657 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Mystere, on 27 June 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

I have one word for that:

CONVERGENCE

It's the 8,000,000-pound gorilla that needs to be addressed, although I am thinking it's already too late for that, fatally too late.



Hence the above.

Agreed. Problem when you start talking about convergence (and recall, delayed convergence died for HSR and to remove the power of the LAG shield) and reducing accuracy under "specific conditions", you get cries and fits of people complaining about "but the skillz", claiming it would reduce higher skilled players and people who have better accuracy... So any time we bring it up it gets shouted down...

Convergence is the issue. It's one of the biggest problems in this game. But try and do something about it and... people like to place a table cloth over that elephant in the room and call it a table...

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

I signed up for a shooter, not some 1PV tabletop game with 13 reticules on my screen.

I'm thinking you missed the whole topic of what convergence actually would mean/be...

[Mystere]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

I signed up for a shooter, not some 1PV tabletop game with 13 reticules on my screen.

Only bad engineers, and people really terrible at math, design 13 reticules. <shrugs>

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Agreed. Problem when you start talking about convergence (and recall, delayed convergence died for HSR and to remove the power of the LAG shield) and reducing accuracy under "specific conditions", you get cries and fits of people complaining about "but the skillz", claiming it would reduce higher skilled players and people who have better accuracy... So any time we bring it up it gets shouted down...

Convergence is the issue. It's one of the biggest problems in this game. But try and do something about it and... people like to place a table cloth over that elephant in the room and call it a table...

IOW, people terrible at math. Math is not supposed to be a skill, I suppose.

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

I'm thinking you missed the whole topic of what convergence actually would mean/be...

That is quite obvious. And sadly he is not alone. They are legion.

Edited by Mystere, 27 June 2018 - 08:00 PM.

[A Headless Chicken]

Be so kind as to fill me in, apart from...

1. "delayed" convergence, which does not change the issues of high damage alphas since pinpoint damage will still be king.

2. "no convergence" where ST weapons are locked facing forward and is generally stupid to begin with.

3. "dice roll damage assignment", where i'd much rather go back to Battletech

[Imperius]

Conner Ward, on 27 June 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

I hope that you are not serious, lasers do not have recoil. We don't need this or &quot;cone of fire&quot; in MWO.

/s stands for sarcasm

[Conner Ward]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

Be so kind as to fill me in, apart from...

1. "delayed" convergence, which does not change the issues of high damage alphas since pinpoint damage will still be king.

2. "no convergence" where ST weapons are locked facing forward and is generally stupid to begin with.

3. "dice roll damage assignment", where i'd much rather go back to Battletech

I agree, it seems like people can not accept the fact that some players can just plain aim better than others and they insist on wanting this game to have an MMORPG style Autoattack/RNG style attack system.

[A Headless Chicken]

Conner Ward, on 27 June 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

I agree, it seems like people can not accept the fact that some players can just plain aim better than others and they insist on wanting this game to have an MMORPG style Autoattack/RNG style attack system.

If they implement 1, nothing will change. 2 would result in a shake up to the meta, but any player worth their salt will still pick choices with high pinpoint - if only arm weapons converged, my MCII-B and SNV-1 would laugh at the newfound power, while the PIR and ANH, EBJ, HBR and who knows what else would quickly become irrelevant.

If they implement 3 "RNGesus and cone-of-fire", the "shooting" game is done for.

Wonder what other intelligent ideas for ｃｏｎｖｅｒｇｅｎｃｅ we have to add on to the list? Figured by now people would realize that it's a buzz word with little hope for practical implementation given the outright lack of discernible impact, stupidity and technical spaghetti code limitations.

[Imperius]

Conner Ward, on 27 June 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

I agree, it seems like people can not accept the fact that some players can just plain aim better than others and they insist on wanting this game to have an MMORPG style Autoattack/RNG style attack system.

I don’t know why that can’t see there is already RNG in the game. How many times has a shot of your disappeared into the void or been intercepted by invisible force fields?

Must have had a bad dice roll... sigh.

People laughed at MechAssault 1 and 2... had longer TTK and better balance

Edited by Imperius, 27 June 2018 - 08:39 PM.

[SaltiestRaccoon]

Conner Ward, on 27 June 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

I agree, it seems like people can not accept the fact that some players can just plain aim better than others and they insist on wanting this game to have an MMORPG style Autoattack/RNG style attack system.

