauss, 2xHeavy Large Laser and 6xERML and max skills only gets one alpha off before it needs to go and hide.

Getting off two shots and having each shot have the same amount of effective damage on target (first half second of laser burn and gauss impact) will be a big buff to gauss vomit.

I don't think people will actually be happier with more accurate (less burn duration) and cooler clan lasers.

IS lights and mediums will no longer be the KINGS OF TRADING.

[A Headless Chicken]

Phyrce, on 26 June 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

The vitriol in this community is hilarious. Buffing things isn't the answer, never has been. Everyone makes the argument "nerf one thing and another one in the line takes its place" its the EXACT same for buffing weapons. You will never have parity, nor should that be the goal. There will always be a meta weapon for a given situation regardless of the nerfs/buffs. The wave of sodium over small nerfs is staggering.

Reasons why we would like to see buffs is because we have been seeing nerfs for the past few years, which have led to this. Doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over expecting the result to change is the definition of insanity, amirite? By this point, I'd like to say that the balance masters should be replaced, because having them come up with nerf after stupid nerf is tiring.

Also, there will always be a meta weapon and meta playstyle and I don't deny that, because now we do have a few meta weapons and playstyles - only because because everything else is in the trash compressor. My idea of parity is having all weapons viable in loadouts rather than dead in the water.

For the people complaining about the salt and vitriol with no solid changes to propose, look at the two community balance proposals that have been completely ignored because obviously the balance master knows how to spreadsheet and PGI values the community's feedback.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

SneekiBreeki, on 26 June 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

EDIT: Also before someone comes in and disregards the PvE idea as bad then i'll let you know this: many a mech game (I.E. Exteel and SD Gundam Online) in the past managed to keep both user bases (casuals and comps) hooked by having both PvP and PvE gamemodes.

I miss SDGO so much these days; I'd probably have never started playing this fool game if the plug on it hadn't been pulled.

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 26 June 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Great feedback as usual from the community...all pitch forks and torches but no real answers. If you botch about changes atleast give them ideas how to improve instead of sound like a whiney child....

Show proof why X,Y,Z changed are bad, or need refinement. The truth is there is issues with Alpha warrior online l lately FoR BOTH SIDESx nerfs need to happen to make the game better for all...work with dev's and stop throwing temper tantrum

Are you serious?

Constructive feedback was given in the earlier thread PGI made about this and in the two "Community Balance" threads before that. With math! Though not all of it is even math-based, some of it is a pure mechanics thing:

• Recoil can't do anything because recoil only desyncs anything fired within a half second or so after the Gauss.
  
• Linking Gauss in with Larges for ghost heat can't work because you can fire the Gauss more than a half second after the lasers to avoid it entirely

So the other option they gave you for Gauss was to reduce its damage, but do you want that? Does it really need that? Why haven't we explored heat? Why haven't we explored making standard Gauss as desirable as HGauss to the IS in some other way? What about ammo?

Do we really think MCIIs are that much better than Annihilators that we have to be going through this whole schtick when IS seem to be performing just fine in FP when both teams are even? Do we really want a higher TTK when QP matches have devolved into mindless zerging because the fatmechs can survive so well now that nobody feels threatened enough to duck and instead feel emboldened to just out-DPS anything in front of them? Are you trying to give me more time to pad my stats in a match or would you rather allow lesser players more of a chance at taking me down through a lucky shot with a lower TTK?

Please go meditate.

[Y E O N N E]

Vee Vee, on 26 June 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Some good suggestions here re heatsinks and coolshots worth looking at but basically Taro and co community balance document seems like the best place to start for a PTS.

Jman has suggested they look at tapering off DHS effectiveness after you get more than a certain amount. That may work, by presenting a practical upper limit to your cap and dissipation, but it's crude and not at all apparent in-game.

IMHO, the better way is to take a page out of Real Life ™ and have dissipation slow down the colder you are. That is to say, when you are at 98% heat or so, you get maximum dissipation allowed by the number of sinks you have. It would then slow down along an exponential curve as you cool off closer to 0% until it gets to some determined minimum dissipation rate.

What this does is allows you to make that big alpha but, because you need a portion of your cap that is stuck behind that slower slower dissipation, it results in a longer wait between shots.That means your position can be exploited better by the OpFor. This also means that builds which sacrifice some alpha for DPS are buffed, because they can continue to fire closer to the top.

