Well you can actually abuse ersmalls on a nova. 12 er small, 4 clan mg. Sometimes produces funny results and will grind through CT of many heavies very quickly. I also enjoy playing 6 ersmall 2 ultra 10 ebon jaguar. These weapons stack together for very good alpha damage.
And really 5 damage goes down to 4.5 its not a big deal just a 10% diffirece while the dps actually stays. I think that we did have a cooldown increase for ersmalls in one of the recent patches and this leads to the conclusion that this weapon is statistically above average right now. Just absurd pinpoint damage for tonnage spent, similar to a heavy medium laser but without the evil duration and heat plus you can fire 6 of them instead of 4.
It's not so much that clan ErSmalls are too much value for their tonnage so much as PGI refuses to take IS smalls out of the trashcan.
I hear a lot of people complaining of the game being stale, but here I see some people complaining that they have to change their favorite builds...after playing laser meta for how long...?
1. Your builds will still work, while not 50% stronger than IS counterpart, they will only be 15% stronger then.
2. This game is about customizing the heck out of mechs and not playing your standard RPG mage/warrior/hunter with a 2 button combo.
3. With the reduction of Laser vomit from the top Alpha (not sustained dps, mind you), you will have more reason to get your other weapons dusted off (SRM brawling, UACs, ATMS... name it), as the advantage gap of laser boats will be lower.
and finally, if the overall Clan "power" of all clan weapons is then only 90-100% of IS weapons, PGI said they will reduce quirks of the IS mechs down again (or reduce some IS outliners like HGR).
No our builds will not still work. No they will not only be 15% stronger than IS counterparts. No this will not finally bring clan lasers in line. It will make clan lasers significantly underpowered at every range bracket except the extreme range bracket, that's just the name of the game.
This patch will do nothing to rectify the fact that most other clan weapons are dismal compared to IS offerings. Yes you heard me correctly: they are dismal. Read: inferior. Yes the clan UAC/20 is bad weapon, so are our SRMS, or are our ATMs, so are our standard autocannons. Everything else of ours is mediocre. Not compared to our lasers, compared to the IS lasers, compared to all of the IS weaponry. People don't run clan lasers because they're too good to run anything else Reno, they clan lasers because everything else clan is mediocre to bad.
If clan non-laser weapons stacked up to IS offerings you'd see more of them in the field, even if the lasers were better, same way as you do see plenty of different IS builds take the field that aren't the bleeding edge of the meta.
At the end of the day I think you only like these changes because you desperately want TTK to go up and you dream of an MWO where nerfage finally brings TTK into that high state you're looking for. I'm sorry to say, you might be on a peninsula where the water is kinda lapping up to cover the sandbar that connects you to the rest of the continent, if you catch my drift. And even if PGI is on it with you, if you guys kill this game, nobody is going to play it with you, and you can't argue and reason with people into having fun
Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 11 July 2018 - 01:44 PM.
You are saying that all non-laser Clan weapons are so bad?
That's one of the issues of the Clan laser power. If it's the best weapon, all others are not even considered.
Get the lasers down to the Apples, then everyone will shoot Apples instead of a few people shooting shiny diamonds.
since it is impossible to reason with you, I challenge you to Trial of Potatness, in which you instantly lose and all your arguments become invalid because you dont understand how the game works.
see guys, that was easy and no need to type walls of text
The quirks and skill nodes will scale the before and after values the same, meaning those reductions in DPH will persist. You can also calculate a mech's sustained dps by multiplying the maximum dps by the heat efficiency. So because DPH is going down, sustained dps goes down, whether you can alpha more times or not. you are correct though that the deathstrike for example gets a buff with this with the ghost heat change, rather than the nerf that was intended for it. Lighter clan mechs unable to take 3erLL will suffer tho.
I will need to look at the math on what you're stating. If you take the base values and then decrease the heat gen more while the damage stays the same, it would make more sense that the DPS and DPH would increase slightly, because you can fire more times before you overheat. But from how you describe it, it's like additional negative values also get added in. Except there are no negative quirks or weapon skill nodes that would decrease the damage. Not saying you're wrong, because frankly, I don't calculate the numbers for every build I make because I feel that only really applies to players who alpha all the time, whereas I alternate my fire, so I can keep firing, without having to cool off too often. I'll give you this, at least your civil about your argument. Unlike that other guy.
Vesper11, on 11 July 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:
You should spend more than 20 seconds on math and actually study it, there's just so much ******** in your post. Do you understand that heat management doesn't mean a **** if that heat doesn't translate into damage? Because this is what we are getting here. Oh, and nice "4" cERLL/cLPL buff, seems like "20 second math" isn't the only problem: Heat Scale Trigger Increased to 4 (from 3) - This means that you will receive the first heat scale penalty when firing 4 Clan ER-Large Lasers.
