657 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I really really really like the idea of Clan Laser damage reduction. So far it always seemed that Clan Lasers is the problem, precisely because it's just a lot easier to pack in a little clan mech, and people with just good heat management can get away with it.

That being said, clans can only be nerfed for so many times. So far, the high alpha usually stems from the lasers more than the Gauss, and if we eliminate the gauss we still get high alpha from lasers.

Having this recoil for the gauss just seems outright silly.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 June 2018 - 08:37 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

MischiefSC, on 26 June 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

There's a big difference between mechs with an 80+ alpha at 300m and an 80+alpha at 800m. I get the logic behind the idea.

You mean, 500m, not 800m.

800m you are doing around 50pts. Not 80pt+.

[Tesunie]

justcallme A S H, on 26 June 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

These proposed changes are just outright silly and should never have even gone to a PTS.

Look how many people are already annoyed at it, that is the key point from all of this.

I think clan ERMLs (and maybe HLL) are the only lasers that could use it's damage reduced (by a hair). As far as C Gauss, never really saw it as an issue, and I don't think the recoil is going to be good at all.

So I'm not disagreeing with some people here. All I'm saying is, I'm willing to give it a try at least and provide as unbiased feedback as I can about it. If I play it and don't like it, I'll say so and explain why.

I also don't think all of the current proposed changes will be good. I just think it's wise to try it on a PTS and see that it's no good. Maybe we might be surprised. Maybe we are right. Who knows at this point. Lets just give it a try.

Then, PGI should (and I do hope they honestly do) provide other PTS sessions with more suggested changes.

I agree that I'd love to see a lot of the suggestions I saw in the other mirror thread of this one be tested. There were a lot of good ideas in there (and a lot of bad ones too from my perspective). I'd be disappointed if PGI only tried this one idea and then left it at that...

[El Bandito]

Clan laser nerf is long overdue. Just four CERMLs have 28 damage and costs mere 4 tons, while three IS Large lasers deal 27 damage and costs 15 tons. HLL also deals too much damage for mere four tons of weight.

Clan Gauss should also be balanced against IS Gauss as it has the same damage and range while costing three full tons less than IS version. Not to mention Clans have ST death proof XL engine + FREE CASE in all parts of the mech. Meanwhile, getting ST popped means certain death for IS Warhammers. IS base tech sucks, something PGI should have balanced before weapons. If no nerfs to Clan Gauss, at least buff IS Gauss meaningfully!

As for IS, 50 PPFLD from dual HGR is too overbearing, especially in FP. I'd suggest to nerf it too. I have one shot too many Clan mechs just by aiming at their cockpits. My head shot achievement went from 20 pre-HGR, to over 100 post HGR. That's too easy.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 June 2018 - 08:42 PM.

[A Headless Chicken]

Tesunie, on 26 June 2018 - 08:21 PM, said:

- LRM velocity buffed.
- IS mechs got quirks (to counter Clans, not an individual chassis problem against IS).
- PPCs got a velocity buff (shortly after gaining GH with Gauss I believe).

LRM velocity -a low-skill weapon- was buffed which was completely redundant and a nonissue with the game to begin with. It just made people more intent on bringing LRMs and insist they were contributing to the game. Cue a month or two of LRMageddon where people enjoyed lobbing metal at each other from across the map and static, boring gameplay.

IS mechs got 'quirked' - you mean armor reassignment? The one where now I can easily disarm Jenners and Stalkers by shooting at the arms since armor went from there to the CT? That incident was another a misguided nerf when the Mechs should have been outright buffed.

IS ERPPCs got a velocity buff to go hand in hand with PPFLD nerf but are still to toasty to be effective - meanwhile Clan ERPPC now has a 5s cooldown, IS PPC is still untouched and underwhelming, and Snubby is still too hot for its role.

Add this and a few piecemeal buffs (the only one which was welcome was the slight TBR mobility buff) that look good on paper but do not change anything in the game and of course, it's all fine - some irrelevant things got buffed right?

Not the things which actually need it though.

Edited by A Headless Chicken, 26 June 2018 - 08:49 PM.

[Smutty]

Tesunie, on 26 June 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Then, PGI should (and I do hope they honestly do) provide other PTS sessions with more suggested changes.

For the love of God please PGI do this

'cept like, y'know, make the PTS actually have some substance so people won't mind putting off their actual games

[dario03]

I don't really think clan lasers are all that great right now. A lot of what lets them work good in regular play is lower coordination of teams in solo and small groups games. Peak, shoot, repeat works because the teams don't always rush each other or focus fire that good which gives you plenty of time to fire. In comp though, teams can rush and focus so the hot mechs just don't have the time to put out the damage. I don't recall seeing a ton of clan laser boats in the last mrbc.