It essentially accomplishes the same effect as Jman's suggestion, and increases the trade-offs made to have a big alpha, but you can better see it in-game because it gets displayed in real-time on your heat gauge as you can see it speed up the dissipation as it gets closer to the top and slow down as it gets closer to the bottom. That's better than requiring players to do the math to work out the return-on-investment for going over some arbitrary number of DHS. It also means every DHS added continues to provide as much benefit as the previous.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 June 2018 - 09:02 PM.

[SneekiBreeki]

IdToaster, on 26 June 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

I miss SDGO so much these days; I'd probably have never started playing this fool game if the plug on it hadn't been pulled.

I kinda miss it too but the routing torwards the Hong Kong servers (i used to play there for several reasons) for me became unstable to the point were the game became unplayable.

You know what i miss more than SDGO tho? Exteel.

Edited by SneekiBreeki, 26 June 2018 - 06:52 PM.

[Mcgral18]

CK16, on 26 June 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

Great feedback as usual from the community...all pitch forks and torches but no real answers. If you botch about changes atleast give them ideas how to improve instead of sound like a whiney child....

Show proof why X,Y,Z changed are bad, or need refinement. The truth is there is issues with Alpha warrior online l lately FoR BOTH SIDESx nerfs need to happen to make the game better for all...work with dev's and stop throwing temper tantrum

You know, it's not like the community has been coming up with superior answers for the past five years...
We've repeatedly discussed it
It has been ignored the majority of the time


Remember, competent players are on an Island.
Nerfs have been happening for years all around

That's why PPC Gauss no longer exists
That's why small laser brawling no longer exists
That's why SRM brawling rarely exists
That's why the current option is the current best option...everything else was gimped


You need to stop gimping at some point, and bring things to an even level
That level not being rock bottom

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

Lol guys, you are over reacting and I can't decide if i want to laugh or cry...

Gauss Recoil less than HG breaking the game... are we playing the same game?
It will not even have ANY effect on the builds.

It will however make them very unfun to use
That can be as important a factor as any


The game is progressively becoming less and less fun with the removal of playstyles for "balance"

Phyrce, on 26 June 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

The vitriol in this community is hilarious. Buffing things isn't the answer, never has been. Everyone makes the argument "nerf one thing and another one in the line takes its place" its the EXACT same for buffing weapons. You will never have parity, nor should that be the goal. There will always be a meta weapon for a given situation regardless of the nerfs/buffs. The wave of sodium over small nerfs is staggering.

There will always be a better weapon, yes
But that weapon should never be X% too superior compared to another
It should have a counter


PGI has repeatedly been nerfing counters, without buffing anything else
We're too far into a nerf spiral

There needs to be some buffs, least all fun be removed

[Mystere]

Jman5, on 26 June 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

I still think making heatsink effectiveness taper off as you equip more is a viable way reign in these high alphas without hurting smaller mechs with smaller alphas. One thing all these clan laserboats seem to have in common is an enormous amount of heatsinks equipped.

I think this would also improve balance between the larger and smaller mechs.

That sounds to me like punishing even more Mechs that are already being punished for having equipment they cannot even remove.

[Clydewinder]

doesn't matter when hardpoint inflation, clanXL, and c DHS are balance proof

[Tesunie]

Reminder to people: These changes are happening in the PTS. They are NOT going into the LIVE GAME. So, please. Direct your feedback there, rather than "kneejerk reaction" with complaints and threats to leave the game because of these "changes".

They aren't happening right now. PGI is doing the right thing by PTS these changes, rather than making them go live. Then gathering feedback.

I'll also reiterate as well, they are intending to do multiple tests. These changes are unlikely to be finalized changes placed into the game.

Please, keep this in mind as you comment.

[A Headless Chicken]

Tesunie, on 26 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Reminder to people: These changes are happening in the PTS. They are NOT going into the LIVE GAME. So, please. Direct your feedback there, rather than "kneejerk reaction" with complaints and threats to leave the game because of these "changes".

They aren't happening right now. PGI is doing the right thing by PTS these changes, rather than making them go live. Then gathering feedback.

I'll also reiterate as well, they are intending to do multiple tests. These changes are unlikely to be finalized changes placed into the game.

Please, keep this in mind as you comment.