Really? You're going to insult my intelligence now? I didn't spend 20 seconds on my math, I stated I calculated the math for a window of 20 seconds. If you must know, I basically chose one of the weapons on the list (used the MedPls), decided to do the math based on firing 4 at once, which was a random number I wanted to use for the grouping. Sure I could have used 1, but I didn't want to. And then I calculated how much damage and heat it would generate within 20 seconds without going over. Why did I choose 20 seconds? Because I wanted to. That and I calculated that pre-nerf cMedPls did more damage 0 to shutdown only firing 4 times while post-nerf cMedpls did a little less damage from 0 to shutdown even after being able to get 5 shots in. And I never said anything about not worrying about damage when referring to heat management. Of course damage matters. Better heat management means I can keep dishing out the damage without shutting myself down and giving everyone a free killshot chance before I can power back on. If you're going to insult my intelligence, at least have some of your own.
Also having said that, I will at least admit I misread the heat scale trigger. While I did know the current is that Clan can fire 2 without ghost heat, I can honestly say I had a brain fart there and was thinking you had to go higher than 4 to trigger it in the PTS notes.
The quirks and skill nodes will scale the before and after values the same, meaning those reductions in DPH will persist. You can also calculate a mech's sustained dps by multiplying the maximum dps by the heat efficiency. So because DPH is going down, sustained dps goes down, whether you can alpha more times or not. you are correct though that the deathstrike for example gets a buff with this with the ghost heat change, rather than the nerf that was intended for it. Lighter clan mechs unable to take 3erLL will suffer tho.
I can fit 6 mpl on my kit fox.. just means I'll use it for sniping with 3erl now..
The problem is the fact PGI seems to be doing this with out any real representation of the community every nerf thus far as been aimed at clans and there weapons no IS nerfs. The nerfs also don't seem to account that alot of IS mechs guarks can make up the difference in range on IS er mediums and surpass the range on ER mediums and then you ad in the skills and the rest will surpass range of of clan er meds as well as having superior heat,cooldown, and beam duration.
if they really wanted to balance the game they will have to choose between balanceing the mechs or the weapons not both because then you have **** like we play now.
if they choose to balance the game around weapons remove all quarks to all mech chassies for everything then you can balance the game around the weapons only
If they choose to balance the game around each individual mech then don't nerf the weapons only *** positive and negative quarks to mechs like like it really applys to alot of clan mechs since if you change one omni pod all quarks it had are now gone.
To be perfectly honest if PGI carries on this path they will destroy there game slowly because faction play is dead and Solorise was a pretty big flop as well so "destroying' peoples mechs they like will not end well especially if they continue this path i see mass exodus of players.
on a final noth alot of these changes affect almost all clan mechs that have lasers not just the meta laser vomit so that meens every mech will either change or disappear off the battle field for having too weak of weapons as a secondary or primary weapon to be worth bringing out
The problem is the fact PGI seems to be doing this with out any real representation of the community every nerf thus far as been aimed at clans and there weapons no IS nerfs. The nerfs also don't seem to account that alot of IS mechs guarks can make up the difference in range on IS er mediums and surpass the range on ER mediums and then you ad in the skills and the rest will surpass range of of clan er meds as well as having superior heat,cooldown, and beam duration.
if they really wanted to balance the game they will have to choose between balanceing the mechs or the weapons not both because then you have **** like we play now.
if they choose to balance the game around weapons remove all quarks to all mech chassies for everything then you can balance the game around the weapons only
If they choose to balance the game around each individual mech then don't nerf the weapons only *** positive and negative quarks to mechs like like it really applys to alot of clan mechs since if you change one omni pod all quarks it had are now gone.
To be perfectly honest if PGI carries on this path they will destroy there game slowly because faction play is dead and Solorise was a pretty big flop as well so "destroying' peoples mechs they like will not end well especially if they continue this path i see mass exodus of players.
on a final noth alot of these changes affect almost all clan mechs that have lasers not just the meta laser vomit so that meens every mech will either change or disappear off the battle field for having too weak of weapons as a secondary or primary weapon to be worth bringing out
don't know when you are dropping FP but it's far from dead. ARC7 drops Monday night's and we always get fights.
How many times did you nerf the clan lasers now ?
Is it not canon that Clan stuff is better than IS at most things (by quite some margin)?