I feel slightly in the minority with this, but I honestly see no problem with reticle bloom. Many shooters use it and it works fine in those cases. No one would complain that an FPS game takes no skill because your weapon doesn't fire as accurately while jumping or sprinting. Higher damage and lower accuracy is more in fitting with tabletop Battletech anyway. If you want perfect accuracy, you need to stand still for a moment. Meanwhile, moving adversely affects accuracy based on your mech's top speed (A Timberwolf moving 50 takes less accuracy penalty than a Dire Wolf moving 50.) You an also assign accuracy penalties for rapid changes in point of aim, as many shooters do, which further rewards positioning and makes twisting a defensive OPTION rather than something you always do because there's no reason not to.

You may call it MMO-style or auto-attack, but the vast majority of shooters use these mechanics and have for decades, and having movement based penalties and turning based penalties means that there are more decisions to be made in combat. More decisions means more opportunities for better players to outpace the competition.

For instance, I'm fighting another mech, do I slow down to get my weapons on target better? Well if I'm at low health I may choose to go full throttle and juke so I'm harder to hit, despite the fact I will do less focused damage. Do I twist on cooldown? Well if he's at close range and I can spare the accuracy penalty, probably, but at long range I may decide it's a better idea to stay still altogether and get a more accurate shot if I can take the damage for doing so.

In MWO as it is now, none of these are options. It is strictly better to keep moving, it is strictly better to twist. There's no decision-making process involved unless you are bad or want to play poorly intentionally.

Further, you can differentiate pulse lasers and targeting computers in a more interesting way. Want to play a brawling build where you'll be moving and twisting a lot? Pulse lasers for the extra accuracy. Want a long range build that can get pin point shots? Targeting computer.

Edited by SaltiestRaccoon, 27 June 2018 - 08:45 PM.

[Tesunie]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:

Be so kind as to fill me in, apart from...

1. "delayed" convergence, which does not change the issues of high damage alphas since pinpoint damage will still be king.

2. "no convergence" where ST weapons are locked facing forward and is generally stupid to begin with.

3. "dice roll damage assignment", where i'd much rather go back to Battletech

Delayed convergence: This is where your weapons take a moment to line up on their target. This means, instead of being able to quickly snap your reticle over a target and pull the trigger for perfect accuracy (what we have now), you'd have to keep your reticle on target for a moment, otherwise your shots spread out a little at their last converged location (typically someplace really close or far away from your target, either way spreading your weapons fire out to "focus" on that location").

No convergence: Weapons don't converge at all. Everything shoots in a straight line from their location on the mech, and you can only point them and see if it hits.

Dice roll damage assignment: Not even close to convergence being discussed here. This would be more akin to how SSRMs work currently...

Pin Point/Instant Convergence: What we have in the game currently. If your reticle is on it, your weapons are already focused there.



The "Convergence" we are discussing is having your weapons gain a little spread or "cone of fire" depending upon the situation your mech is under.
- Standing still, no penalty at all.
- Walking (moving around/slightly faster than half speed), a very slight random spread of your weapon (from a line to a slight cone).
- Running, a slightly larger cone of fire/spread.
- Jumping, a slightly larger cone of spread, but similar to running.
- Low heat, no penalty.
- Mid heat, a slight increase to the cone of fire.
- High heat, a slightly greater increase to the cone of fire.
Effect would stack, so if you are jumping and running really hot, you'll have a rather large cone of fire, making your accuracy a little more jarred/off reticle. Standing still at low heat, perfect accuracy. Walking at low heat, probably barely even noticeable accuracy change.

With a convergence system like that, we could adjust the cone of fire by number of weapons shooting (call it something on the lines of targeting CPU). Fire too many weapons of a certain type, you'll push for fire control systems and cone of fire would spread (even for lasers).

To represent this your reticle markings would grow or shrink to show the cone you'd be expecting at that moment. Your shot would land somewhere within the reticle markings, you just don't know where exactly. The skill would be to determine the risk of shooting or waiting for the cone to shrink enough for a precise shot.

We could even add in an additional layer onto this by granting arms (maybe even with lower actuators) a benefit of having naturally smaller cones of fire, making placing weapons on "fragile"/low mounted arms more beneficial. As your torso has different reticle markings from your arms, it could be possible to represent it even. This could even be taken an additional step and have specific mech chassis/variants be calibrated to better adjust/tune them as well. Targeting computers could improve this, instead of their current buffs they do in the game.

