42 replies to this topic

[Phoenix 72]

Eisenhorne, on 27 July 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

Also, if you are capable of doing that much damage, it is imperative you do not ever push or "lead a charge". Your teammates are horribads.

So THAT is why I can never convince my Heavies and Assaults to push... They are just too valuable to the team effort to take damage.

[Eisenhorne]

Darakor Stormwind, on 27 July 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

So THAT is why I can never convince my Heavies and Assaults to push... They are just too valuable to the team effort to take damage.

Heh, usually not Usually they're just cowards or incompetents. But if you actually know what you're doing.... then yea don't lead a push. You'll just die and leave your team down a competent player.

[Phoenix 72]

Ah, then I guess it's fine that I am leading pushes after all. Did try to lead a push earlier today. Went quite well. Found out there was actually only one opponent there. Good for me, I was in my Kit Fox, after all.

What can I say, everybody kept yelling that we need to do a push out of the tunnel, but nobody was doing it.

Edited by Darakor Stormwind, 27 July 2018 - 09:30 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

Kinda pissed at the match maker again. I am 4 and 15 (and one tie) between yesterday and today. Funnily enough, I did make enough points to hit Tier 2, despite that. I think out of those matches there were only 1 or maybe 2 where I was actually graded down with the loss. So I still did reasonable well. Shouldn't the law of averages mean that as long as you produce an at least average performance, you should get a 1:1 win loss ratio? I had that for exactly 20 minutes (two whole games) over my entire MWO career now...

[Horseman]

Darakor Stormwind, on 29 July 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

Shouldn't the law of averages mean that as long as you produce an at least average performance, you should get a 1:1 win loss ratio?

Over a very large number of matches, provided there are no other variables in play.

[Tarl Cabot]

Horseman, on 29 July 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

Over a very large number of matches, provided there are no other variables in play.

This, and it is a TEAM effort. Generally the lack of communication and aggressiveness can mean the difference between a win/loss. I do wish PGI would show the the damaged percentages of the surviving mechs. Tis likely most of the surviving enemy are one or two shots away from dying themselves. And if that percentage is higher then you would definitely know you were rolled over.

[BWS2K]

Remember, too, that people are playing for different reasons. Some are drunk, some are shooting YouTube videos with crazy builds, some started playing last week during Summer Vacation and have logged a hundred hours and started in a Trial Assault that did a thousand points of damage in the first few matches and rocketed them up through the Tiers, some people have multiple accounts and might be in T4 but are really T1 since 2016, some are trying to sync drop with streamers and don't care about winning if they aren't successful, etc. A Matchmaker, even the most optimal one, simply cannot account for these kinds of things.

[Torage]

I see a lot of great answers and information here. In my personal experience (nearly t1), puting your mic to use is the single greatest factor in boosting your w/l ratio on t2+

[Daggett]

Marikhen, on 30 June 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

I've also gone from a roughly 1.0 win rate and 1.05 kill rate to much worse due to being constantly put on the side that gets stomped.

I'm pretty sure the MM does not hold a grudge against you personally and gives you all the bad matches.

To be more serious there are probably only two possibilities: You are either at least an average T2 player and you maybe just have a bad streak or need to get some experience dealing with T1 players so things will even out over time because the MM has to screw more people than just you. Or you are maybe not good enough for T2 which makes you a victim of the PSR XP-bar problem. In this case there is not much you can do except getting better or tweet-bombing Russ to finally improve/replace PSR...

Edited by Daggett, 08 August 2018 - 03:19 PM.

[TubbyToast]

Its not a snowball game playerbase acts like clockworks
I still see players after 4years not getting better or gain some gameflow skill...

[BWS2K]

Because there's no regulation on how to play, you have people who just started last week and have logged a hundred hours playing alongside people who've been playing for years casually for a couple hours on Friday night. Then you have the people trying out new builds playing with the people who are shooting videos for YouTube or streaming crazy builds or silly tactics. Of course you also have the players who can't play Lights because they'll get migraines and the people who don't play sober and the people who spend tons of money thinking it will help them 'git gud'... All these people are playing the same game at the same time.

The PSR is definitively not an XP bar - you will not magically trend upwards. There are criteria to meet for that to happen and so a lot of folks plateau earlier. Tier 2 seems to be a comfy spot for a lot of us. The most important thing to note, however, is that the tiers are utterly meaningless and, in the face of all that's been said, you either play MWO or you don't. Any hope beyond that is really just that... hope, lol.

[Horseman]

BWS2K, on 15 August 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

The PSR is definitively not an XP bar - you will not magically trend upwards.

You will trend upwards as long as you get a mediocre amount of damage on target... that is a proven fact. The PSR shift takes damage into account too heavily (not surprising given that it usually accounts for bulk of your match score)

[BWS2K]

Horseman, on 15 August 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

You will trend upwards as long as you get a mediocre amount of damage on target... that is a proven fact. The PSR shift takes damage into account too heavily (not surprising given that it usually accounts for bulk of your match score)

Correct. It's based on Match Score, of which damage is the largest factor. If, however, you are trying to play as something that isn't capable of achieving that requisite score consistently, then you aren't going to float up to T1. Some players simply prefer non-Meta Lights or builds that still contribute to wins but don't do lots of damage, meaning they will reach a point where their ability in that particular build limits the odds on their progressing through tiers. For evidence, I cite literally the fact that not everyone makes it to T1. It doesn't mean not everyone is capable of doing that, through grinding with high-damage 'mechs/builds, but simply that not every build is capable of carrying even veteran skilled players to T1 (in a QP environment).

Those are the facts.

Consider, for example, my own performance. I love Mist Lynxes. I'm really good in them. I plateaued (or slowed to a crawl) in T3 because until the MLX-G was released, the 'mech simply didn't have the ability to put out the necessary damage consistently to float me up (the Prime was my baby but it can only carry so much ammo). The MLX-G dropped in August and I was in T2 within a month - because it can put out more damage. Nothing else changed. My skill with the Lynxes is better than T3 (whatever that means) but the 'mechs weren't capable of consistently performing in a way that allowed me to continue progressing. When I was given that increased potential, I started climbing the tiers again. This isn't bragging - this is illustrating how the PSR works in practice. Not everyone floats up because there are criteria to hit that trigger (namely, consistent match scores above 250 - which is far more difficult in some 'mechs than others, and even moreso when you introduce all the other variables from QuickPlay like team composition, mode, etc.).

TL;DR The definition of 'mediocre' varies between 'mechs/builds.

[mad kat]

Short answer:There is no Match maker.

Hasn't been one for quite some time.

Despite what PGI may claim there is zero evidence of any team balancing going on.

In summary PGI either are unaware (unlikey) Don't care (very likely) or don't know what to do (also very likely)

[Horseman]

BWS2K, on 15 August 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

Correct. It's based on Match Score, of which damage is the largest factor. If, however, you are trying to play as something that isn't capable of achieving that requisite score consistently, then you aren't going to float up to T1. Some players simply prefer non-Meta Lights or builds that still contribute to wins but don't do lots of damage, meaning they will reach a point where their ability in that particular build limits the odds on their progressing through tiers. For evidence, I cite literally the fact that not everyone makes it to T1. It doesn't mean not everyone is capable of doing that, through grinding with high-damage 'mechs/builds, but simply that not every build is capable of carrying even veteran skilled players to T1 (in a QP environment).

PSR is labeled as a glorified XP bar not just because of the relative ease of getting a PSR increase but also the extremely low probability of getting a PSR drop.
As for players who always play a single mech and single build, those are an exception rather than the norm.

And as far as mediocre damage is concerned... as I recall it's possible to get a PSR increase when dealing double-digit damage if your team wins, just because you lightly scraped multiple enemies who later died to your teammates.

Edited by Horseman, 15 August 2018 - 02:24 PM.

[BWS2K]

So we agree - there are ways in which we can clearly see the PSR does not, in fact, float everyone to Tier 1.