As the game is mainly a brawl fest, its rare that you get a match that does not devolve into a brawl IS smaller cool down, duration, heat, skill tree (which gives IS more armor and structure per point) and freaking quirks (cool down/range/armor/structure) are quite effective at negating the Clans longer range and higher damage.
Or are we going to start getting quirks like crazy on clan mechs as well to compensate ?
People need to learn to pilot the damn things better, learn positioning, tactics and TEAM WORK. Not to whine to make the two factions indistinguishable.
PS: spreading the damage, shielding and positioning also mitigate high alphas (applies to both factions)
Also you can do the double shotgun build (2x LBX10 + 4x ML) on a MAD & a MAD IIC (the MAD with Medium Lasers and the MAD IIC Mediul Pulse) and they will do roughly the same amount of damage in QP although the IIC is 10 tonnes heavier.
Similar case with the Warhammer Laservom and Hellbringer (Larges+Mediums), with a 5 ton difference.
Jack Shayu Walker, on 11 July 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:
It's not so much that clan ErSmalls are too much value for their tonnage so much as PGI refuses to take IS smalls out of the trashcan.
What's bad about IS smalls? They have ridiculous heat efficiency, it's just IS doesn't have mechs that can boat 12 SLs at once.
Sevronis, on 11 July 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:
And I never said anything about not worrying about damage when referring to heat management. Of course damage matters. Better heat management means I can keep dishing out the damage without shutting myself down and giving everyone a free killshot chance before I can power back on.
Heat management, is, well... managing heat, right? Aka watching the heat gauge trying not to overheat while doing at least some damage for which out of all weapons you have you fire only ones with best DPH because heat per second dissipation is limited and you have to make best use of heat available, so maximum damage for heat dissipated. If it's overheating because you can't watch heat it's simply heat not management.
Shooting more with those nerfs is just an illusion of "being useful", in the end you do less damage than before, enemy stays alive longer and hurts you or your teammates more, aka you become weaker and less useful to the team.
Also, adding recoil to gauss won't bother me AND I personally think it makes sense. The IS Heavy Gauss is so huge that it gets recoil, the Clan gauss weighs less than the normal IS version AND takes up a smaller space. Don't you think a smaller space would mean less room for recoil stabilizers? Yes, I'm getting technical, but that's what I do
Recoil on weapons that use ELECTROMAGNETISM to accelerate a projectile doesn't even make sense in the first place.
Clan Gauss is smaller and lighter due to clan omni mechs having less crit slots and tonnage,so its a balancing factor back from the TT.Recoil was only added in both TT and this very game to limit pinpoint alpha.aka crosshair shake in this game and worsened roll for hit chance and damage in TT
in short: recoil on gauss is nonsense,and if this brainfart gets through,i demand the IS one to suffer the same penatly
Recoil on weapons that use ELECTROMAGNETISM to accelerate a projectile doesn't even make sense in the first place.
Clan Gauss is smaller and lighter due to clan omni mechs having less crit slots and tonnage,so its a balancing factor back from the TT.Recoil was only added in both TT and this very game to limit pinpoint alpha.aka crosshair shake in this game and worsened roll for hit chance and damage in TT
in short: recoil on gauss is nonsense,and if this brainfart gets through,i demand the IS one to suffer the same penatly
I suppose I was in the mindset of the fictional Battletech universe. But true, I've seen videos of handmade gauss rifles, and I don't notice any recoil. That was small arms though. What about big guns. I saw another video of a US railgun (same thing basically) and it had some recoil to it. Not the kind of huge recoil the Heavy Gauss in MWO does where it can shake mountains, but there was still the same noticeable recoil you would see while firing a normal rifle or cannon.
The video I mentioned. Only saw a real firing at the beginning, the rest was pretty much all simulation. But it did have a bit of a recoil.
Vesper11, on 11 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:
What's bad about IS smalls? They have ridiculous heat efficiency, it's just IS doesn't have mechs that can boat 12 SLs at once.
Heat management, is, well... managing heat, right? Aka watching the heat gauge trying not to overheat while doing at least some damage for which out of all weapons you have you fire only ones with best DPH because heat per second dissipation is limited and you have to make best use of heat available, so maximum damage for heat dissipated. If it's overheating because you can't watch heat it's simply heat not management.
Shooting more with those nerfs is just an illusion of "being useful", in the end you do less damage than before, enemy stays alive longer and hurts you or your teammates more, aka you become weaker and less useful to the team.