[A Headless Chicken]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

The "Convergence" we are discussing is having your weapons gain a little spread or "cone of fire" depending upon the situation your mech is under.
- Standing still, no penalty at all.
- Walking (moving around/slightly faster than half speed), a very slight random spread of your weapon (from a line to a slight cone).
- Running, a slightly larger cone of fire/spread.
- Jumping, a slightly larger cone of spread, but similar to running.
- Low heat, no penalty.
- Mid heat, a slight increase to the cone of fire.
- High heat, a slightly greater increase to the cone of fire.

So basically, since 94 alpha passive corner peeks are a thing, I pop out, alpha you with 94 pinpoint with minimal bloom and retreat.

Solves everything.

RIP dakka midrange which need to move and eventually run hot, RIP brawlers who do the same and already suffer from bad spread, and movement intensive mechs. Do you think these things through before posting? I really need to know. You're only reinforcing a more passive, high alpha oriented playstyle.

EDIT: to remove wall of text.

Edited by A Headless Chicken, 27 June 2018 - 08:45 PM.

[Tesunie]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

ｃｏｎｖｅｒｇｅｎｃｅ

Convergence is just meaning your weapons going into alignment for accuracy (in relation to this game). How your weapons might gain convergence is the question, and something that could use to be addressed.

Believe it or not, we once had delayed convergence. It was nice, until LAG shields kicked in and you had to lead a mech with your lasers to hit them. AKA: You shot ahead of your target and hit "thin air" if you wanted to actually hit your target...

[Imperius]

Why are there people still asking for convergence to be removed when Battetech is out?

[A Headless Chicken]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

Convergence is just meaning your weapons going into alignment for accuracy (in relation to this game). How your weapons might gain convergence is the question, and something that could use to be addressed.

Believe it or not, we once had delayed convergence. It was nice, until LAG shields kicked in and you had to lead a mech with your lasers to hit them. AKA: You shot ahead of your target and hit "thin air" if you wanted to actually hit your target...

Really, just read the post above this. You need to play this game a little more to understand that you are just going to perpetuate the very thing you want to remove.

EDIT: I just realized this good old 'delayed' convergence would result in salted cries of "LIGHTS OP, POPTARTS OP" in the long run as well, so nah, still a buzzword which will not improve the game.

Edited by A Headless Chicken, 27 June 2018 - 08:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

A Headless Chicken, on 27 June 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

So basically, since 94 alpha passive corner peeks are a thing, I pop out, alpha you with 94 pinpoint with minimal bloom and retreat.

Solves everything.

RIP dakka midrange which need to move and eventually run hot, RIP brawlers who do the same and already suffer from bad spread, and movement intensive mechs. Do you think these things through before posting? I really need to know.

EDIT: to remove wall of text.

You... don't understand this at all. Do you...

Depending upon HOW IT IS DONE... maybe. There are many potential avenues to pursue this.

The main suggestion I posted here it would take your 94 alpha, and when you shoot, only some of your weapons would be accurate enough to hit your target (in multiple places) as you exceeded your fire control CPU by shooting all your weapons at once, while walking.

As a brawler, you probably would be too close for your reticle bloom/cone of fire to make much of a difference. It may spread to another component of your target, but you probably wouldn't miss with much.

Some weapons found needing to be "run and gun" (such as AC2s) probably would be minimally influenced by CPU drawing, and the potentially small amount of inaccuracy created by moving and heat might be negligible, depending upon what it's settings are placed at.



I guess I want to ask... Have you actually read any of the Battletech novels?
I ask this as many of us who support this game I suspect are here for much the same reasons I am... I basically want to "play" the novels (to some extent). Of course, not everything will transfer over perfectly, but one strong point in the novels was to hold your reticle over your target until it turned gold with a lock, which let you know your weapons are on target. That means all your equipped weapons, not just missile based ones. Even then, your weapons might still miss...

I also noticed that your account isn't as old as mine. So, I'll also ask, as I don't recall, where you here when delayed convergence was in the game? I believe we had switched to HSR before you had joined, so you don't recall those days of the game, which would explain your lack of understand about what many of us are talking about.

[Imperius]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

You... don't understand this at all. Do you...

Depending upon HOW IT IS DONE... maybe. There are many potential avenues to pursue this.

The main suggestion I posted here it would take your 94 alpha, and when you shoot, only some of your weapons would be accurate enough to hit your target (in multiple places) as you exceeded your fire control CPU by shooting all your weapons at once, while walking.

As a brawler, you probably would be too close for your reticle bloom/cone of fire to make much of a difference. It may spread to another component of your target, but you probably wouldn't miss with much.

Some weapons found needing to be &quot;run and gun&quot; (such as AC2s) probably would be minimally influenced by CPU drawing, and the potentially small amount of inaccuracy created by moving and heat might be negligible, depending upon what it's settings are placed at.



I guess I want to ask... Have you actually read any of the Battletech novels?
I ask this as many of us who support this game I suspect are here for much the same reasons I am... I basically want to &quot;play&quot; the novels (to some extent). Of course, not everything will transfer over perfectly, but one strong point in the novels was to hold your reticle over your target until it turned gold with a lock, which let you know your weapons are on target. That means all your equipped weapons, not just missile based ones. Even then, your weapons might still miss...

I also noticed that your account isn't as old as mine. So, I'll also ask, as I don't recall, where you here when delayed convergence was in the game? I believe we had switched to HSR before you had joined, so you don't recall those days of the game, which would explain your lack of understand about what many of us are talking about.

You don’t understand.

This is a FPS video game inspired by battletech.

Not a book.
Not a board game
Not a pen and paper game
Not a simulator
Not a source of lore

Brb I’m going to the catalyst gamelabs forums and demand they let me draw on the opponents paper where I was going to shoot him. We need to remove the dice from that game.

Edited by Imperius, 27 June 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[A Headless Chicken]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

Depending upon HOW IT IS DONE... maybe. There are many potential avenues to pursue this.

Don't play the account age with me - beta player, but account creation doesn't show because I changed my name.

I could not care less about Battletech in a game branded as a shooter which borrows elements from the franchise. If you really need to relate both, I'll just say pilots in the novels can also land clean shots through skill.

I do not agree with your idea for convergence as there is no impetus to play builds which suffer from reticle bloom from heat or movement. Why would I bring sustained fire U/AC mechs which inevitably run hot? Why would I run AC/2 builds which already suffer from shot leading at range? I would I bring bigger AC builds fully knowing that movement and heat will mess with leading the target and make me miss? Why would I bring brawlers with already bad spread made worse by not being able to even land critical shots when I need to CT something out ASAP (yes, killing quick and efficient is a very big issue for a brawler)? I would just bring 2 Gauss Rifles and an assortment of lasers and shoot stuff from a corner.

If your bloom was so small that all of the above is not an issue, why have it in the first place? Explain how bloom will make every weapon in the game comparable with Gauss Vomit, and I'll hopefully understand.

[frumpylumps]

Good on PGI for having the balls to go through with unpopular yet necessary changes.

F all the crybabies.

[Imperius]

frumpylumps, on 27 June 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Good on PGI for having the balls to go through with unpopular yet necessary changes.

F all the crybabies.

Yet we didn’t get the nessary change of going back to 8v8 to increase MWO performance and other issues like tightening of match making. Weird

[SilentFenris]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

The "Convergence" we are discussing is having your weapons gain a little spread or "cone of fire" depending upon the situation your mech is under.
- Standing still, no penalty at all.
- Walking (moving around/slightly faster than half speed), a very slight random spread of your weapon (from a line to a slight cone).
- Running, a slightly larger cone of fire/spread.
- Jumping, a slightly larger cone of spread, but similar to running.
- Low heat, no penalty.
- Mid heat, a slight increase to the cone of fire.
- High heat, a slightly greater increase to the cone of fire.
Effect would stack, so if you are jumping and running really hot, you'll have a rather large cone of fire, making your accuracy a little more jarred/off reticle. Standing still at low heat, perfect accuracy. Walking at low heat, probably barely even noticeable accuracy change.

With a convergence system like that, we could adjust the cone of fire by number of weapons shooting (call it something on the lines of targeting CPU). Fire too many weapons of a certain type, you'll push for fire control systems and cone of fire would spread (even for lasers).

To represent this your reticle markings would grow or shrink to show the cone you'd be expecting at that moment. Your shot would land somewhere within the reticle markings, you just don't know where exactly. The skill would be to determine the risk of shooting or waiting for the cone to shrink enough for a precise shot.

No.

Never implement this idea in MWO. I've played World of Warships and I hate "Cone of Fire".

Edited by SilentFenris, 27 June 2018 - 09:23 PM.

[Mystere]

SilentFenris, on 27 June 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

No.

Never implement this idea in MWO. I've played World of Warships and I hate "Cone of Fire".

Sigh!

Convergence <> "Cone of Fire".

People really need to understand the difference.