657 replies to this topic

[H E A V Y G A U S S]

Kill the Mechlab and go for Stock-Mode Only
in QP / FP and S7

--> problem solved

[Stinger554]

Navid A1, on 26 June 2018 - 11:09 AM, said:

this change removes 1xGauss + lasers out of the picture... somthing that was not a problem to begin with.

How so? Any laser(or even PPC) combo with Gauss just means you tag them into one button or you fire lasers then gauss just like everything else...

Just for the record here I'm against adding recoil to the gauss because it practically does nothing.

[Ghost Paladin117]

There better be "recoil" on both sides or this is just a joke.

[Stinger554]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2018 - 11:04 AM, said:

im hoping it will be 8v8, but we will need numbers to get that kinda data,
ill be on playing, and i hope to see everyone else whos in here on the PTS as well,

One can hope I suppose, but I've long given up hope in regards to PGI.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ghost Paladin117, on 26 June 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

There better be "recoil" on both sides or this is just a joke.

if its put in place to balance C-Gauss being suppirior to IS-Gauss,
then how would giving both Factions Gauss this help to balance them,
-
in essence this Change to C-Gauss is allot like the Damage Splash of C-ERPPC,
will it break C-Gauss Builds? no, will it be abit annoying? perhaps, will things change? slightly,
but all in all i think it will be for the better,

[Bageldrone]

just remove headshots. they add very little to the game anyways

[Andi Nagasia]

personally im seeing,

C-Gauss wont change much, perhaps a slight 1/4 sec delay between lasers and Gauss but nothing major,
it will be at most just abit distracting, and for hitting at +600m abit harder, but sub 400m i dont see much change,

i think most clan lasers will lose 1 damage, and likely with that some heat and cooldown respectively,
which will be interesting to test, likely i see builds only losing at most 6-8 damage, but still workable,


having IS-SL/ERSL @3.25damage, and C-ERSL @4damage will be interesting to test,
but with this i can see a future buff to both perhaps -25% cooldown from all Small Class Lasers,

[The Mysterious Fox]

yes, continue to NERF clans into the dirt again and again. i'll present my ****** to the team.

there needs an agility buff across all mechs and classes and then remove all those over quirked armour stats. it'll be more fun and actually reward high skill play like torso twisting and hitbox management. but too bad, looks like we'll just get pelletguntankwarrior online again

[Rkshz]

PGI CAN YOU PLS STOP NERFS?

[Nathan White]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

having IS-SL/ERSL @3.25damage, and C-ERSL @4damage will be interesting to test,
but with this i can see a future buff to both perhaps -25% cooldown from all Small Class Lasers,

Uninstall game pls. And stop giving to PGI stupid ideas.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Now I've not seen any improvement for overall balance NOR for longer TTK from the "stop nerf, buff this..." posts yet.
And nobody seems to understand that this is the same as this:
1. 80% of the weapons are below the top 20%, so you nerf the top 20% down to the same level as the rest
2. 80% of the weapons are below the top 20%, so you buff the 80% to get as strong as the top 20%
The only difference is power creep on nr2!

First of all: Most of us don't want TTK increased by nerfing how many weapons you can fire at a time because it won't increase TTK.
and if you're thinking "But why won't nerfing how many weapons fired at once by one mech increase TTK? That sounds counter intuitive"
Because people will still die horribly when they wander into 12 mechs, be shot at by 3 or more mechs, get shot in the back, or generally die horribly any way someone is supposed to be killed in this team-oriented game. All nerfing specific weapon types will do is cause people to shift to something they didn't want to use and just do lots of damage with that instead. For instance, see World Champions like [naming specific people against TOS so I won't] bringing LRM boats and doing more damage than they would using their old meta.