There is more to heat management. It's not just watching your heat, it's also how fast you can dissipate it, what weapons you use and when, and how much heat they generate. That last one is situational though. If you are a cover peeker, then you basically pop out, shoot, get back in cover, and then cool off. But if you are a brawler, if you use too much heat generating damage, only getting one or two shots off before overheating might make you just as useless (especially if you miss or don't do full damage). If you can't shoot cause you're cooling off too long or shut down, you aren't doing damage either. Doing it properly also gives a bit more room for those 'oops' moments when you accidentally shoot a full alpha and shutdown from overheating. Sure you can turn on Override, and then that 'oops' alpha may just kill you instead. You can claim you never did that, but I've always seen at least one or two players who still bump the wrong button, at times I'm even one of those players. I personally don't like riding heat that high and rarely use override. If I can continuously keep shooting and still cool down to stay in the 50%-70% heat range, then I don't see how that's being useless as that is continuous damage.
I suppose I was in the mindset of the fictional Battletech universe. But true, I've seen videos of handmade gauss rifles, and I don't notice any recoil. That was small arms though. What about big guns. I saw another video of a US railgun (same thing basically) and it had some recoil to it. Not the kind of huge recoil the Heavy Gauss in MWO does where it can shake mountains, but there was still the same noticeable recoil you would see while firing a normal rifle or cannon.
The video I mentioned. Only saw a real firing at the beginning, the rest was pretty much all simulation. But it did have a bit of a recoil.
There is more to heat management. It's not just watching your heat, it's also how fast you can dissipate it, what weapons you use and when, and how much heat they generate. That last one is situational though. If you are a cover peeker, then you basically pop out, shoot, get back in cover, and then cool off. But if you are a brawler, if you take too much heat generating damage, only getting one or two shots off before overheating might make you just as useless. If you can't shoot cause you're cooling off, you aren't doing damage either.. Doing it properly also gives a bit more room for those 'oops' moments when you accidentally shoot a full alpha and shutdown from overheating. Sure you can turn on Override, and then that 'oops' alpha may just kill you instead. You can claim you never did that, but I've always seen at least one or two players who still bump the wrong button, at times I'm even one of those players. I personally don't like riding heat that high and rarely use override. If I can continuously keep shooting and still cool down to stay in the 50%-70% heat range, then I don't see how that's being useless as that is continuous damage.
the recoil of that railgun is about6-8 inches... should NOT shake a multi ton mech....
Recoil on weapons that use ELECTROMAGNETISM to accelerate a projectile doesn't even make sense in the first place.
Wrong.
Newton's Third Law: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
The electromagnetic force is just a propellant, like the gases generated with burning gunpowder. As it pushes on the projectile, it also pushes against the rest of the weapon. Because the energy imparted into both projectile and weapon is the same, and because the projectile is less massive than the combination of the rest of the weapon and the structure it is braced against (i.e. the ground), the projectile must necessarily move at a higher velocity to have the same energy value and thus exits the barrel.
This is why you get recoil.
Note, that does not mean I like them adding it to the cGauss.
There is more to heat management. It's not just watching your heat, it's also how fast you can dissipate it, what weapons you use and when, and how much heat they generate. That last one is situational though. If you are a cover peeker, then you basically pop out, shoot, get back in cover, and then cool off. But if you are a brawler, if you use too much heat generating damage, only getting one or two shots off before overheating might make you just as useless (especially if you miss or don't do full damage). If you can't shoot cause you're cooling off too long or shut down, you aren't doing damage either. Doing it properly also gives a bit more room for those 'oops' moments when you accidentally shoot a full alpha and shutdown from overheating. Sure you can turn on Override, and then that 'oops' alpha may just kill you instead. You can claim you never did that, but I've always seen at least one or two players who still bump the wrong button, at times I'm even one of those players. I personally don't like riding heat that high and rarely use override. If I can continuously keep shooting and still cool down to stay in the 50%-70% heat range, then I don't see how that's being useless as that is continuous damage.
No, there is nothing more to heat management. 50-70% range with lower shot frequency but higher DPH will do more damage than "shooting continuously" with nerfed lasers as you say, all you have to do is manage heat. "oops" moments is simply being bad, hot mechs are part of clan, if you don't like it go IS, don't ask to turn clan into IS.
I asked a Battletech group I frequent how one balances the Clans. Fact is, Clans have always been OP, but the Tabletop builds in rules to regulate them, stuff like Battle Value 2.0 or Zellbringen. Well, the former is essentially replaced by the tonnage limit, and that got rolled back to the max weight for mediums, so now we have Ryokens and Noboris carving through IS forces in Scout mode, and then FLIPPING PIRANHAS nibbling us to death with their MGs. As for Zell, that's essentially a restriction on the rules for Clan Players, and no player in their right mind is gonna play like that unless it's an RP server.