With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a change to the lasers. But not just a nerf. A simple damage decrease, but with a cooldown buff so that your dps is about the same but your alpha is lower should work. You will have to peak more often to get the same amount of damage out. Would also need to adjust the hp quirks on some mechs too though.

Clan Gauss should probably just get a cooldown or ammo nerf, or just buff those on the IS Gauss.

[A Headless Chicken]

dario03, on 26 June 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

I don't really think clan lasers are all that great right now. A lot of what lets them work good in regular play is lower coordination of teams in solo and small groups games. Peak, shoot, repeat works because the teams don't always rush each other or focus fire that good which gives you plenty of time to fire. In comp though, teams can rush and focus so the hot mechs just don't have the time to put out the damage. I don't recall seeing a ton of clan laser boats in the last mrbc.

With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a change to the lasers. But not just a nerf. A simple damage decrease, but with a cooldown buff so that your dps is about the same but your alpha is lower should work. You will have to peak more often to get the same amount of damage out. Would also need to adjust the hp quirks on some mechs too though.

Clan Gauss should probably just get a cooldown or ammo nerf, or just buff those on the IS Gauss.

I'd say minute tweaks to Clan lasers. I'm fine with how they are now because if both sides have similar facetime and damage output, it's obvious that the 'Mech with more quirks would win (and chances are its from the IS side). You can reduce their damage by a point at most, or up the heat, but nothing too drastic, especially since now we're talking weapons in complete isolation from every other factor in the game.

[Y E O N N E]

dario03, on 26 June 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

With that said I wouldn't be opposed to a change to the lasers. But not just a nerf. A simple damage decrease, but with a cooldown buff so that your dps is about the same but your alpha is lower should work. You will have to peak more often to get the same amount of damage out. Would also need to adjust the hp quirks on some mechs too though.

The thing is, that's supposed to be the way IS lasers play. But PGI keeps it such that the DPS and heat on the IS ER MedLas is uncompetitive with the Clan version. So the Clan laser boat currently has slightly better range, much better cooling, higher alpha, and higher DPS. The IS laser boat has better duration...but the damage on the Clan ones is so high that this doesn't factor in much except in ERLL trades and on Lights.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 26 June 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

As for IS, 50 PPFLD from dual HGR is too overbearing, especially in FP. I'd suggest to nerf it too. I have one shot too many Clan mechs just by aiming at their cockpits. My head shot achievement went from 20 pre-HGR, to over 100 post HGR. That's too easy.

There is no way to tone it down other than restricting users to firing one at a time. Lowering it to as far as even 17 won't solve the head-shot "problem" as long as you can still fire two together, and anything lower than 22 would make it not an HGauss at all.

Frankly, it really just sounds like too many people are face-staring you.

[dario03]

A Headless Chicken, on 26 June 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

I'd say minute tweaks to Clan lasers. I'm fine with how they are now because if both sides have similar facetime and damage output, it's obvious that the 'Mech with more quirks would win (and chances are its from the IS side). You can reduce their damage by a point at most, or up the heat, but nothing too drastic, especially since now we're talking weapons in complete isolation from every other factor in the game.

Cerml is the one that stands out to me the most. I don't think it should have ever been 7dmg. I still can't believe that the big balance patch awhile back dropped cspl by 2dmg but didn't touch cerml damage.

Edited by dario03, 26 June 2018 - 09:20 PM.

[poltergoost]

This has got to be one of the most brainless ideas yet by PGI.

There is a whole roster of Clan mechs that rely on lasers and are NOT overpowered. My poor Jenner IIC-A for example, my favourite mech when I started playing, nerfed so many times I've lost count. It is now utterly useless, and about to be nerfed AGAIN!!

So all these useless or non-meta Clan laser mechs are going to be nerfbatted into the ground because a few chassis were causing problems. Genius!

[Manicus]

Dear PGI, please stop shoehorning Clans into... wait, what are we supposed to play if you nerf lasers now? There's nothing left.

Should I abandon my clan mechs and jump to IS? Cos it looks like that's what you're trying to do.

The big alpha you're talking about is a feature of certain builds, NOT the entire class of lasers.

[Yondu Udonta]

"We feel that due to 3 Clan mechs (MCII-DS, DWF, BAS) being able to put out 94 alpha we should blanket nerf Clan lasers/gauss such that every Clan mech will be ******* on just because of a few outliers."

I have a suggestion for you PGI to be able to increase TTK and not resorting to nerfs again to a tech side that has been eating **** for months on end.

BUFF PLAYER SKILL.

Teach all the potatoes that they should not be face tanking enemies whenever they are not required to. Teach them to keep moving on their light mechs. Teach them how to deadside shield. Teach them how to alter their hitboxes by pumping their jumpjets. Teach them how to torso twist to spread the damage to various components so that they won't complain that they got crit CTed by one alpha. Teach them not to expose their mech in open terrain as if they are taking a stroll in the park. Teach them to be unpredictable in movement, to not run/walk in a straight line.