I'd just like to point out that the very fact that they suggested these mostly irrelevant and shortsighted nerfs is telling of how much they value community feedback and their own balancing capabilities.

[Noguchi-san]

PGI should bring https://docs.google....t#gid=690037742 on the PTS. Then they would listening to the Com - Instead they'd rather keep lying.

[Shadowomega1]

We give feedback on their options, are given great ways to fix the issue, yet they want to keep going their route. I will keep pushing locking Heat cap to be locked at 35 and than we will hear the end of massive alpha strikes. As anyone trying to go do that post patch will just pop their mech. With it buff DHS from .15 to either .26 or to .3 and see what happens from there.

[justcallme A S H]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

the overall solution that we are looking to implement is one that directly addresses the damage discrepancy between the effective alpha damage cap of 94 damage on the Clan side compared to the 60-65 damage that the Inner Sphere typically caps out at. With the intent of narrowing this discrepancy down into a state that is not so lopsided towards one faction.

Chris & Co you are essentially just chasing a boogeyman. Which I think only 3 or 4 mechs can run. You have the Clan 94pt Boogeyman

But you aren't at worried at all about the... IS 86pt Boogeyman.

Clan one has an insanely high burn time/duration, higher cooldown, mech has no agility/cant twist and shocking hitboxes but quite a bit more range.

The IS one has far less range but it gains a pile of armour quirks, great hitboxes, barely any burn time/duration to speak of with the HGauss pinpoint and faster cooldown...

They are both quite niche in their own way. It is dynamic.

Why does it matter so much that it has become a precursor for yet another global nerf which, as usual, is going to hit the Med/Light & tonnage locked Hvy Clan Mechs and those that run a single Gauss which is a dozen options... Far more than it will a DWF/MCII.

I mean you drop the DWF Alpha by 8pts (predictably), it is still doing 86pts @ nearly 500m.

This is just so misguided yet again... Come on dudes, let the niche/dynamic exist.

[Tesunie]

A Headless Chicken, on 26 June 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

I'd just like to point out that the very fact that they suggested these mostly irrelevant and shortsighted nerfs is telling of how much they value community feedback and their own balancing capabilities.

Once again, as I mentioned before, you can't "buff everything else" and expect it to be good either. Constant buffs don't work, as it just leads to everything be "too powerful". Then you "buff" armor, and then... Sometimes, it's better to nerf an item, rather than buff everything else in the game.

I will also mention, they already gave out a lot of buffs before they started to work on these nerfs. Or are you claiming to be "shortsighted" and not recall those buffs?

To mention a few:
- LRM velocity buffed.
- IS mechs got quirks (to counter Clans, not an individual chassis problem against IS).
- PPCs got a velocity buff (shortly after gaining GH with Gauss I believe).

So no. They have not "nerfed" everything recently. And... PTS. I'd rather see changes there and be tested, rather than go live and make things lopsided. Let PGI work this through and gain data. If you want to help, go in and play the PTS when it's out and provide accurate data for them to see if it worked or not. If what you say is true, then it shouldn't work, and thus PGI's number gathering should tell them otherwise.

If you even go and provide actual feedback, that would be even better. Provide (polite) explanation on how it "felt" with the changes, rather than go in gun ho already setting things up for failure. Their changes may surprise you once you play with it live... Or it's exactly what you say it is and are right. Either way, go in unbiased and with an open mind about things.

[Y E O N N E]

ER PPCs got a velocity buff to go with the Gauss+PPC ghost-heat link, but standard PPCs got nothing. The HPPC also got nerfed despite not actually being good enough to warrant a nerf on its own merits...because the standard PPC is so mediocre that few people want to run it anyway. People still generally don't run it, and they will continue to not run it no matter what you do to the HPPC or cERPPC until it gets improved.

I will say, the LRM buff was exactly the wrong kind of buff, so there's one credit to "constant buffs don't work", I guess.

[justcallme A S H]

Tesunie, on 26 June 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Reminder to people: These changes are happening in the PTS. They are NOT going into the LIVE GAME. So, please. Direct your feedback there, rather than "kneejerk reaction" with complaints and threats to leave the game because of these "changes".

They aren't happening right now. PGI is doing the right thing by PTS these changes, rather than making them go live. Then gathering feedback.

These proposed changes are just outright silly and should never have even gone to a PTS.

Look how many people are already annoyed at it, that is the key point from all of this.