Second: Why do you want higher TTK? it just means that:

• If you're good you can't carry since you can't drop enemy mechs without also taking damage (since you have to chain-fire instead of alpha) or you just have to be that guy who runs around for 8 minutes to clutch a game when the team is dead
  
• If you're OK you will shoot with the team and nothing will change except that you deal damage slower
  
• If you're bad it means your mech will be locked in the match once you die early and have to wait even longer to get it back.

What do you really want increased TTK for? If healing over time was a thing it would make a difference. Your armor never comes back, so what does increasing TTK do other than make games and search ques longer for everyone?

[Sucy Manbavaran]

Next time we'll get "ONLY CHAIN FIRE FOR CLAM" ?
if clan mech must be 5/6 sec facetanking, it will be fun ?

... poor game

[Toothless]

Dont worry guys, Russ assured us that the thing they do best is listen to the community, as evidenced here.

[Kaoba]

"Soo we took your feedback throw it to the garbage can, and we are gonna do whatever we want".

Edited by WayTooSexy, 26 June 2018 - 01:12 PM.

[Stinger554]

RjBass3, on 26 June 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

This ^^^

Nerfs have proven in multiple games to be bad for business. While the linked video has been shown before, I really think Chris, Paul and Russ need to take a look at it if they have not already. But basically what it is saying, when you buff, the fun comes back, players feel like they are getting a bonus etc.. When you nerf, it feels like the fun is being taken away.

Instead of nerfing clans to come into line with IS, buff IS to bring it in line with the clans.

Counterpoints Buffing everything up isn't always the answer. Buffing everything causes issues.

https://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw

https://youtu.be/M3b3hDvRjJA

[Lawrence Elsa]

H E A V Y G A U S S, on 26 June 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

Kill the Mechlab and go for Stock-Mode Only
in QP / FP and S7

--> problem solved

Guess my Vindicator with an LRM 5, 1 small, 1 medium and a PPC will finally be balanced against a stock Arctic Wolf

[SmokedJag]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

First off I would like to thank everyone who has so far provided feedback in the "Addressing The Current High Alpha Damage Meta" thread. We have been reviewing the feedback and have decided that we will be moving forward with a series of Public Test Server sessions to test some of the various options presented before deciding on what will be implemented. We want to stress up front that none of these current changes are set in stone, which is precisely why we are opening them up to for public testing.

To reiterate what Paul said in his "Future Balance Discussions and Planning" thread, the overall solution that we are looking to implement is one that directly addresses the damage discrepancy between the effective alpha damage cap of 94 damage on the Clan side compared to the 60-65 damage that the Inner Sphere typically caps out at. With the intent of narrowing this discrepancy down into a state that is not so lopsided towards one faction. This does not mean that the goal is to see this cap be equal on both sides, but that the gulf that currently exists between the average Clan Alpha centric build and Inner Sphere Alpha centric build should not be as vast as it is currently in-game.

For the opening PTS, we will be testing the options previously presented to the players that garnered the most amount of direct support in the feedback thread based on the approach that the majority of players who commented on preferred:

• Providing a Clan Gauss Rifle Recoil effect.
  
• Reducing the damage on Clan lasers to have closer parity to the IS lasers.

Again, this does not mean that these changes are set in stone. We are taking the feedback that we have received to heart, and will be conducting internal tests on other options found internally and includes numbers from the community balance document that still addresses our primary goal of bringing the alpha capabilities between the factions closer together. We anticipate that we will be running a second PTS at an undetermined date to go over more options and alternative solutions that may or may not involve any of the changes listed in the previous "options" post. This first PTS will be targeted at testing the options that we have readily available at the moment. While future PTS' will be reserved for other things that we may wish to investigate at a future time.

Before we close this out, there is one bit of feedback that has been brought up in the thread that that we wanted to address. The feedback that if these changes where to go into effect, a reduction in overall damage output on the clan side, the IS side with generous defensive quirks would be too much HP to overcome in standard engagement situations. This is something that we acknowledge may be a point that needs looking into with the changes to Clan weapons. We will be keeping a very close eye on through the initial PTS testing and may introduce changes that address this point in future testing depending on the results we find from this upcoming initial PTS.

