657 replies to this topic

[Grus]

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...s-and-planning/
I'm going to just start posting this link to the balance plan

There is apparently a plan to balance towards the middle to avoid power creep which means reducing teh top and raising the bottom. This means that small lasers will likely get some/ a lot of love sometime soon.

so the small clan mech's the don't have the durability to brawl (let's hold off on the mobility) are now going to be forced to get CLOSER to the fight in order to deal damage and due to this change (if it goes in) will be closer and easier targets to hit by better armored and more durable IS mechs.... seems fair.

[Agent of Change]

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

Can a competent person educate the guy above please? I'm way too tired to repeat myself for the uptenth time...

Why? I've educated myself and the devs have laid out their plan. It's not a perfect plan or even an ideal plan but it's a much better plan than "buff everything up"... which is what the community doc would do if implemented as written... which is the very definition of power creep.

If you hit me with the "taking away fun" argument... well that's subjective and for my part a game with more viable builds that also extends TTK would be more fun.

But really if you are ok with current or shorter TTK then we aren't going to see eye to eye. But I'm sure someone who can speak on your level will come along to educate you. Hey I can condescend too... it is pretty fun

Edited by Agent of Change, 27 June 2018 - 09:32 AM.

[Grus]

As for the cGauss added camera shake... WTF? No! There's absolutely no reason for it. Marking them ALL ( clan is) shake due to... reasons... Ok, is still say no. Hgauss shake? Yeah. No reason for normal or light to have a shake

[Gas Guzzler]

I predict the same group of people will say "This is a great direction for MWO" and the other group will say "This is ridiculous... you can't fix bad play by nerfing certain playstyles"

I see we are still at the status quo. Balance by LCD.

[SneekiBreeki]

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

Why I've educated myself, and the devs have laid out their plan. It's not a perfect plan or even an ideal plan but it's a much better plan than buff everything up... which is what the community doc would do if implemented as written... which is teh very definition of power creep.

If you hit me with the "taking away fun" argument... well that's subjective and for my part a game with more viable builds that also extends TTK would be more fun.

But really if you are ok with current or shorter TTK then we aren't going to see eye to eye. But I'm sure someone who speak on your level will come along to educate you. Hey I can condescend too... it is pretty fun

So in your eyes buffing weapons that are completely useless in the current meta to a point where they're not hot garbage nor overpowered but useful is powercreep amirite? I guess you'll like the next iteration of this game: WetNoodle-warrrior Online then.

Also in regards to the TTK argument i shall repeat myself... again. TTK isn't short atm, if you're dying way too quickly you did something wrong.

And as a counter to your "counter argument" i'm gonna ask you this: how come the competent players can survive long enough to perform decently if not to carry entire teams?

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

Outside of the odd headshot, TTK in this game is abysmally long unless you're just merrily standing in front of the entire enemy team - and even that's survivable on occasion.

[Navid A1]

I see a lot of comments where people are saying that buffing is not the right way.

The thing they don't get is the requests for buffs are not for top performing clan lasers. People want buffs to weapons that were removed from existence due to extensive nerfs.

Since 2012, everything has been going down. Everything has been about nerfs... everything has been about how build X and Y can be messed with. How they can make that ok weapon to go extinct.

I really don't know what PGI is looking for?

Longer TTK must happen naturally. Forcing it just makes the game a frustrating experience

[Agent of Change]

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

So in your eyes buffing weapons that are completely useless in the current meta to a point where they're not hot garbage nor overpowered but useful is powercreep amirite? I guess you'll like the next iteration of this game: WetNoodle-warrrior Online then.

Also in regards to the TTK argument i shall repeat myself... again. TTK isn't short atm, if you're dying way too quickly you did something wrong.

And as a counter to your "counter argument" i'm gonna ask you this: how come the competent players can survive long enough to perform decently if not to carry entire teams?

I didn't say that or at least you clearly haven't read what I have said or what the devs have said. I refer to chart 3 here:
https://mwomercs.com...s-and-planning/

The plan is to bring the top end towards teh middle and bring the bottom end up towards the middle. Which has the effect of Making the over used weapons (and they are overused for a reason) a little less powerful which acts as an implict performance increase to teh all weapons currently less effective than them. Then bringing the bottom end weapons (which are again underused for a reason) up on the power scale towards the middle, which coincidentally acts as an implicit reduction of power of all teh weapons above them. But the end result is all of the weapons being closer together in power level without raising the overall power level towards the current high end.

This logically leads to a system that allows for more varied builds because more weapons are reasonably viable. Will there still be optimized builds? yes. Stand out weapons? of course. But the distance between hyper-optomized and not is narrowed quite a bit which will more likely result in more variety of builds present in both competitive and casual play. At least far more likely than the status quo.

I don't really agree that squashing the top first and delaying bringing up the most under performing weapons towards the middle is the best play. I think bringing the under performers to the middle first would be a better approach... but in either case I do think The top end needs to be cut back at least a little bit. But it's also a very complex system and trying to implement just a piece at a time while good incremental design is never going to be able to give you a big picture view and will get fouled up chasing short term balance over the long run.