If you still decide not to heed the above advice, at least propose the reduction/removal of durability quirks on IS mechs to go along with the nerf such that both tech sides are relatively balanced if the changes come along (I am not ok at all with these proposed changes, I'm just suggesting this because PGI has failed to listen to its dedicated player base time and time again).

And please, stop appealing to the lowest common denominator. This is trend that I have noticed recently, nerfing SMN poptarts by increasing C-ERPPC cooldowns because the potatoes cannot anticipate or fire at them. Buffing LRM velocity because potatoes just like to be a LRM turret and fire at enemies while behind terrain standing still. And now you are nerfing lasers because the average MWO pilot reaction time is significantly more than the average human's and are unable to torso twist to spread the damage. Look at what all the clan degenerates are running in Faction Play these days. Nothing but lurms. That's how dead Clan tech is, that they have to resort to what has been seen for years as the **** weapon available for skilled pilots.

You guys in PGI either need to start putting in more game time in and learn how unbalanced the tech sides are or hire someone highly skilled from the community to do balancing. Because I'm damn sure none of the staff involved in balancing can claim that they are a tier 0 (because even tier 1 pilots suck). Any of you guys up to show your percentile on Jarl's?

[LordNothing]

pgi posts thread acknowleging problem but posts solutions that are lolwatworthy at best. people tell them this over the course of several days, then pgi comes back saying they are going to do the same thing they had previously suggested dispite all the 'bad idea' posts in that thread, saying that was what the community "wanted". yep, business as usual.

or they could do something that makes me want to buy a mechpack. hint, its not make a mechpack.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 June 2018 - 10:41 PM.

[Ritter ohne Furcht und Tadel]

Now PGI is completely ridiculous !! They ban players who only tell the truth, just because they do not want to hear ..... That's so poor so poor!


Sure, that's easier than wondering if people may not be right!

Edited by Ritter ohne Furcht und Tadel, 26 June 2018 - 11:01 PM.

[Snowhawk]

poltergoost, on 26 June 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

This has got to be one of the most brainless ideas yet by PGI.

There is a whole roster of Clan mechs that rely on lasers and are NOT overpowered. My poor Jenner IIC-A for example, my favourite mech when I started playing, nerfed so many times I've lost count. It is now utterly useless, and about to be nerfed AGAIN!!

So all these useless or non-meta Clan laser mechs are going to be nerfbatted into the ground because a few chassis were causing problems. Genius!

Yes, that's it. And once again pgi is overnerving the weapons.
I am for a targeted Treatment of the Problem.
Just add ghostheat for 2 clan gauss rifles with 6 med lasers. And of Course ghost heat for the 2 heavy large lasers (or 2 large lasers/2 large pulse lasers) with 6 med lasers. This is a simple fix and then pgi has time for further steps.

[ebea51]

Fluff and Rubbish.

Always kicking around half-baked fixes, lets buff this, lets equalize that, lets jiggle whatever... and nothing notably improves.

Only one system that has been kicked around that makes any sense is THE CAPACITOR SYSTEM. The ONLY way to reduce clan mechs from having insane alphas is to physically LIMIT their ability to fire all their mounted weapons at the same time.

You can keep the distinction between clan and IS tech, that's necessary to give the two sides a distinct flavor... but clan mech capacitors CANT fire as many weapons at the same time but recharge slightly faster, IS mechs CAN fire as many weapons as they currently can now, but their cap recharges slightly slower.

Its the only way to prevent min-maxing or boating... its to remove the ability to fire ALL your mounted weapons at the same time - THE CAPACITOR SYSTEM does that.

God knows... it also would add another sorely needed gameplay mechanic to spice the game up...

Edited by ebea51, 26 June 2018 - 11:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

the problem isnt even clan lasers. if pgi would release is omnis that can stack max laser points or is battlemechs that have more than 9 laser hardpoints things would be better. things would be better if ghost heat was less arbitrary, things would be better if huge alphas would have major drawbacks.

the problem is most definately not gauss rifles. i like recoil effects, i think id rather see those on all ballistics rather than ghost heat on any ballistics. but this isnt going to do anything for the alpha problem. most viable alpha you can do with ballistics is about 60, but thats debatable. people will just fire the lasers first. 30 damage for 24+ammo tons. thats not the problem. i can do that with 6t of lasers. and is can also do some terrible things with mrms and hgauss, i dont see anyone complaining about those. see algorithm driven ghost heat for solutions to all high alpha problems. gh is too damn arbitrary! you cant do a viable cspl build anymore but you can fire 60+ with moderate range just fine.

[lazorbeamz]

I d like to have a patch sooner. It takes so much time.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 26 June 2018 - 11:31 PM.