We would like to thank all of those that have provided feedback on this matter. Feel free to continue this discussion in the previous thread, as we are continuing to monitor feedback for investigations into a future PTS.

PTS I Change list:

• Clan Gauss Rifle
  
  • Small Recoil added
• Clan Lasers
  
  • Damage Reduced
    
  • Other attributes such as Heat, Cooldown, Laser Duration may be edited to account for the reduction in damage.

I repeat my point from the last thread that this is a lot of (mostly ineffective) effort to nerf the Desthstrike and I guess the Blood Asp and MC-MkII - 1. Carrying two Gauss is too much gun for most Clan heavies and the other Clan assaults either aren't set up for it or aren't used that way or don't need nerfs (Dire Whale).

Adding recoil to Gauss does nothing to control Gauss vomit. People will just do what many do anyway and move it to the end of the laser beams. No real change in exposure or damage dealt.

Nerfing lasers without compensation just hurts all Clan 'Mechs that are laser based. It doesn't nerf the ones built around Gauss.

[Guts3062AD]

I'd like it if efforts were made to make more weapon systems viable on clan mechs. Gauss is the only clan ballistic that is workable, even with its low health, and that just seems like a shame. If high alpha laser builds are over performing its fine to reduce their damage a little bit to make them less unbalanced, but on the same note I think people are using the high alpha laser builds because it feels like the only effective loadout on clan mechs. The best solution, i think, would be to nerf clan heavy laser damage only a little bit and buff clan ballistics to encourage people to try different builds instead of leaning on heavy lasers.

It's more fun for all of us to have a wider range of good weapons instead of having one or two weapon systems that perform very well but the rest really dont.

[Max Von Lakes]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 June 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

PTS I Change list:

• Clan Gauss Rifle
  
  • Small Recoil added
• Clan Lasers
  
  • Damage Reduced
    
  • Other attributes such as Heat, Cooldown, Laser Duration may be edited to account for the reduction in damage.

Hmm...
1) Gauss recoil is fair enough. What's not fair is that's it only the Clan Gauss receiving it; put recoil on all the gauss rifles, then fine. I don't see a reason why the IS gauss should not have recoil, when the heavy gauss and Clan gauss do. Light gauss...hmm...given the range the projectile can travel, it seems sensible to give it some notion of recoil i suppose.
BTW, if he have recoil effects across the board.... do we need to retain the charge mechanic?

Anyway, in the interest of parity... shouldn't all ballistics (possibly except MG's) have recoil of some degree?
*I can almost hear the 2xUAC/5 + 2xUAC/10" club calling for my blood*

Laser changes nerfs make me nervous, especially with the sentence "to have a closer parity with the IS lasers" in your text.
I'm thinking clan lasers will end up redundant.
can we have some figures for these changes?

Personally, I don't think the problem is gauss rifles and/or lasers, the problem (again, this is only my opinion) is the learning curve the newer players are subjected too.

*deep breath*

Once upon a time, when MWO was in beta, we played as 8v8. the maps were smaller, the weapons were less diverse, and more often than not, the gameplay was relatively short ranged, fast, and brutal. This gameplay had a steep learning curve, but, learn you did - it forced a player to think!
"since I died so easily last time, what did I do wrong?" so the player starts to learn that you can actually move AND shoot at the same time, you can actually USE the terrain as cover and peek/poke from it, torso twist doesn't just facilitate aiming, you can actually roll damage across your armour!

Between the various iterations of LURMageddon we experienced in them days (the nightmares will never fade), LRM's were primarily used as an area denial tool (no strikes back then), which they did fairly well;
"don't stand in the open under the rain, and bit's don't fall off your mech" - another simple lesson learned.

