127 replies to this topic

[Remover of Obstacles]

https://mwomercs.com...s-announcement/

Just in case you missed Russ's tweet.

[FupDup]

TL;DR: Clan lasers are getting lower damage (with other attributes maybe adjusted to compensate) and Clan Gauss is getting a recoil effect like the HGR.

For the Clan lasers I support the general direction but I need to know the exact numbers PGI is going with (the little details matter a lot) but for the CGR I'm not really feeling it. Maybe if they buffed the CGR health at the same time* then we could see the CGR get used on more than just a few special chassis (because right now its super fragility makes it a liability on many robots).

*IS Gauss Rifles should also get more health

[AEgg]

Every time I see balance suggestions/ideas/whatever like this, I'm disappointed. Practically every change is making clan and IS closer to one another instead of further apart. Why not increase laser duration instead of reducing damage? Why not make the IS Gauss less likely to explode, or even not explode at all? Why are we always trying to make the tech bases the same?

[BrunoSSace]

Its sad really, I never saw Clan Lasers as the problem, its, I dont know. The IS Xl engine not surving a torso loss or maybe how Clans can squeeze in so many more heatsinks then we can. Id leave the game the way it is atm. Why change something thats been a problem for like forever?

[FupDup]

AEgg, on 26 June 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

Every time I see balance suggestions/ideas/whatever like this, I'm disappointed. Practically every change is making clan and IS closer to one another instead of further apart. Why not increase laser duration instead of reducing damage? Why not make the IS Gauss less likely to explode, or even not explode at all? Why are we always trying to make the tech bases the same?

Normally I'd agree with an asymmetrical approach, but in the specific case of laser duration we've already tried this and it had extremely terrible gameplay consequences. Remember the 2.0 second Clan ERLL? Remember the TBR, SCR, and DWF negative beam duration quirks? It creates an obnoxious amount of facetime for the laser mech and also greatly increases the number of friendly fire incidences.

[AEgg]

FupDup, on 26 June 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Normally I'd agree with an asymmetrical approach, but in the specific case of laser duration we've already tried this and it had extremely terrible gameplay consequences. Remember the 2.0 second Clan ERLL? Remember the TBR, SCR, and DWF negative beam duration quirks? It creates an obnoxious amount of facetime for the laser mech and also greatly increases the number of friendly fire incidences.

Obnoxious facetime is literally the entire point of longer duration, 'Working as Intended'. If people don't like it, then use another weapon. Ok, yes, clan ballistics have the same problem right now, and don't get used much. But that's not a bad thing. If there's always some alternative that gets around the downside, the downside isn't really working to begin with (or the upside isn't good enough)

FF I can kind of agree was a problem, though one that might not be that hard to solve (i.e. limit FF damage of lasers or something).

But still, doesn't have to be facetime. Something that makes lasers different is all I'd like to see. Why not try having lasers behave like MW3 where they're insta-fire, but increase heat and reduce damage? Ideas aren't hard to come by, they're just harder to implement than adjusting existing stuff by trivial percentages.

[The Mysterious Fox]

all mechs need a buff to their base agility so that torso twisting and hitbox management is more effective again. then we'll be able to get rid of those stupid over quirked armour and structure mechs and actually reward a higher skill ceiling

[FupDup]

AEgg, on 26 June 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Obnoxious facetime is literally the entire point of longer duration, 'Working as Intended'. If people don't like it, then use another weapon. Ok, yes, clan ballistics have the same problem right now, and don't get used much. But that's not a bad thing. If there's always some alternative that gets around the downside, the downside isn't really working to begin with (or the upside isn't good enough)

Come on, you know there's a difference between having a downside and having the downside be so large that it renders the weapons in question nearly unusable (like the 2.0 second Clan ERLL duration). There is a practical limit on things like this, similar to how there's also a limit on how slow projectile weapons can be before they become crap (i.e. the 850 m/s on the PPC was nowhere near enough for a long-range weapon).

On a side note, Clan ballistic duration isn't nearly as long as lasers, people over-exaggerate that a lot.

AEgg, on 26 June 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

But still, doesn't have to be facetime. Something that makes lasers different is all I'd like to see. Why not try having lasers behave like MW3 where they're insta-fire, but increase heat and reduce damage? Ideas aren't hard to come by, they're just harder to implement than adjusting existing stuff by trivial percentages.

The issue with PPFLD lasers like MW3 and MW4 is that they are hitscan rather than velocity-based like ACs, PPCs, etc. Instant hit and frontloaded hit are quite good characteristics individually and become pretty cray cray when combined together unless the base stats are really reined in hard to counteract those advantages.

Also, for heat increases I'd advise against that because it further highlights the woes of the Clan bad mechs that lack the tonnage to properly boat DHS (my Virago could live with a heat nerf just fine but something like an Ice Ferret would be rekt).

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2018 - 08:04 PM.