So, what we had was a situation where the Clans had better... everything, and came in five units instead of just four. Now, in MWO, the fifth Point doesn't exist, so I like to assume that's a gang of Elementals, but, aheh, forgive me for thinking the thing designed to be OP are just a little too OP. Now, I personally handle things by making the Clans NPC opponents like the Shivans they're supposed to be equivalent to, but unless you have some way to balance things, sticking to TT rules means you're going to have a lot of Clan players dominate; and as a Davion supporter since... day one? I don't like that idea.
Personally, if I had my way, I'd go with the Master Unit List and just give the IS access to Clan Mechs. The Davions, my faction, are one of the Primary users of the Mark II, even! But what do I know? I'm Tier 5, I'm more interested in having fun then metagaming my way to the top. (I am of course only partially being snide, I'm pretty bad at this game)
In conclusion, I'm not here to tell you your complaints are invalid... except the ones that say "I can't use my cheat codes anymore! I am totally never gonna quit this game but start complaining about it a little bit more!"
For the record, Clan lasers currently have DPH so similar to IS as to be largely meaningless while being able to mount more DHS outside of the Light class.
Like, the ER lasers are all within a few hundredths of a point except the Large. The Clan Pulse are more analogous in specs and in-game performance to standard IS lasers and are also all within a few hundredths except for the standard IS Small (though despite being 2.95 DPH, the IS Small does so little damage nobody takes it anyway just like the Micros).
So saying "Clans run hot" is and always has been a misnomer, because that's just appearances. They do not run hotter from a pure damage-over-heat-over-dissipation perspective, as is evidenced by the sustained alpha-strike DPS number you find on Smurphy's.
For the record, Clan lasers currently have DPH so similar to IS as to be largely meaningless while being able to mount more DHS outside of the Light class.
Like, the ER lasers are all within a few hundredths of a point except the Large. The Clan Pulse are more analogous in specs and in-game performance to standard IS lasers and are also all within a few hundredths except for the standard IS Small (though despite being 2.95 DPH, the IS Small does so little damage nobody takes it anyway just like the Micros).
So saying "Clans run hot" is and always has been a misnomer, because that's just appearances. They do not run hotter from a pure damage-over-heat-over-dissipation perspective, as is evidenced by the sustained alpha-strike DPS number you find on Smurphy's.
I use SLs and micros suck hard unlike SLs. cHSLs and cHMLs suck too.
At 270m and below IS stuff is colder but clan has hardpoint efficiency, at 330+ clan stuff is better but that's where ballistics are preferred when it comes to heat management, though not everyone can use them, and above all MRM30/40 and RACs are super heat efficient, so yes, IS do run colder and no wonder that most clan builds are 330+m.
I use SLs and micros suck hard unlike SLs. cHSLs and cHMLs suck too.
At 270m and below IS stuff is colder but clan has hardpoint efficiency, at 330+ clan stuff is better but that's where ballistics are preferred when it comes to heat management, though not everyone can use them, and above all MRM30/40 and RACs are super heat efficient, so yes, IS do run colder and no wonder that most clan builds are 330+m.
SLs only have utility as poor-man's MPLs on Lights. Otherwise, not damaging enough to matter and you are better off dedicating that tonnage to your primary armament.
Below 300 meters, the cHSL, cERSL and cSPL are still running much higher sustained DPS all said-and-done with higher alphas than you can achieve with isSL, isERSL, and isSPL, not that either side's SPLs are anything to write home about. Exception for Lights, where the Clans do not have a significant tonnage advantage to cool them and the duration makes them sub-optimal.
I also would point out that the IS do not even use lasers under 330 meters, either, they just go to SRMs or MRMs and they use ballistics from 0-900. The only significant IS use of lasers outside of the Clan power-zone is on classic fast Lights, where Clan lasers are terrible since you can't apply the Clan tonnage advantage to cool them and duration gets them killed. Otherwise, the overwhelming majority of IS laser builds are operating at mid-range with combinations of Large- and Medium-class lasers with a handful running ER Larges...same as the Clans.
As for bringing up ballistics at all, Clans run all types colder outside of RACs because the heat is the same as the IS ones but with more DHS. RAC/2 is the sole exception, as RAC/5 are quite hot and both RAC sizes are unfocused even relative to the more disparate cUACs. MRMs and ATMs are similarly efficient as each other, though they obviously do not quite behave the same ways and perform the same roles. Either way, doesn't matter because that's you moving the goal-post in a discussion about lasers efficiency and, in that case, I am not wrong.
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lazorbeamz, on 11 July 2018 - 06:07 AM, said:
