518 replies to this topic

[Rho Treska]

Daurock, on 09 July 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

In my opinion, (and at least from my observations, one shared with the developers) the way you diversify clan-side mech builds is a two step process - first, bringing the lasers to a level where it's no longer a no-brainer to take them over other weaponry for so many mechs. Second, finding the chassis that under-perform after those changes, and bring them up to a usable level. We're currently at step 1. Whether you believe they'll actually progress to step 2 is up to you, but i'm inclined to think that they will. (Though i would at least like to hear it.)

Alternative suggestion:
-Get rid of quirks
-Assign tabletop values to all weapons and DHS (hell, even the 10s cooldown for all I care)
-Assign tonnage modifiers to Clan 'mechs in the matchmaker. They are better ton for ton, so treat them like that.
-Finally let the MM create asymmetric teams.

Expected outcome:
-Clan 'mechs that feel like Clan 'mechs and IS teams who get the real Invasion experience
-Longer wait times for heavyweight clanners, yes, but that can be fluffed lore-friendly as "You're bid away by the commander"
-More encouraged team play as every match might start with a different team size and composition
-Hilarious and exciting videos of a 5 Kodiak team throwing down with an IS company averaging at 70+ tons.

That's a one-step solution.

[Vesper11]

Daurock, on 09 July 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

Spoiler

IS mediums and lights have been making do with SRMs, Lasers nearly as bad as the proposed ones, fewer sinks, often XL vulnerability, and many have still been very successful. Believe it or not, IS Mediums can't mount many Medium/Long range weapons either. The only thing the chassis (sometimes) have over their Clan counterparts are Quirks and agility.
Up to this point, the power provided by the current clan lasers has been so strong that Clan mechs haven't needed those things to be successful. Remove that crutch, and you pave the way for a LOT of clan mechs to be buffed. In the bigger picture, clan lasers have pigeon holed many clan mechs, simply by being the best ton for ton weaponry in the game, often by a significant margin.

You're absolutely right that for many clan medium and light mechs, (and some of the heavies for that matter) it's Lasers or bust. In my view, that's a bad thing. In my opinion, (and at least from my observations, one shared with the developers) the way you diversify clan-side mech builds is a two step process - first, bringing the lasers to a level where it's no longer a no-brainer to take them over other weaponry for so many mechs. Second, finding the chassis that under-perform after those changes, and bring them up to a usable level. We're currently at step 1. Whether you believe they'll actually progress to step 2 is up to you, but i'm inclined to think that they will. (Though i would at least like to hear it.)

The IS side is Much more diverse today, in no small part because the IS Lasers have competitive alternatives. I may see few pure IS Laser vomits, but I still see plenty of IS Lasers of all varieties around. (except maybe the IS small class lasers, which actually do probably need a buff.) The Weapons are not Bad - They simply are not hands down better than other similarly sized IS options, they way it is on the clan side. If IS lasers got buffed to the level of clan lasers, you'd (just like clan) find everyone not driving an assault gravitate towards LL/ML Spam. That's not a real solution.

Mediums and lights in general could use a buff, it's heavy/assaultfest now. I actually like that IS has more armor, it makes them different from clans, if anything I want armor to stay there. As for agility, I'm not sure, I wish there was more brawling though...
When IS got new missiles and ballistics for civil war clans got lasers, I actually see lasers as integral part of clan gameplay where IS has to be more varied. I don't like IS lasers and see them as sidearms when you have extra heat to spare. With lasers, if you replace extra free tonnage lasers get over heavier weapons with DHS they would still be hotter than ballistics or missiles and heat is often the limit even on medium mechs. I don't really see anything to replace them at medium range, clans don't have alternatives to MRMs or RACs to provide good damage/weight (even with spread) other than lasers as ATMs are too gimmicky. If those nerfs get out I'm not sure we'll see more variety on larger mechs as those already use AC and UAC stacks but I'm certain we'll see even less variety of light and medium mechs.
At close range both sides already use all weapons available it's just close range and brawling go toe to toe thus you don't see small lasers often.

Edited by Vesper11, 09 July 2018 - 09:01 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Interested to see how the energy changes go could be interesting, though 5.25 may be a little low for cER MLs.

Clan Gauss recoil is cancer and should be removed.

[Hal Greaves]

Some energy changes are necessary, but the ERML is heavy handed as hell.

Small clan mechs are already suffering so, unless PGI intends for the PIR to be the #1 small mech on the clan side, please throw us a bone and leave the ER Small alone, and make the ERML sit between the IS ML and ERML when it comes to DPH. If you want to keep at that damage, at least make it worthwhile.

[Lances107]

You know I like the idea of laser reflective armor allot and if they added in the ballistic variant too. You could actually negate the overwhelming strength of many of these weapons currently IS and clan side. Its a hell of allot better then nerfing which will lead to more nerfing. Also could lead to unnerfing some builds.

Though they would have to fix omnis, holy **** buff something damn, allow omnis to keep the quirks based on there ct/variant, even when changing out pods. Secondly allow omnis to change armor, structure, and heat sinks but not engine. You would have to rework the omni assaults to make them competivie. Especially the art on the direwolf and warhawk. They look like a squashed box. Sorry guys but they suck badly. The only one that comes close to not is the Blood asp, but they put the four missile one, with the missiles in the torsos, as a hero/champion variant. Kinda of killed that mech as effective in my book. Then again this would be more work then just trashing the game with more nerfs.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

Do you think PGI will want to continuously slap C&Ds every time a modder replicates the DLC content into a free package?

I doubt it, it is just an option they have.

[MovinTarget]

Quandoo, on 09 July 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

WTF is this patch about? IS mechs are already better if you are good at positioning.
Less heat, less duration are WAY SUPERIOR to range. Most of the time you wont need the higher range anyway. And if you do, you are probably the usless sniper sitting behind.

Less duration = better pinpoint damage. And pinpoint is superior to all kind of spread damage.
500dmg with AC guns means 2-3 kills but 500dmg with streaks means a cored mech.

Better go ahead and balance spread damage against pinpoint.
And fix PPCs finally. Heat / damage ratio and projectile size makes those weapons useless.

Its not exactly a patch, it is supposedly the first in a series of PTS roll out so participation is voluntary (badges for each PTS) for be a nice incentive and proof of participation btw)

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bud Crue, on 09 July 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

Weapon Recoil added to all weapons.

All weapons will also be subject to ghost heat if more than 1 of any type is fired.

I am offended you did not include my idea of adding screen shake to clan DHS! This is the best possible way to achieve ultimate balance.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I'm interested in what McGrail18's opinion might be! I hope he posts soon!

[Poltuhgeist]

So...
I mean the game should just stick with all the original BT TT weapon damge range etc. Itll work itself out some how.

but...
Why is skirmish, assault, and conquest the TWO rotating modes

[IllCaesar]

Mystere, on 08 July 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

My only issue with this is: Why would I ever even bother buying anything else from the very same developer who created this abomination in the first place?

Because there's actually a pretty good framework and the worst aspects of MWO are all actually nerfs implemented to curb certain builds. There's a good game here buried under the ghost heat, the gauss charge, etc.

Edited by IllCaesar, 09 July 2018 - 12:19 PM.

[MovinTarget]

IllCaesar, on 09 July 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Because there's actually a pretty good framework and the worst aspects of MWO are all actually nerfs implemented to curb certain builds. There's a good game here buried under the ghost heat, the gauss charge, etc.

Plus *much* of the salt is over PvP aspects that would not be present in MW5...

Speaking of which, I used to drop a TON with my Death Merchants buddies in MW4 in multiplayer... I'm trying to remember how that experience compared to MWO. Granted I preferred to play NHUA with roflbuilds so "balance" kinda went out the window...

[Daurock]

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Mediums and lights in general could use a buff, it's heavy/assaultfest now. I actually like that IS has more armor, it makes them different from clans, if anything I want armor to stay there. As for agility, I'm not sure, I wish there was more brawling though...
When IS got new missiles and ballistics for civil war clans got lasers, I actually see lasers as integral part of clan gameplay where IS has to be more varied. I don't like IS lasers and see them as sidearms when you have extra heat to spare. With lasers, if you replace extra free tonnage lasers get over heavier weapons with DHS they would still be hotter than ballistics or missiles and heat is often the limit even on medium mechs. I don't really see anything to replace them at medium range, clans don't have alternatives to MRMs or RACs to provide good damage/weight (even with spread) other than lasers as ATMs are too gimmicky. If those nerfs get out I'm not sure we'll see more variety on larger mechs as those already use AC and UAC stacks but I'm certain we'll see even less variety of light and medium mechs.
At close range both sides already use all weapons available it's just close range and brawling go toe to toe thus you don't see small lasers often.

When I look at clan mechs in general, (Ignoring for the moment IS mechs) I find very few mechs at the top level in any tonnage range that don't have some combination of c-ERLL, c-ERML, c-HLL, and Gauss. (Honestly, I can probably count them on one hand, and half of those are MG-Lights) That's Pigeon-Holing a third the mechs currently on the field to using a very small weapon set. The developers have made it VERY clear that they DON'T want to buff 3/4 of the clan weapons to get them to the level of the 4 weapons mentioned above. Therefore, if we want more clan mech diversity, (And in my opinion, we do.) the only option left available is to apply the nerf stick to the over-performing weapons, so that others become more viable in comparison. I agree though, that a lot of mechs that previously relied on that damage could easily get left behind. Things like the Nova, Viper, and even the Hellbringer itself could get left in the dust due to those mechs having otherwise mediocre at best capabilities. Maybe my faith is misplaced, but i for one believe that those mechs that do fall behind have a chance to actually receive quirks, especially in the durability department.


With respect to the Clan's Lack of RACs and MRMs - I'm not gonna dispute that clan could use a "Heavy" Direct fire Missile system. (Something like a Dumb-Fire ATM copy like they did with CACs with more velocity than a standard ATM would be welcomed IMO.) The thing is though, clans have 40 or so weapons, most of which are pretty decent if one actually cares to use them. The chassis that hold those weapons, however, are still bad, when compared to similar builds on the IS side, and that's why they are avoided. This leaves the situation where Half of the clan player base floats to the half a dozen or so weapons that make up Vomit Builds, because they stand above the other 30 some weapons, and things get stale. Once we get more clanners actually using their entire tech base, we might actually see "which clan mechs are overall good and bad," and not "which clan mechs make a good Laser/Gauss Vomit", and apply the quirk stick accordingly.


At the end of the day though, if you honestly believe that clan mechs SHOULD gravitate towards a select few laser and gauss weapons, I guess you and I will just have to simply disagree there.

[Hal Greaves]

Daurock, on 09 July 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

When I look at clan mechs in general, (Ignoring for the moment IS mechs) I find very few mechs at the top level in any tonnage range that don't have some combination of c-ERLL, c-ERML, c-HLL, and Gauss. (Honestly, I can probably count them on one hand, and half of those are MG-Lights) That's Pigeon-Holing a third the mechs currently on the field to using a very small weapon set. The developers have made it VERY clear that they DON'T want to buff 3/4 of the clan weapons to get them to the level of the 4 weapons mentioned above. Therefore, if we want more clan mech diversity, (And in my opinion, we do.) the only option left available is to apply the nerf stick to the over-performing weapons, so that others become more viable in comparison. I agree though, that a lot of mechs that previously relied on that damage could easily get left behind. Things like the Nova, Viper, and even the Hellbringer itself could get left in the dust due to those mechs having otherwise mediocre at best capabilities. Maybe my faith is misplaced, but i for one believe that those mechs that do fall behind have a chance to actually receive quirks, especially in the durability department.


With respect to the Clan's Lack of RACs and MRMs - I'm not gonna dispute that clan could use a "Heavy" Direct fire Missile system. (Something like a Dumb-Fire ATM copy like they did with CACs with more velocity than a standard ATM would be welcomed IMO.) The thing is though, clans have 40 or so weapons, most of which are pretty decent if one actually cares to use them. The chassis that hold those weapons, however, are still bad, when compared to similar builds on the IS side, and that's why they are avoided. This leaves the situation where Half of the clan player base floats to the half a dozen or so weapons that make up Vomit Builds, because they stand above the other 30 some weapons, and things get stale. Once we get more clanners actually using their entire tech base, we might actually see "which clan mechs are overall good and bad," and not "which clan mechs make a good Laser/Gauss Vomit", and apply the quirk stick accordingly.


At the end of the day though, if you honestly believe that clan mechs SHOULD gravitate towards a select few laser and gauss weapons, I guess you and I will just have to simply disagree there.

Clans have very little good ability to brawl at this point in time, and you can really see it in FP matches. Naturally, this game is being balanced around QP entirely, and that much is obvious. QP is where you can play peak and poke and have some success with a clan mech.. FP you'll get ran over. Entirely. Because clans have absolutely no option to counter an armor wall anymore, other than doing some fancy movements and coordinating strategy. Which isn't so much a problem for me, persay.. But not so coordinated units will quickly leave in frustration, and turn FP into a real ghost town.

[Ripper X]

PTS most likely will be a failure.

No incentives for people to populate it. There should be event rewards that carry over to the live server.

Too many modes that will split the few people that go. Should be Skirmish Solo QP only and at least 6v6.

Most people will pick clan mechs. No way to properly see how the clan changes stack up to IS. Should be Clan vs IS and a way to see the populations dropping in those factions. The event should cover IS and Clan separately so people can pick either.

Edited by Ripper X, 09 July 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[SFC174]

Daurock, on 09 July 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

This is Hyperbole. The mech I have that is hardest hit by the proposed changes, (My 2xHLL+4xERML, 25 DHS Vomit Hellbringer) Will still bring Superior Sustained DPS, and Superior Alpha when compared to my closest IS equilavent, a 3LL+4ERML, 19 DHS Grasshopper. Plus it still has ECM, and runs marginally faster. The Clan advantages in DHS and XL engines are still very real.

To be fair, the Damage / Tic does move from about the same, to notably worse than said grasshopper, but that's pretty easily fixable with a simple burn time change. (Moving the HLL from 1.55s to 1.3s, and a similar change to the ERML for example, pretty much gets the damage/tic numbers of the two builds on an equal level) After that, we can get to removing the God-Quirks found on many IS mechs, and you might have an actual reason to buff some of the non-meta clan mechs.

Bottom line, I feel like the Changes, while hopefully not finished, (I'd like to see a burn time buff to most of these proposed lasers to get them on the same damage/tic level as most IS lasers) are much closer to being sensible than most realize. Honesty, this assumes that we'll be Some reductions in some IS quirks, but since a quirk removal for many IS mechs has been a goal for PGI for quite a while, i feel this is a relatively safe assumption.

I would suggest a better comparison would be my favorite IS lasvomit mech, the WHM-6D vs. HBR. Both running 3 ERLL and 5 ERML

WHM is 5 tons heavier (which is about right with the FW tonnage disparity), gets a 10% range quirk and some nice structure quirks. Runs both torso and arm mounts. 300 LFE means it only runs 70 kph. 20 heatsinks vs. 22 heatsinks for the HBR.

The WHM trades some speed for an extra 25% structural durability vs. the HBR so I think those offset. The 10% range quirk compensates for the Clan longer range weapons. The HBR gets the 2 heatsinks and ECM.

So the question really comes down to, are the weapon differences fair given how close they are?

The WHM will do an alpha of 52. Post nerf the HBR will do an alpha of 56.25 However, the post nerf ERLL will have a cycle time 20% longer with 33% more heat. The ERML will have 7% longer cycle time with 25% more heat.

Feel free to check my numbers but I don't think this is balanced and that's before even considering the superior IS skill tree structure (much better laser duration and heat gen reductions when you skill up). The IS mech will put more damage on target per tick (meaning easier to focus a component), will have a far better heat dissipation ratio, and its a far more durable machine. Even trading at 800m in a peek battle I think the WHM will win out (meaning both mechs only reveal when ready to fire which takes away the cycle time advantage) due to superior durability. In a more open battle where you can't find cover between alphas, the WHM advantages would be bigger. If you completely removed the WHM quirks and the IS skill tree advantages, maybe it would be close. Trading 12% speed, 10% range, ECM and 10% heat dissipation for 30% less heat and 10%+ cycle time reduction might work.

But I really don't see PGI releasing massive lasvom nerfs on the clan side and completely removing quirks on the IS side at the same time. Especially when other clan weapons aren't being nerfed at this time. Releasing these kind of nerfs will kill Clan participation for months and I believe will permanently damage it regardless of what comes next.

[Nightnovaa]

soooo all this is coming down the line because a direwolf can boat a 95 alpha...
I'm sorry but wth/wtf about the MRM 120 boats?! meanbaby what? mauler what?!

why the hell do you have to nerf ALL clan lasers? just nerf the fricking mech then! you could have done that to the KD3 but no let's screw over all clan builds that use uacs instead of just putting nerfs to the KD3.

[Tarl Cabot]

Tarl Cabot, on 06 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

snip...

Sorry, I could not resist. As for the cERML/CERSL maybe this is them underbidding, allowing them to increase it based on the rage/negatively of the threads to show they are willing to "Meet" us in the middle.....

Just replying to my own post. Do many of you believe that if PGI reduced the damage by a smaller amount for the PTS that this thread and other threads be any different than what we are seeing now, seriously? imho, only a few posts would be different, siding with PGI while the rest would still be moaning and griping about it..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 09 July 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 July 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

Just replying to my own post. Do many of you believe that if PGI reduced the damage by a smaller amount for the PTS that this thread and other threads be any different than what we are seeing now, seriously? imho, only a few posts would be different, siding with PGI while the rest would still be moaning and griping about it..

You might be right, but personally... i wouldn’t have made a comment on pre-pts... I would have waited till after the real patch went to live servers... then I would have complained.

But now, as it stands, I have to complain pre-pts, during pts, and then after live injection

[SFC174]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 July 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:

Just replying to my own post. Do many of you believe that if PGI reduced the damage by a smaller amount for the PTS that this thread and other threads be any different than what we are seeing now, seriously? imho, only a few posts would be different, siding with PGI while the rest would still be moaning and griping about it..

I'm on the record for quite some time now as saying that the Clan ERML needs to be dropped to 6 dmg with at least a 10% cooldown and heat reduction (I would prefer 15% to actually improve DPS slightly). I also believe that Clan HLL needs to be dropped by 2 dmg with a 10% reduction in heat and cooldown. This would drop the most common Clan lasvomit build (2 HLL 4 ERML) alpha by 12.5% which I think is very fair and would give the Clan mechs a little more flexibility in terms of engagement time. The Alpha could go back up with the addition of another ERML and loss of a heatsink, but this would make the mech noticeably hotter than even the current setup.

There is absolutely no reason to nerf CSPL, CMPL or to go lower dmg on CERLL or CLPL. And in fact I believe CSPL should get a small dmg buff (at least to 4.5 dmg, if not 5). I can support a limited change to ERML and HLL dmg with some dps changes too, but not this blanket, across the board nerf.