[FupDup]

The Mysterious Fox, on 26 June 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

all mechs need a buff to their base agility so that torso twisting and hitbox management is more effective again. then we'll be able to get rid of those stupid over quirked armour and structure mechs and actually reward a higher skill ceiling

The issue with across-the-board agility buffs is that, depending on the values, it could marginalize lights and mediums by making apex heavies and assaults able to keep anybody in their crosshairs regardless of the target's speed. However, I won't disagree that certain specific mechs could use a little more mobility (not the same as giving more mobility to everybody).

It's something that has to be done very, very carefully unless we want to just buff the armor and/or firepower on mediums and lights if they lose their ability to out-maneuver larger units.

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2018 - 08:02 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Longer duration lasers is not a sustainable approach. Clan lasers are already borderline useless on Clan Lights, to the point where IS dominate them when it comes to energy builds. Note, when I say Lights I am not talking about faux mediums like the KFX, ADR, and COU. I mean the "classic" hit-and-run, duelist, assassin Lights like the JR7-IIC, ACH, PIR, MLX, and soon the INC. Like, what do they have that compares with 6x IS Medium Lasers? The closest they have is 4x cMPL, which is hotter and heavier once you add in the extra heatsinks the lighter IS MedLas build affords. And the IS Medium Pulse? Clans have nothing there. Some have found cSPL to remain serviceable on Lights, but frankly I can get the same kind of performance out of a wombo-combo of IS MPL and IS SL/ERSL for the same weight, similar heat, similar range, and better damage.

So, if we increase face-time to reel in the fatmechs, are Clan Lights supposed to just continue being meh unless they are MG boats? Are we going to quirk them all for laser duration? Even for the fatmechs, how are Clan ERLL then supposed to win trades at all with ERLL Battlemasters? Do we then nerf the IS ERLL? How far are we going to ride this train until we end up back where we started?

Nope. Not going to work. Heat, too, is not an option because the Lights are again going to feel the brunt of it.

Really, none of the "nerf Clan" options seem to do anything helpful without shafting their Lights and bad Mechs. Shorter cool-downs to level the DPS playing field between IS and Clan lasers and slightly more potent IS DHS would basically solve the bulk of the disparity without sacrificing the flavor. But then you get the TTK crowd crowing...

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Let IS gauss have 2 firing modes. Snap shot with no charge. The way it is now. Drastically reduced range and reduced damage for snap shot. Decrease chance of blowing up.

We can toggle AMS on and off. Could it work the same with firing modes?

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 26 June 2018 - 08:33 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mechwarrior1441491, on 26 June 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

Let IS gauss have 2 firing modes. Snap shot with no charge. The way it is now. Drastically reduced range and reduced damage for snap shot. Decrease chance of blowing up.

We can toggle AMS on and off. Could it work the same with firing modes?

Nah, otherwise we would have select fire LBXs already.

[Nightbird]

Every change, no matter how welcome or despised, can be traced back to a suggestion from the community.

Buckle your seat belts for the actual decease in damage.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

El Bandito, on 26 June 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

Nah, otherwise we would have select fire LBXs already.

I believe that problem stems from using 2 ammo types for a single weapon.

[lazorbeamz]

The Mysterious Fox, on 26 June 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

all mechs need a buff to their base agility so that torso twisting and hitbox management is more effective again. then we'll be able to get rid of those stupid over quirked armour and structure mechs and actually reward a higher skill ceiling

Better not. Right now mechs which have anomalous agility are actually very noticeably unique and pretty good most of the time. Too much agility = quake.

In the end im pretty sure we are going to receive DPS or damage per heat (or both?) advantages for the clan lasers.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 26 June 2018 - 09:51 PM.

[Yosharian]

PGI is caught between wanting to make money ("Get your pre-order Mad Cat MK2s here boys! Get em while they're hot!") and wanting (apparently) to keep the community happy with the level of balance ("Oh ****, what do we do about this Mad Cat MK2 lads?").

You can't have both, PGI. If the Mad Cat MK2 is a problem, then nerf the Mad Cat MK2. The problem is, you don't have the nuts.

Edited by Yosharian, 26 June 2018 - 09:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

heres the thing that bothers me about this:

laser alphas stack better on the clan side so why are we adding recoil to gauss?

this is what pgi likes to do they have a simple well defined problem and then they expand it to include other less severe problems, the result will be a fix that does not solve the original problem but solves some strawman issue instead. this is why energy draw failed.

it also doesnt close the arbitrary gh loopholes which are an even bigger problem imho.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 June 2018 - 10:19 PM.

[Spheroid]

Recoil is pointless. The gauss shot is taken at the end of a beam discharge so the recoil shake will simple happen during the energy cooldown.

I don't see the relevance of the mechanic.

[Vellron2005]

I'm so happy I'm a LRM boat user..

[BurningDesire]

yay still not addressing dual HGR vs anything smaller than a 60T heavy, cause you know nothing like being 1 shot.
guess i can use my skills and roll the damage like lasers.................