Somewhere along the way (I think I was too drunk (which was waaaayyy too often a few years ago) to notice at the time), but the "new player experience" changed from the learning curve cliff of Beta, into something more gentle where lock on weaponry was the "go to", because it 'put numbers on the board', and was/is easy.

'Numbers on the board' (damage) is an arbitrary notion at the best of times, and it is a dangerous thing to use as a metric for (any)ones performance.

The result of leaning on the crutch that is lock on weapons, coupled with the absence of having to learn to drive the mech effectively, means that the majority of the newer generations of MWO players will stand still to get a lock (they didn't learn to move and shoot), and stare at you to get said lock (they didn't learn to twist).
Now..anyone who can aim (particularly the veterans), that sees a mech standing still starting at them, WILL aim for the head.

Thus, a cocksure LURMboat ('cos I get 1250 damage a game!) standing in the open dies to dual gauss through the head, and complains about gauss being OP...and Gauss gets nerfed.

And here we are, all caught up.

*exhales*

So, for me, without knowing what the background of what the player who died and complained was (or wasn't) doing, it's impossible to say if something is, or isn't OP.

In the example I gave above, it's kinda like blaming a train for running you over whilst you were having a picnic on the tracks... and then banning the train

tl:dr, dig into the problem a bit more, before you offer up a solution. If learning to twist, dodge, use terrain, hell - even MOVING once in a while, was encouraged, most of these problems complaints would disappear in short order.

[Navid A1]

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Yes it is possible

Tell me, what is wrong with GH of Large+Med lasers (or even using Energy Draw)?
We already have SRMs max at 4x and MRMs max at 2x30 and sharing the GH.
We already have Gauss+PPC sharing GH maxing at 2x.
We already have Small+Med lasers sharing a GH group to prevent a 6+6 (or whatever) combo.
So why not add Large+Med Lasers which is the only outlier combo currently?

What are you even on about? Who is talking about GH?
What?!!

GH for Larges and meds... so 1 LL + 2 Meds gives you ghost heat?
GH for Gauss + PPC was not a good move at all. It created the current laser vomit problem.

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

I believe that people QQing about nerfs and demanding buffs are just power hungry.
This is a PVP game where the targets get frustrated if they get one-shot without even having a chance to react, not a PVE game with AI bots to pulverize in seconds.

If you want to play CS, COD, Unreal Tournament, or Quake to oneshot people, please don't try to get a Mechwarrior game to do the same!
I want to have long battles with tons of fire, twisting and manouvering... something I can currently only get with stock Mediums, because everything else is too strong. There you have it, that's my personal goal.

I believe that people who are for more nerfs think that bringing down ok weapon systems makes them able to compete and have fun. I believe they are wrong... as 6 years of constant nerfs have proved that they are wrong.

Also... if you are getting one-shot with the current state of the game... the problem is YOU!
Seriously?!
one-shot?!
you sure you are playing MWO?

You want to be able to face-tank a firing line in your LRM atlas and live for more than 5 seconds?
The problem of this game is that kind of mentality.
No amount of nerfs can make you survive a face-tanking encounter... NOTHING can save you.

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Now I've not seen any improvement for overall balance NOR for longer TTK from the "stop nerf, buff this..." posts yet.
And nobody seems to understand that this is the same as this:
1. 80% of the weapons are below the top 20%, so you nerf the top 20% down to the same level as the rest
2. 80% of the weapons are below the top 20%, so you buff the 80% to get as strong as the top 20%
The only difference is power creep on nr2!

So my suggestion is trying to focus on Nr1, same as the overall direction of Chris/Paul, even if that means most people dislike the direction (because Nerfs are bad, yo).

Guess what... those 80% of weapons down there are the ones that were nerf'd to that place... If you nerf the top 20% to that level, then you have to repeat the nerfs to weapons that will become the new 20%... and on and on and on it goes... until the likes of you gonna ask for jelly sticks because you are still getting one-shot.