It would honestly be better to do a major balance overhaul all at once in theory... but in practice that isn't feasible so we go with what we have.

We can argue about TTK all we want, but so long as Assault mechs can be cored out in seconds by 2 or three mechs I'm goign to be hard pressed to shift my opinion. To answer your question "how come the competent players can survive long enough to perform decently if not to carry entire team?"

Well quite frankly mostly it's not being shot, using ecm and terrain and teammates as cover and waiting for soft targets. TTK isn't how long you last in a match that argument is an obfuscation, TTK is how long you last under fire and right now even pros melt instantly when focused down by even 2 or 3 competent players. Right now teh essence of being a competent player is not being fired on any more than is absolutely necessary, expose only long enough to fire and then hide again while trying to draw as little attention as possible. The reason poke and hide is the preferred play style? Short TTK. I'm not saying exceptions don't occur but this is why getting folks to push is so difficult... and why crawling is far less common than it used to be.

Edited by Agent of Change, 27 June 2018 - 09:56 AM.

[Hal Greaves]

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

But really if you are ok with current or shorter TTK then we aren't going to see eye to eye. But I'm sure someone who can speak on your level will come along to educate you. Hey I can condescend too... it is pretty fun

Increasing TTK will not benefit you in the slightest, and only make those players that sit above you on the food chain that much further away from you, skill wise. Remember: They will get an increase too. While still also being able to put their shots on the same spot again and again.

[Agent of Change]

Hal Greaves, on 27 June 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

Increasing TTK will not benefit you in the slightest, and only make those players that sit above you on the food chain that much further away from you, skill wise. Remember: They will get an increase too. While still also being able to put their shots on the same spot again and again.

That's fine too, reward skill on the field more than skill in the mech bay.

[Conner Ward]

If this goes live, I hope that Support will be able to refund me whatever cash/MC/CBills/XP/GXP that I, or anyone else, has spent on these "Clan" Mechs.

[GweNTLeR]

Guys, why dont we just have Energy draw mechanic?
The last iteration ended with the following KEY changes:
• The Gauss charge mechanic has been removed.
• Reduced Damage of Inner Sphere Large Pulse Laser from 11 to 10 .(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Reduced Clan Large Pulse Laser Max Range from 1200 to 840.(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Heat increased from 1.0 to 1.5 for AC5 family (AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Weapon Cooldown duration has been increased by 15%.(I'd say we are close to this, since many quirked mechs were nerfed and CD module is replaced with Cd nodes)
• Inner Sphere and Clan Double Heatsink threshold and dissipation rates have been normalized(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Clan Double Heatsink Component Health reduced from 10 to 6.6.(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• SRM spread increased (AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
Regarding the current state of GH vs ED:
Gauss+PPC combo was nerfed with GH (the same would be with ED)
4xUAC10 combo was nerfed with GH(the same would be with ED)
clan laser weapons are gonna be nerfed with GH/just nerfs(the same would be with ED)
See the trend? So why not? It was a pretty good universal system which is mostly implemented anyway.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 27 June 2018 - 10:14 AM.

[teh Reika]

Hell have a big alfa...
MK2 have a big alfa...
OK. DESTROY all c-lasers and c-gauss on all c-mechs...
WAT??!!!111

[Weeny Machine]

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 09:24 AM, said:

TTK is already way sensibly high, if you get instakilled in the current iteration of the game then you did something stupid and it's entirely your fault as a player.

When a light mech eats one of those lucky salvos, he loses a part or is so shot up that any further damage to this section means that he will lose it.
Especially 35t lights are quite tall and not really that agile.

Why do you think heavies and assaults are mostly played? Simply because the game leans too much towards armour and firepower, especially towards huge alphas.

[SneekiBreeki]

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

*sinp*.

If you agree with buffing the underperforming weapons then you must've missed the fact that SEVERAL competent and competitive players alike agree on a clan ermedium/heavy large laser damage nerf, What's stupid is the gauss nerf since clan gauss rifles have NEVER been the problem balance wise in the current meta.

Agent of Change, on 27 June 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

The reason poke and hide is the preferred play style? Short TTK.

On this you're wrong, peak and poke style is the preferred one for this reason: mobility got nerfed into the ground.

With mechs being unable to spread damage through torso twist like they used to you're ofc going to suffer much more from burst DPS peak and poke builds.There's also several other reasons as for why peak and poke style is prevalent nowadays but i'm not gonna post them here for they have already been repeatedly posted in this same thread and for i don't want to type a wall of text.

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

When a light mech eats one of those lucky salvos, he loses a part or is so shot up that any further damage to this section means that he will lose it.
Especially 35t lights are quite tall and not really that agile.

Why do you think heavies and assaults are mostly played? Simply because the game leans too much towards armour and firepower, especially towards huge alphas.

Then ask for the RIGHT solution to this "light mech problem": resizing and mobility buffs.

Destroying playstyles and nerfing weapons that aren't an issue in the first place is only a bandaid to a series of different underlying problems.

Edited by SneekiBreeki, 27 June 2018 - 10:14 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

Why do you think heavies and assaults are mostly played? Simply because the game leans too much towards armour and firepower, especially towards huge alphas.

This is the biggest part of the TTK issue. Lights and Mediums should be fragile but right now they just disposable most of the time. They haven't been given objective so necessary that they can't be routinely ignored in favor of a death ball. (try playing the objectives as a lighter fast mech and see how many people heap scorn upon you). The most effective light mechs rely almost entirely on speed/lag/hit detection shield and jacked up hit boxes to survive, most 40-45 ton mechs don't even have those advantages. Should a light or medium that gets caught out and does something stupid get punished, yes, but it shouldn't always be an execution because one mech got a solid hit on you.

Edited by Agent of Change, 27 June 2018 - 10:17 AM.

[SneekiBreeki]

As i've already typed in my edited post there's a solution to the light and medium mech fragility: mobility and rescaling.

For the love of god or whatever you believe in ask for the right fixes, not for useful bandaids that will do more harm than anything else.

Edited by SneekiBreeki, 27 June 2018 - 10:22 AM.

[Agent of Change]

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you agree with buffing the underperforming weapons then you must've missed the fact that SEVERAL competent and competitive players alike agree on a clan ermedium/heavy large laser damage nerf, What's stupid is the gauss nerf since clan gauss rifles have NEVER been the problem balance wise in the current meta.

I haven't missed that, and the lasers are the issue here. The only "nerf" being proposed is a littel recoil effect... which we can see in the PTS and weigh in on. If all it does is desync the ability to pinpoint gauss and lasers at the same time that's probably good enough, any more i agree would be over kill... but the underlying issue is the lasers so dealing with them might make teh recoil unnecessary... we will see.

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

On this you're wrong, peak and poke style is the preferred one for this reason: mobility got nerfed into the ground.

With mechs being unable to spread damage through torso twist like they used to you're ofc going to suffer much more from burst DPS peak and poke builds.There's also several other reasons as for why peak and poke style is prevalent nowadays but i'm not gonna post them here for they have already been repeatedly posted in this same thread and for i don't want to type a wall of text.

The slow down of mech torsos is a bit of an issue... which has reduced the ability spread damage, which has led to.... a shorter than ideal TTK which is why people are hiding rather than getting shot at because if they didn't they'd die faster than they deemed otherwise reasonable. We are ACTUALLY agreeing here, really we are regardless of whether or not you'd like to admit it.

Would even just speeding up torso twist movement change the game and increase TTK and make other playstyles more viable even without changes to weapons... well yes yes it would and I'd support that. would bringing all the weapons closer together in power still be something that should be addressed... yes, and I'd argue it would still be wise to move them towards teh current middle of the power scale. (Bottom up to middle first)

SneekiBreeki, on 27 June 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

As i've already typed in my edited post there's a solution to the light and medium mech fragility: mobility and rescaling.

For the love of god or whatever you believe in ask for the right fixes, not for useful bandaids that will do more harm than anything else.

I'll ask for what i think is reasonably going to be implemented by PGI. We can argue about the platonic ideal of Balance and design in MWO but what's the point if it's not something that is going to get done?

The funny thing about this is we really are on the same page (mostly) there are a few key details we differ on that would adjust the direction of balance but in the main we aren't seeing different things, mostly it's a matter of interpretation of data.

Edited by Agent of Change, 27 June 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

GweNTLeR, on 27 June 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Guys, why dont we just have Energy draw mechanic?
The last iteration ended with the following KEY changes:
• The Gauss charge mechanic has been removed.
• Reduced Damage of Inner Sphere Large Pulse Laser from 11 to 10 .(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Reduced Clan Large Pulse Laser Max Range from 1200 to 840.(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Heat increased from 1.0 to 1.5 for AC5 family (AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Weapon Cooldown duration has been increased by 15%.(I'd say we are close to this, since many quirked mechs were nerfed and CD module is replaced with Cd nodes)
• Inner Sphere and Clan Double Heatsink threshold and dissipation rates have been normalized(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• Clan Double Heatsink Component Health reduced from 10 to 6.6.(AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
• SRM spread increased (AREADY IMPLEMENTED)
Regarding the current state of GH vs ED:
Gauss+PPC combo was nerfed with GH (the same would be with ED)
4xUAC10 combo was nerfed with GH(the same would be with ED)
clan laser weapons are gonna be nerfed with GH/just nerfs(the same would be with ED)
See the trend? So why not? It was a pretty good universal system which is mostly implemented anyway.

No.


Works Cited:

Every single post I have ever made discussing Energy Draw, ever.

[Peiper]

Re-sync the engines please.