[Horseman]

BWS2K, on 15 August 2018 - 06:54 PM, said:

So we agree - there are ways in which we can clearly see the PSR does not, in fact, float everyone to Tier 1.

But it does so for most players, provided they play enough matches.
There's a person I know of who has been in T1 for a year while having an average match score that barely croses 200 , Win/Loss 0.89 and KDR of 0.55 .

[BWS2K]

Horseman, on 15 August 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

But it does so for most players, provided they play enough matches.

...with 'mechs/builds capable of consistently hitting that requisite Match Score. You can play hundreds of hours in a NARC Raven but if you're bringing NARCs in QuickPlay and nobody on your team brought LRMs, then you're likely not scoring the damage necessary to bring up your Match Score (not to mention the detriment of wasted tonnage you're bringing your team). So if your goal is to Tier Up (and I'm not saying it should be... in fact, I'm saying it shouldn't be... ever... that way lies salt - your goal should be to win a match whether you survive it or not), then you'll want to play a couple drops with, say, your MLX-G or Deathstrike or whatever, just to balance things out PSR-wise.

That there are people in T1 who don't belong there is just further evidence that the PSR is broken - it's fairly easy to get the required damage in the earlier tiers and rise up to a higher standing in just the first few dozen matches with a little luck because of the way it's weighted in the beginning. Once you're in a spot long enough for your true colors to show though, there's little chance of falling back to where you ought to be.

What the PSR does is advance a player through the tiers based largely on damage dealt above all other factors because MWO is a shooter. If you aren't shooting someone, you're not playing it the way it's designed. Yes, there are lots of 'mechs and builds for things like scouting and capping and all other kinds of things but the fact that those things exist doesn't mean they are encouraged or even recommended. It's not the way MWO is made to be played. So you have folks stuck in the lower tiers forever because they can't seem to deal that damage consistently and you have people in the top tiers who got there solely by dealing damage and now find themselves against players who work as a team and utilize tactics that go beyond 'rush in and shoot' and so their numbers suffer. No one gets to T1 with stats like that but lots of folks gets stats like that once they arrive because they don't belong in T1 except by the relatively arbitrary inflation of damage over other win-contributing factors.

All that said, PSR isn't an XP bar, it's a measure of how successful a player is at consistently achieving the Match Score PGI has determined defines a competent pilot, of which they decided damage was the primary factor. The idea that everyone floats to the top comes from Paul's post ages ago in which he also literally says the opposite (that people plateau). It's more complicated, and yet more simple, than time spent playing MWO. I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but it's important for one reason alone: Population. MWO needs more players. When the rookies get here and hear about PSR, they're getting the wrong ideas. It should be disregarded entirely. Just play to have fun. There's no 'winning' MWO - it's just the same things over and over again. T1, and the PSR system, doesn't mean anything of substance, since it can mean so many different things at the same time.

[Horseman]

BWS2K, on 15 August 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

...with 'mechs/builds capable of consistently hitting that requisite Match Score.

Quote

All that said, PSR isn't an XP bar, it's a measure of how successful a player is at consistently achieving the Match Score PGI has determined defines a competent pilot, of which they decided damage was the primary factor.

Quote

No one gets to T1 with stats like that but lots of folks gets stats like that once they arrive because they don't belong in T1 except by the relatively arbitrary inflation of damage over other win-contributing factors.

The PSR change calculation is quite lopsided and allows players to increase in PSR despite not meaningfully contributing if the remainder of their team carries the match - see PSR increase on double digit damage with 1 ERLL Spider - while decreasing requires both a terrible performance and a loss.
Ultimately, rising up tiers boils down not to doing consistently well, but rather to not tanking too much PSR on losses. If you're in that zone - which isn't hard at all - your PSR will slowly crawl upwards.

Edited by Horseman, 16 August 2018 - 02:41 AM.

[salkeee]

On topic: One of reasons why are some games so one sided is that in those higher tiers there are some regular drop callers and if one team gets cordinated he will in 80% cases just dominate.